EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:And no one wants to acknowledge the cap space brought DDV. Got it.

I could be wrong but I think we had the MLE regardless. Can't really equate getting DDV b/c we traded Obi.

DDV's contract is way above the MLE. Four years $50 million. Obi signed for about 7 million this year, 9 next. Reading MLE max is $5 million. That is if you are over the Luxury Tax Threshold. Knicks didn't want to go there. Reading articles at the time the two moves were clearly coordinated.

Anyway, I know folks don't like to let go of narratives, but "Obi for 2 seconds was a shizz job" is just a lame analysis.

I'm done!

it was a MLE contract. That $5mm number is for tax payers which Knicks were not. We did not have cap space. Not sure if Obi helped avoid tax or not.

Once we used MLE, we were hard capped at 172mm. The Obi dump allowed us to drop to about $162mm of salary leaving room to navigate the season and make trades leading up to the trade deadline. It didn’t provide cap space but it provided flexibility below the Hard Cap.

Yeah I was wrong about the MLE but it absolutely seems the two moves were done in tandem. Anyway, no one is changing their take around here!

Now let's make him and his teammates look bad please....

SupremeCommander wrote:I don't really care that we moved on from Toppin. What I do care about id not identifying someone in the offseason to take his spot. Sure, that player would have been sidelined by some of our other acquisitions. But we sure could use a PF/C with a pulse right now

we did though, Jhart and OG were those guys, and we've been phenomenal with those 2 at the PF spot instead. Precious was the insurance, the issue is all the other injuries.

Some people got caught up in wanting a traditional 4 but Jhart is better at the PF than any other "big" we have. Obi was 6'9 but played like a guard on the boards.

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

The main point, look at the back of our rotation. We’ve got nothing. Look at the picks we’ve moved in salary dumps and the players that were available. You don’t think they could help this team now? Not getting anything back for Obi is hurting us now. Not getting a viable young player back in a Grimes or Fournier trade is hurting us now. Not drafting for years. Leon and WWW are still learning on the job and nepotism is a big part of how they run things. First they were calling it relationships, not they just come right out and say it ‘family first’. It’s like we are being run be sports mafia wannabees

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

Rookie wrote:
We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

I think the zero depth is largely a result of Randle, Robinson, and Bogdanovic being hurt and out for the playoffs. The Knicks planned quite well and on paper we were 2 quality players deep at every position. When you typically have an 8 player rotation, we already had 2 deeper than what you need.

I prefer to call our bench G-League superstars. :)

The Knicks did a fine job adding depth - it's just that at this time Thibs has his guys playing elite D and doesn't want to add unknown quantities to the mix. Basically, without Randle, we've had to resort to this scrappy brand of basketball that requires a lot of intricate rotation and switching - and so long as our players give effort on D and rebounding, he'll still to that group. And unless one of the teams gets a huge lead, he'd rather not mess with the rotation.

If it came down to it, Burks, Milton, and Sims have significant NBA service time and we should trust them as quality depth. They're bench players, so we should expect them to have the same level of consistency as you'd expect out of a starter.

The thing with the Pacers is that they're vulnerable if you run on them and you can get high percentage shots in the paint if you push. I was surprised that Hart kept pushing the pace - and I think the Pacers were taken off guard as well.

nycericanguy wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

i suspect if you take away most teams starting C, starting PF, and bench scorer in Bogs, they won't have much depth either. Especially come playoff time when rotations are shortened. Reg season we prob play Sims, Burks and Milton, but now is much harder.

Where we lost depth was the OG trade, but we'll replenish this summer with picks and FA's.

Jalen Williams - 2022 NBA draft picked 12th by OKC. NYK had the 11th pick in that draft and selected Ousmane Dieng but ultimately traded out of the draft in a salary dump. We also traded 2 2nd rd picks - 2023 & 2024.

There is no magic eraser for bad signings in the NBA. You pay eventually. Our lack of tools to build depth have caught up to us. Deuce McBribe - 2021 picked 36 was the last time we have drafted

KnickDanger wrote:

Rookie wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

i suspect if you take away most teams starting C, starting PF, and bench scorer in Bogs, they won't have much depth either. Especially come playoff time when rotations are shortened. Reg season we prob play Sims, Burks and Milton, but now is much harder.

Where we lost depth was the OG trade, but we'll replenish this summer with picks and FA's.

Jalen Williams - 2022 NBA draft picked 12th by OKC. NYK had the 11th pick in that draft and selected Ousmane Dieng but ultimately traded out of the draft in a salary dump. We also traded 2 2nd rd picks - 2023 & 2024.

There is no magic eraser for bad signings in the NBA. You pay eventually. Our lack of tools to build depth have caught up to us. Deuce McBribe - 2021 picked 36 was the last time we have drafted

I'm sorry, but this is what you think about your team when they are one game up in the second round of the playoffs? I'll say it again - to each their own!

Everything you do in the offseason - the draft, FA, Preseason, the trade deadline, each trade - is all in preparation for this moment - The Playoffs. I love my team, but we could have been more prepared for the playoffs in terms of our bench. We are down to 7 usable players on a roster of 15 players. I just keep pointing out all of the missed chances we had to add better depth to the roster that we missed on. Trading Obi Toppin for absolutely zero, nada, squazzole is a glaring example of a wasted opportunity to send out a young useful role player and to get a young useful role player in return. I would consider that an equal return. Gift wrapping him to the team of his choice for absolutely no return is bad look. You disagree you want to see rainbows and unicorns I get it. We are playing great basketball right now. That's great, but being down to 7 usable players, not so great.

Rookie wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

Rookie wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

i suspect if you take away most teams starting C, starting PF, and bench scorer in Bogs, they won't have much depth either. Especially come playoff time when rotations are shortened. Reg season we prob play Sims, Burks and Milton, but now is much harder.

Where we lost depth was the OG trade, but we'll replenish this summer with picks and FA's.

Jalen Williams - 2022 NBA draft picked 12th by OKC. NYK had the 11th pick in that draft and selected Ousmane Dieng but ultimately traded out of the draft in a salary dump. We also traded 2 2nd rd picks - 2023 & 2024.

There is no magic eraser for bad signings in the NBA. You pay eventually. Our lack of tools to build depth have caught up to us. Deuce McBribe - 2021 picked 36 was the last time we have drafted

I'm sorry, but this is what you think about your team when they are one game up in the second round of the playoffs? I'll say it again - to each their own!

Everything you do in the offseason - the draft, FA, Preseason, the trade deadline, each trade - is all in preparation for this moment - The Playoffs. I love my team, but we could have been more prepared for the playoffs in terms of our bench. We are down to 7 usable players on a roster of 15 players. I just keep pointing out all of the missed chances we had to add better depth to the roster that we missed on. Trading Obi Toppin for absolutely zero, nada, squazzole is a glaring example of a wasted opportunity to send out a young useful role player and to get a young useful role player in return. I would consider that an equal return. Gift wrapping him to the team of his choice for absolutely no return is bad look. You disagree you want to see rainbows and unicorns I get it. We are playing great basketball right now. That's great, but being down to 7 usable players, not so great.

Our bench is deep, we just are dealing with an anomaly of an injury situation this year that would throttle any team in the league. No one spends first round picks on guys who will be 3rd and 4th string players when full health. We have a bunch of tools to replenish the depth - two first round picks and the MLE and we are going to be too deep where Josh will be complaining about his mins again.

You are acting as if teams stash good players 3rd/4th string on their rosters just in case multiple guys go down at the same position. Doesn't happen.

nycericanguy wrote:

Rookie wrote:<snip>
Jalen Williams - 2022 NBA draft picked 12th by OKC. NYK had the 11th pick in that draft and selected Ousmane Dieng but ultimately traded out of the draft in a salary dump. We also traded 2 2nd rd picks - 2023 & 2024.

There is no magic eraser for bad signings in the NBA. You pay eventually. Our lack of tools to build depth have caught up to us. Deuce McBribe - 2021 picked 36 was the last time we have drafted

you mean the trade that led to us getting Brunson?

the trade that got us MIL's top 4 protected pick next year? and 2 other protected firsts?

OKC made a great pick, but that was a great trade for us.

I agree that we made some interesting moves, all with the intent of making room to sign Brunson. Check, we got a superstar PG!

NOW... let's just take a look at that OKC trade.
They said, "We want Dieng." We said we want picks. They said fine: OKC traded 3 protected 1st round picks for the #11 pick.

Here's the thing:
OKC also had the #12 pick, which they used to draft Jalen Williams.

OKC got 2 guys that wanted bad - they lucked out in that the one that they wanted less has turned into a really solid player/potential all-star in Williams. (Yes, Dieng has shown every indication of being a bust.)

At the time, the Knicks had RJ, Grimes, Fournier, and Reddish... enough young prospects at the wing.

Anyway, I don't think the Knicks have made many dud moves lately, other than drafting Obi. The thing is that if Obi were really that good in the eyes of NBA pros, we'd have gotten much more for him much sooner, especially when Randle emerged as an all-NBA sort of player.