technomaster wrote:

martin wrote:Don’t hate me for being the messenger.

We all hate Elf because he is such a bad shooter, among other things.

You compare Elf’s shooting stats for the season to RJ’s and it’s relatively similar and it ain’t pretty

Well, we ignored the first 10 games of the season, decided they were an aberration when RJ went on a 10 or so game run of shooting 50-40-85 and said aha, that’s the real RJ. Then he literally fell off a cliff against Miami and just hasn’t produced much in 4 games. It’s like he’s channeling his inner Kevin Knox.

We’ll assume he’s quietly nursing some injury, no doubt associated with an absurd workload to start the season. For a guy to go from averaging like 38mpg then suddenly averaging low 20s, it’s odd that he’d go out of the coach’s favor so quick. Or maybe they finally looked at the advanced analytics.

This is all fair. I hope the 50-40-80 is more the baseline than anything

EwingsGlass wrote:

Panos wrote:SO interesting looking back at this thread after 3 short months. What a trajectory this kid has been on... Is everyone onboard now, or are there still skeptics?

I've increased his upside in my head. He's also outperformed his current expectations -- that just makes me happy. Now, he has to do it with volume and be able to continue to adjust as teams adjust to him. Rinse. Repeat.

Think it was fair to have some doubts. As I did. The kid did not show elite quickness or ability to get above the rim. His shot mechanics did not look very good. He had trouble finishing around the basket and had a tough time shooting from the foul line. The thing I underestimated was his desire to improve and his work ethic. Do not read enough about a players' time in the film room but I can imagine that he puts in a lot of time in there as well. All in all, I am super glad he is proving me wrong. There is no good prediction of where he will end up. Hoping it is the highest level.

Nalod wrote:Martin,

Funny you posted a pic of Oscar as I was thinking his build when younger was similar to RJ’s. Remember Oscar was a 4 year NCAA player before he came to NBA so any comps even physically are just a bit abstract.
Oscar had an awkward almost mechanical shooting form. RJ is very mechanical. Oscar was physical in the paint. RJ at 20 years old is very much.
Now before anyone goes off saying I’m nuts for doing this I am not by any stretch saying RJ can be an alltime great. In fact. Oscar if he played in the present might be closer to Mudiay than what he was given how much the game has evolved. My point is RJ was fully 3 years younger than Oscar was when he came in the league and while not fluid like Kobe, it is very premature to consider putting a floor or ceiling on RJ. I’m impressed by RJ’s body control, ability to finish at the rim, draw fouls and creating space on his shot.

And his availability is also overlooked. I believe there was a stat where RJ was the only nba player to not miss a game? Some kind of iron stat that shows his work ethics and discipline to prepare himself physically and me mentally. His approach to every game, just my guess, has been nba ready. He has too many close nba influential mentors surrounding him.

His 3 point shot is actually pretty now. Drew Hanlen deserves a big payday from all the players he’s helped out.

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:Keep in mind, this thread was started the day after RJ posted a 9 pt. game off 4-14 shooting, 0-3 on threes and 1-3 from the free throw line. Likely yet another emotion overreaction. The lesson should be don't anoint players as future hall of famers after a monster game or consider them trash after a bad game. Give it some time both ways.

For me, it wasn't. Still stand with all of points I made.

Well, it sounds you're now in the "can't admit I may have been wrong or premature" mode. If you honestly are still not a long term buyer of RJ's potential, I don't know what to say. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

So perhaps we should get level to what I was actually speaking to. RJ has lots of potential but it’s the high end of that I still have doubts on. His feel for the game and some of his instincts are average at best.

If you want more clarifications on what I was speaking to, feel free to ask.

Let me know what you think of RJ’s game and where it tops out for you.

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:Keep in mind, this thread was started the day after RJ posted a 9 pt. game off 4-14 shooting, 0-3 on threes and 1-3 from the free throw line. Likely yet another emotion overreaction. The lesson should be don't anoint players as future hall of famers after a monster game or consider them trash after a bad game. Give it some time both ways.

For me, it wasn't. Still stand with all of points I made.

Well, it sounds you're now in the "can't admit I may have been wrong or premature" mode. If you honestly are still not a long term buyer of RJ's potential, I don't know what to say. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

So perhaps we should get level to what I was actually speaking to. RJ has lots of potential but it’s the high end of that I still have doubts on. His feel for the game and some of his instincts are average at best.

If you want more clarifications on what I was speaking to, feel free to ask.

Let me know what you think of RJ’s game and where it tops out for you.

He's 20 years old, two years in the league on this third coach after only spending one year in college. He may never be a smooth Kobe imitation if that's your expectation. Doesn't mean he can't be a high end player.

Kind of a weird tact you are taking here, as if my opinion needs to be right or wrong or may somehow be relevant to anything RJ himself does.

I'll probably even change it with new information; it was nice to read his shooting coach describe how Fiz and whomever on the coaching staff messed up what they had worked on for so long and kind of coincides with the what unraveled over the past years and beginning of this one.

I don't base my opinion on a game or even a couple of games as you have suggested, that's a BRIGGS thing.

Welpee wrote:Keep in mind, this thread was started the day after RJ posted a 9 pt. game off 4-14 shooting, 0-3 on threes and 1-3 from the free throw line. Likely yet another emotional overreaction. The lesson should be don't anoint players as future hall of famers after a monster game or consider them trash after a bad game. Give it some time both ways.

The Knicks showed patience with RJ, got him good coaching and surrounded him with talent

The Jets did none of those things with Sam Darnold and are going to look really stupid next season