TripleThreat wrote:

There's probably a stronger than none chance the NBA will have another work stoppage and the long term impact might be the financial collapse of the entire league. Which will impact our Knicks. Can't have a team if there is no league.

Some people have said "This is bigger than basketball" , well it could end up that "This has no choice but to be bigger than basketball because basketball as we know it doesn't exist anymore"

On an aside, while people on UltimateKnicks don't always agree, we are all still in the same community. When these verdicts are projected to come out, everyone here should bunker up. Get inside, keep your kids inside, stockpile supplies you need depending on where you live and based on your access to essentials. No one is going to care about your politics, what you've done in this life or who depends on you. They will just drag you out of your car and beat you to death. Burn your business down. Hurt your family. Steal your livelihood. No one is coming to save you. No one is coming to save us. We have to save ourselves. There will be more riots and everyone in this community can proactively find a way to avoid most of it.

Or, you know, they could just do a bit more to stop police brutality and protect black people from police brutality and murder and ensure perpetrators of it are successfully prosecuted (as well as those who collude,lie and cover it up). But some people find this idea so revolutionary, so threatening to their very core, they’d rather spend all their time resisting any meaningful change and refusing to even engage in any meaningful way of tackling the root cause of the issue or even condemning it, through posting endlessly about stores being looted, victims character, Protesters character, hypocrisy, threats of the apocalypse and bankruptcy rather than just sit back and try to empathize for 5 minutes with people who have to live with police brutality and systemic racism every single day for all of their lives.

It’s not exactly and unreasonable or big ask. Much as I love the Knicks, they’re far, far down the list of priorities as far as this issue is concerned. This s*** has been going on way, way, way too long. Its the year 2020, its outrageous we’ve still got this stuff going, that people have to live this.

I wasn’t going to post anymore about anything but basketball until I saw this this am. I understand people disturbed abd angry with police. But police does not equal white person. Police are police. A white guy walking down the street doing nothing doesn’t deserve to be blindsided by a brick— looks like prompted by older guys. Tgis will create chaos— tgis is not a protest — tgis is on the same level of violence that has bee. Protested. Or frankly perhaps even worse. This is not a police issue tgis is a guy minding his own business walking down the street?

GustavBahler wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:The players made their point with the walkout, and still have their platform.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/espn/status/1300271584381345792

I honestly don't know how players have been able to lock in on these games- proud of what they're doing on and off the court

“People wanted our blood running in the streets.”

You’ve probably seen the ad in question: it’s infamous. In 1989, a white investment banker was raped and left for dead in Central Park. Five black and brown teenagers, including 15-year-old Salaam, were charged with her rape. Two weeks after the attack, before any of the kids had faced trial, Trump took out a full-page advert in multiple New York papers calling for the death penalty. His inflammatory stunt is credited with prejudicing public opinion and contributing to the Central Park Five – now known as the Exonerated Five – going to prison for something they didn’t do. The boys’ story was retold last year in the Emmy-winning Netflix drama When They See Us, directed by Ava DuVernay.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/morganstephensa/status/1141099467938177032

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/326962250143371264

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/06/19/what-trump-has-said-central-park-five/1501321001/

When asked by a Twitter user how Trump felt that the five men who were convicted of the crime were actually innocent, Trump in a tweet on June 29, 2013 responded: "Innocent of what-how many people did they mugg?"

BRIGGS wrote:https://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2020/08/31/baltimore-brick-attack-sharp-leadenhall-latest/amp/

BRIGGS this literally has nothing to do with anything. No more please.

smackeddog wrote:Or, you know, they could just do a bit more to stop police brutality and protect black people from police brutality and murder and ensure perpetrators of it are successfully prosecuted (as well as those who collude,lie and cover it up). But some people find this idea so revolutionary, so threatening to their very core, they’d rather spend all their time resisting any meaningful change and refusing to even engage in any meaningful way of tackling the root cause of the issue or even condemning it, through posting endlessly about stores being looted, victims character, Protesters character, hypocrisy, threats of the apocalypse and bankruptcy rather than just sit back and try to empathize for 5 minutes with people who have to live with police brutality and systemic racism every single day for all of their lives.

It’s not exactly and unreasonable or big ask. Much as I love the Knicks, they’re far, far down the list of priorities as far as this issue is concerned. This s*** has been going on way, way, way too long. Its the year 2020, its outrageous we’ve still got this stuff going, that people have to live this.

The question becomes, and has never been actually discussed in this thread, what could have the NBA players and the NBPA done better or done more effectively in this situation?

( I actually waited a little while to see if anyone would surprise me, but alas, not the case here)

If I was hired as a high level public relations/crisis management firm by the NBPA to handle this, this is what I would do

1) I would have never let one player ( George Hill ) nor one team (the Bucks) make a decision that impacted the entire roster of all players. Well probably well meaning, Hill put his NBA brethren in an impossible position. People are going to back up one of their own. That's just how it works in teams. Any team really. Also many players were not even in the bubble, so you have one guy leading his team, thus leading the teams left in the bubble, thus leading teams and players not even in the bubble.

2) I would have never let a strike happen without a full vote of every player on every roster. Also without the backing of Michele Roberts and the NBPA. These guy didn't do it together, hence the arguments that night among themselves.

3) As a matter of optics, I would have never allowed the players to galvanize around Jacob Blake. Not before a toxicology report and certainly not to associate the NBA and the NBPA and the players with a wife beater. This was ****ing stupid. There is no other soft way to describe it

4) I would have never let the players back onto the court basically a day later if they did choose to strike in the worst way possible. Once the toothpaste comes out, you can't get it back into the tube

5) I would never let the players go on strike without a specific goal or a set of specific goals that were achievable within the framework of the owners, the league administration, the network and the brands normally linked to the league. Saying "This must end" doesn't work. How can anyone fix that? Saying, "I want X number of black officers patrolling these high density black areas in these cities" is something everyone around the players could work for and looks possible.

6) I would make it clear you can't just make an open enemy with all of law enforcement. There are cops who work overtime at the arenas, they protect the team buses, they work events all over the city where the players do charity work, they patrol the neighborhoods where the players and their families live. The internal security for each team are usually retired law enforcement. The leagues own internal security is retired law enforcement. It's not smart, it's not practical, it doesn't make any ****ing sense at all.

Here is the solution

A) NBA players move forward and publicly announce that they want people in general to stop rioting. It's only going to damage essential needs during the pandemic in areas that can afford to lose them the least. They make a simple statement that sometimes NBA players do horrible things or make the wrong choice, but it's reflective of a handful of players, not the entirety of the league. And that it's the same for law enforcement. There are going to be some cops who should not be cops and do things that are not reflective to their oath to their communities, but by and large, most cops are just regular people like everyone else, most are just trying to do their best and serve their communities. And this is true. One NBA player beating his wife isn't proof all NBA players are bad. That there are some bad police don't earmark each and every cop in America.

B) Since NBA players don't have a goal, but clearly the only thing that sparks them to this level is police shootings, then what can be done about that? Two things. Getting more black officers hired to patrol heavily black neighborhoods. And additional training for all police officers regarding use of force and dealing with minorities. These are resource management problems at heart. The NBA teams and the NBA players cough up some money. They ask for matching from the networks, the brands, etc, etc. In exchange, law enforcement is a better position cost wise to hire more black officers. They won't have a problem since it increases their manpower, which makes their jobs safer. Also it means more black cops dealing with black problems. Law enforcement will see the benefit of less risk of future situations like this, less of a potential hit on their general image and less of a chance for more of this rioting. It lines up with a form of community policing.

Does anyone here have a problem with more black cops being hired to specifically police these black neighborhoods. Anyone? Does anyone here have a problem with all law enforcement getting more specific training in use of force and dealing with minorities? Anyone?

This **** costs money. If NBA players have a problem with it, they need to help with some of the costs and some of the fund raising. You can't demand police reform without looking into the logistics ( how much does it cost to hire and train a police officer) and the resource management part of the equation ( what will prevent more incidents like this)

C) In exchange, law enforcement will create a system where ALL minorities are given an opportunity to advocate for their community and their specific issues with each agencies command staff once a month. The requests and issues are made public. Essentially where community voices are vetted then allowed to push for their individual community causes.

In exchange, right or wrong, law enforcement burns one cop at the altar for each of the major incidents. Derek Chauvin convicted on all charges, etc.

In exchange, law enforcement begins to create new standards to fire officers for lack of performance metrics. Fitness, continuing education, number of reviewed use of force incidents, etc, etc. Also ask federal law enforcement to create oversight over state and local police to review conduct. Essentially formulate a checks and balances system that is not draconian and punitive.

D) LeBron James, Chris Paul, Andre Igoudala, Udonis Haslem, George Hill and Michele Roberts all do use of force training that is public. I posted a few videos some replies back here showing this. Allow the public to see the complexities of use of force for law enforcement.

E) The owners of NBA teams start a non profit to build grocery stores with pharmacies inside to be placed in poor areas where minorities struggle to find a localized place to get food, essentials and medicine. This will also give many people in the area jobs. It's an investment into improving the communities. NBA players can led themselves and their brands to support this. Klay Thompson shows up and signs some autographs, bags groceries for an hour, then does a basketball workshop for some kids. For owners, it's a tax writeoff and good PR. Local law enforcement will see that NBA players and the NBA are investing into their communities, making the pathway to compromise easier. Attach a small community center to the stores where kids can play and learn basketball. Everyone wins. You create new fans. You entrench the NBA in a way that MLB and the NFL does not. It's good for community and it's good for business.

If you want fewer black people shot by cops, you can't make enemies of law enforcement. This is what Charles Barkley was talking about, that you can't just get rid of all the cops, that makes no sense, and that you need action and less words and less **** written on the court and on jerseys.

That's five minutes from me. In five minutes, I've actually created a framework of a plan. One more real plan than the NBPA did.

As for how the players actually turned out. They had one shot at this and they ****ed it all up. You can't walk out without a plan, without any real goals, without solidarity then decide to play again in 24 hours after backing a wife beater. No one who actually makes decisions is going to take them seriously now. They have no one to blame but themselves.

If your sink breaks, and you can't fix it, you hire a plumber. If you get sued, and you don't know the law, you hire a lawyer. If your tooth breaks, and you can't fix it, you hire a dentist. NBA players are the best at basketball, no one is better. But public policy? Law enforcement training and resource management? Lobbying politicians? Handling the media in a situation like this that needs crisis management? This is the biggest mistake. You hire someone trained to the do the job. Which is why Phil Jackson ****ed up so bad. He wasn't trained or experienced to run a front office. I said the day he was hired that it was a ****ing dumb decision that would end up like ****. You don't ask a baker to fix your car brakes do you?

In five ****ing minutes, I came up with something infinitely better than NBA players did and this isn't even my field of expertise. What does that say?

smackeddog, I don't have a problem with you. But you are raging the same things over and over again without offering any specific solution to your concerns. What have I said for years on this board? Resource management. If you can't get the money/logistics right, you are ****ed before you step onto the court. If anything is consistent about me after posting here all these years, it's that. A pathway towards effective problem solving for the Knicks but a model that can be applied to anything. So here's your chance. Actually offer a resource management solution to have fewer cops shooting black people. Or a resource management solution to end racism as you see it.

You can't just scream, "This needs to stop!" You need to define a goal. You need to question your own resource base. You need to determine who you need to help you and how to influence them in a win/win scenario ( and yes, often using a social version of a Mirror Test) Then you need consider the practicalities of your scenario ( can it be feasibly achieved) Then you act.

What's your specific resource management plan to get what you want?

Is that reasonable? Is that a big ask?

Your ball. See if you can score on me now.

TripleThreat wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Or, you know, they could just do a bit more to stop police brutality and protect black people from police brutality and murder and ensure perpetrators of it are successfully prosecuted (as well as those who collude,lie and cover it up). But some people find this idea so revolutionary, so threatening to their very core, they’d rather spend all their time resisting any meaningful change and refusing to even engage in any meaningful way of tackling the root cause of the issue or even condemning it, through posting endlessly about stores being looted, victims character, Protesters character, hypocrisy, threats of the apocalypse and bankruptcy rather than just sit back and try to empathize for 5 minutes with people who have to live with police brutality and systemic racism every single day for all of their lives.

It’s not exactly and unreasonable or big ask. Much as I love the Knicks, they’re far, far down the list of priorities as far as this issue is concerned. This s*** has been going on way, way, way too long. Its the year 2020, its outrageous we’ve still got this stuff going, that people have to live this.

The question becomes, and has never been actually discussed in this thread, what could have the NBA players and the NBPA done better or done more effectively in this situation?

( I actually waited a little while to see if anyone would surprise me, but alas, not the case here)

If I was hired as a high level public relations/crisis management firm by the NBPA to handle this, this is what I would do

1) I would have never let one player ( George Hill ) nor one team (the Bucks) make a decision that impacted the entire roster of all players. Well probably well meaning, Hill put his NBA brethren in an impossible position. People are going to back up one of their own. That's just how it works in teams. Any team really. Also many players were not even in the bubble, so you have one guy leading his team, thus leading the teams left in the bubble, thus leading teams and players not even in the bubble.

2) I would have never let a strike happen without a full vote of every player on every roster. Also without the backing of Michele Roberts and the NBPA. These guy didn't do it together, hence the arguments that night among themselves.

3) As a matter of optics, I would have never allowed the players to galvanize around Jacob Blake. Not before a toxicology report and certainly not to associate the NBA and the NBPA and the players with a wife beater. This was ****ing stupid. There is no other soft way to describe it

4) I would have never let the players back onto the court basically a day later if they did choose to strike in the worst way possible. Once the toothpaste comes out, you can't get it back into the tube

5) I would never let the players go on strike without a specific goal or a set of specific goals that were achievable within the framework of the owners, the league administration, the network and the brands normally linked to the league. Saying "This must end" doesn't work. How can anyone fix that? Saying, "I want X number of black officers patrolling these high density black areas in these cities" is something everyone around the players could work for and looks possible.

6) I would make it clear you can't just make an open enemy with all of law enforcement. There are cops who work overtime at the arenas, they protect the team buses, they work events all over the city where the players do charity work, they patrol the neighborhoods where the players and their families live. The internal security for each team are usually retired law enforcement. The leagues own internal security is retired law enforcement. It's not smart, it's not practical, it doesn't make any ****ing sense at all.

Here is the solution

A) NBA players move forward and publicly announce that they want people in general to stop rioting. It's only going to damage essential needs during the pandemic in areas that can afford to lose them the least. They make a simple statement that sometimes NBA players do horrible things or make the wrong choice, but it's reflective of a handful of players, not the entirety of the league. And that it's the same for law enforcement. There are going to be some cops who should not be cops and do things that are not reflective to their oath to their communities, but by and large, most cops are just regular people like everyone else, most are just trying to do their best and serve their communities. And this is true. One NBA player beating his wife isn't proof all NBA players are bad. That there are some bad police don't earmark each and every cop in America.

B) Since NBA players don't have a goal, but clearly the only thing that sparks them to this level is police shootings, then what can be done about that? Two things. Getting more black officers hired to patrol heavily black neighborhoods. And additional training for all police officers regarding use of force and dealing with minorities. These are resource management problems at heart. The NBA teams and the NBA players cough up some money. They ask for matching from the networks, the brands, etc, etc. In exchange, law enforcement is a better position cost wise to hire more black officers. They won't have a problem since it increases their manpower, which makes their jobs safer. Also it means more black cops dealing with black problems. Law enforcement will see the benefit of less risk of future situations like this, less of a potential hit on their general image and less of a chance for more of this rioting. It lines up with a form of community policing.

Does anyone here have a problem with more black cops being hired to specifically police these black neighborhoods. Anyone? Does anyone here have a problem with all law enforcement getting more specific training in use of force and dealing with minorities? Anyone?

This **** costs money. If NBA players have a problem with it, they need to help with some of the costs and some of the fund raising. You can't demand police reform without looking into the logistics ( how much does it cost to hire and train a police officer) and the resource management part of the equation ( what will prevent more incidents like this)

C) In exchange, law enforcement will create a system where ALL minorities are given an opportunity to advocate for their community and their specific issues with each agencies command staff once a month. The requests and issues are made public. Essentially where community voices are vetted then allowed to push for their individual community causes.

In exchange, right or wrong, law enforcement burns one cop at the altar for each of the major incidents. Derek Chauvin convicted on all charges, etc.

In exchange, law enforcement begins to create new standards to fire officers for lack of performance metrics. Fitness, continuing education, number of reviewed use of force incidents, etc, etc. Also ask federal law enforcement to create oversight over state and local police to review conduct. Essentially formulate a checks and balances system that is not draconian and punitive.

D) LeBron James, Chris Paul, Andre Igoudala, Udonis Haslem, George Hill and Michele Roberts all do use of force training that is public. I posted a few videos some replies back here showing this. Allow the public to see the complexities of use of force for law enforcement.

E) The owners of NBA teams start a non profit to build grocery stores with pharmacies inside to be placed in poor areas where minorities struggle to find a localized place to get food, essentials and medicine. This will also give many people in the area jobs. It's an investment into improving the communities. NBA players can led themselves and their brands to support this. Klay Thompson shows up and signs some autographs, bags groceries for an hour, then does a basketball workshop for some kids. For owners, it's a tax writeoff and good PR. Local law enforcement will see that NBA players and the NBA are investing into their communities, making the pathway to compromise easier. Attach a small community center to the stores where kids can play and learn basketball. Everyone wins. You create new fans. You entrench the NBA in a way that MLB and the NFL does not. It's good for community and it's good for business.

If you want fewer black people shot by cops, you can't make enemies of law enforcement. This is what Charles Barkley was talking about, that you can't just get rid of all the cops, that makes no sense, and that you need action and less words and less **** written on the court and on jerseys.

That's five minutes from me. In five minutes, I've actually created a framework of a plan. One more real plan than the NBPA did.

As for how the players actually turned out. They had one shot at this and they ****ed it all up. You can't walk out without a plan, without any real goals, without solidarity then decide to play again in 24 hours after backing a wife beater. No one who actually makes decisions is going to take them seriously now. They have no one to blame but themselves.

If your sink breaks, and you can't fix it, you hire a plumber. If you get sued, and you don't know the law, you hire a lawyer. If your tooth breaks, and you can't fix it, you hire a dentist. NBA players are the best at basketball, no one is better. But public policy? Law enforcement training and resource management? Lobbying politicians? Handling the media in a situation like this that needs crisis management? This is the biggest mistake. You hire someone trained to the do the job. Which is why Phil Jackson ****ed up so bad. He wasn't trained or experienced to run a front office. I said the day he was hired that it was a ****ing dumb decision that would end up like ****. You don't ask a baker to fix your car brakes do you?

In five ****ing minutes, I came up with something infinitely better than NBA players did and this isn't even my field of expertise. What does that say?

smackeddog, I don't have a problem with you. But you are raging the same things over and over again without offering any specific solution to your concerns. What have I said for years on this board? Resource management. If you can't get the money/logistics right, you are ****ed before you step onto the court. If anything is consistent about me after posting here all these years, it's that. A pathway towards effective problem solving for the Knicks but a model that can be applied to anything. So here's your chance. Actually offer a resource management solution to have fewer cops shooting black people. Or a resource management solution to end racism as you see it.

You can't just scream, "This needs to stop!" You need to define a goal. You need to question your own resource base. You need to determine who you need to help you and how to influence them in a win/win scenario ( and yes, often using a social version of a Mirror Test) Then you need consider the practicalities of your scenario ( can it be feasibly achieved) Then you act.

What's your specific resource management plan to get what you want?

Is that reasonable? Is that a big ask?

Your ball. See if you can score on me now.

I don't have to or want to tell the players what to do because I trust their judgement- they know way more about this than I do. Have you ever considered- gasp!- you don't actually know as much about this issue as you think you do? Maybe you should try listening more rather than dictating to people that know more about a subject than you do.

You seem to think you're a mastermind on this issue, but your post above indicates the complete opposite- you don't seem to get even the basics, because you don't even understand what the fundamental issue is. Instead you seem to think the onus is on the players to apologize, pay to fix this mess and do police training. The worst line is this one:

If you want fewer black people shot by cops, you can't make enemies of law enforcement.

What the f*** is that?!

Social change, political change isn't a science, it's never been achieved by sitting down and drawing up a ten point plan. You shake a tree, and see what comes loose. Who'd of thought the bus boycotts would end where they did? That the Berlin Wall protests would end where they did? I feel no matter what the players choose to do, people like you would criticize them for it-

protests on the streets? violent looting!
kneeling during the anthem? Unpatriotic slander!
go on strike? they're destroying the economy!
speak out against police violence? they're standing up for a criminal! They're disrespecting our cops!
Say "black lives matter"? Thats racist! What about white lives!

It's tedious and it's endless because it's so disingenuous.

smackeddog wrote:
I don't have to or want to tell the players what to do because I trust their judgement- they know way more about this than I do.

You seem to think you're a mastermind on this issue, but your post above indicates the complete opposite- you don't seem to get even the basics, because you don't even understand what the fundamental issue is. Instead you seem to think the onus is on the players to apologize, pay to fix this mess and do police training.

Social change, political change isn't a science

Look at this. It's WNBA players with Jacob Blake's name front and center. With the WNBA logo not far away.

For a guy who had a warrant out for his arrest for domestic violence and sexual assault, where a woman called the police in desperation because the guy broke in, tried to steal her car and was terrified he'd hurt her/sexually assault her again. A guy previously arrested for being drunk and having a concealed firearm.

The NBA players had no plan, no discussion before, no real stated goals and no backbone ( they caved and agreed to play 24 hours later ) And centered their protest around a ****ing wife beater.

It's really not that hard. Kenosha and it's local politics and police force has no reason to give a **** what NBA players think. However if NBA players are funding the training and hiring of black officers to patrol black neighborhoods, now the NBA players have wedged their way into the politics of the police union. Now their voice is heard because then no one would have a choice. Police unions are critical and their support/concerns are big influences in on how local government operates. If NBA players help to build non profit grocery stores/pharmacies in distressed black neighborhoods, now you have a foothold into the community. Local politics has to hear the voices of it's prominent business owners. If you are running basketball camps in Kenosha, now you have pathway to the kids and the teachers and then push your influence into the teachers unions. Which are also influential in local government. Not only that, but black grocery stores give black people jobs. Giving police departments some of the resources needed to hire black cops to patrol those black neighborhoods give opportunity for young black people to have a career.

If you want policy change in a place like Kenosha, or anywhere, you are going to have a better chance to have influence when you infiltrate their police unions, their teachers unions and become a power player in the local businesses in the area. Now everyone there in local politics has no choice but to pay attention to your concerns and demands and viewpoints.

This is how the game works. You buy influence. But this pathway also CREATES JOBS AND OPPORTUNITY FOR BLACK PEOPLE. And it would be nice if some 70 year old elderly black woman on a fixed income and no car can have a grocery store within walking distance, one that won't be looted and burned down in a riot, so she can buy a little food and her medicine.

What is the fundamental issue here? There's the players side, which is what this thread is all about in the first place and there's your side. The players haven't listed any specific goals. They can influenced owners, but just because Dolan, Gail Miller, Mark Cuban, etc are billionaires doesn't mean they can snap their fingers and change public policy in a place like Kenosha. It makes no sense and it doesn't work that way.

Political change happens through financial leverage. You get this by systematically forcing the power players ( teachers unions, police unions, local businesses, etc) to all want what you want or make your interests their interests.

What's the NBA players fundamental issue? No one knows. They've listed no actual goals. And please no flash back on arenas being voting centers. That's good business by the owners. It shows the arenas are safe again for public traffic/usage. It aligns to their interests and their long term profits. But at least it's a win/win if it's a pathway to get more people to vote.

What is the fundamental issue for you? No one knows. You keep ranting for change, demanding it, but you've listed no specific goals nor any realistic pathway to get there.

If the goal is police reform, you can't go to war with the police. You can't support gutting their budget without careful thought. You can't paint them as the enemy. It will only make them bunker up and resist you even more. If NBA players want police reform, they are going to have to understand what police officers go through, how they are trained, what their conflicts are and what their needs are and then try to find middle ground. Everyone here in their working life, there are going to be excellent people at your job and a lot of average people trying to get by and yes some dip****s. That's everywhere. Should police forces do more to get rid of the dip****s? Yes. But it's not as easy as just you screaming about it. How easy is it or was it for all of you at your workplaces to get rid of those mother****ers? Nothing is ever that simple. The reality is most cops are just regular people, most of them aren't racists and looking to hurt anyone. Some bad apples don't indict the entire group. The way you and some others talk on here, it's like cops are just roaming cities executing every black man, woman and child they see. We all need cops to enforce laws in our cities. Without them it would be chaos. We specifically need good cops. And we need to eliminate dip**** cops. But the pathway to that isn't screaming without a goal. It's not painting them all as villains.

What's the alternative? More riots. Where businesses that give black people jobs in those neighborhoods are burned to the ****ing ground. Where people local to the area don't feel safe to walk around and can't find an accessible place to buy food for their kids? More people getting shot? By offering no solutions, listing no goals, refusing to even look at middle ground, that's exactly what you have chosen.

I want to look at solutions that creates more jobs and careers for black people. I want infrastructure in place to help those communities. I want fewer riots that burn down all hope in these distressed areas. I'd prefer not to see the black elderly walk 3 miles, in each direction, in a city that looks like a warzone just to get their medicine because their pharmacy was looted and torn apart. But I recognize to get that means playing a political long game that some of you don't have the stomach for because it seems too much like "white washing"

You want to rant because it makes you feel better. You trust the judgement of those NBA players because you both think the same way. No solutions. No goals. No plans. No solidarity. No logistics. Not looking at the reality of the situation. In effect, like many of these pro athletes, you are also endorsing a wife beater who likes to sexually assault women and steal their property. If that makes you feel like a hero or woke, I just feel sorry for you.

BigDaddyG wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

smackeddog wrote:
I don't have to or want to tell the players what to do because I trust their judgement- they know way more about this than I do.

You seem to think you're a mastermind on this issue, but your post above indicates the complete opposite- you don't seem to get even the basics, because you don't even understand what the fundamental issue is. Instead you seem to think the onus is on the players to apologize, pay to fix this mess and do police training.

Social change, political change isn't a science

If the goal is police reform, you can't go to war with the police. You can't support gutting their budget without careful thought. You can't paint them as the enemy. It will only make them bunker up and resist you even more. If NBA players want police reform, they are going to have to understand what police officers go through, how they are trained, what their conflicts are and what their needs are and then try to find middle ground. Everyone here in their working life, there are going to be excellent people at your job and a lot of average people trying to get by and yes some dip****s. That's everywhere. Should police forces do more to get rid of the dip****s? Yes. But it's not as easy as just you screaming about it. How easy is it or was it for all of you at your workplaces to get rid of those mother****ers? Nothing is ever that simple. The reality is most cops are just regular people, most of them aren't racists and looking to hurt anyone. Some bad apples don't indict the entire group. The way you and some others talk on here, it's like cops are just roaming cities executing every black man, woman and child they see. We all need cops to enforce laws in our cities. Without them it would be chaos. We specifically need good cops. And we need to eliminate dip**** cops. But the pathway to that isn't screaming without a goal. It's not painting them all as villains.

Ok, stop victim blaming. The issue has never been what Blake did in the past. You know this and it's disingenuous. Police already have police in place on when to draw fire and this was in clear violation of that the man has his back turned. It's hard to justify one shot, nevermind seven. Some bad apples? The FBI has been warning us for years that LEO has been infiltrated by white supremacy groups. That's not too mention the street gangs. Are there good cops, sure. Are there just a few bad apples. You're underselling this big time. This is an issue that has exploded in recent years thanks to the white supremacist we have in the White House. Was George Floyd a saint? Hell no. Was the restraint method used appropriate? No. Chauvin is as scum bag as well. Why not lead off with that? Many police departments advise their soldiers to stay away from the neck as much as possible.

https://en.as.com/en/2020/06/06/other_sports/1591442963_890018.html

In Minneapolis, law enforcement officers were permitted to employ two types of neck hold (carotid neck restraints) on a potential suspect, according to the department's Policy and Procedure manual, but only officers who have received specific training in how to correctly carry them out are permitted to do so.

However, former police officer and co-founder of the Police Policy Studies Council Tom Aveni, who has been involved in training law enforcement officers since 1983, told USA Today: "I have not seen anyone teach the use of a knee to the neck."

Minneapolis obviously doesn't care. No photo op with LeBron James at some staged training or seminar is going to do it. Yes, more training would be good. But many of these departments need to be defunded and rebuilt. You make good points about the need for communities to develop economically and to develop career paths for minorities in law enforcement. Again, that's skirting around the real issue with minorities and law enforcement. LeBron can do more, but his call for the youth to vote is a major boost to the movement. So is the NBA players voice. You live and learn. It sounds like they are communicating better and getting more organized. Sorry if costs you some games. Knicks suck anyway.

One last thing. What got your attention, the threat of not being able to watch basketball or these stories.
https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-kevin-durant-pledges-mammoth-donation-for-the-fight-against-social-injustice-brooklyn-nets/

http://gq.com.au/fitness/sport/patty-mills-will-donate-his-entire-salary-to-black-lives-matter-causes-in-australia/news-story/56116be61ed35d72ac9ae224ad185a27/amp

Maybe that was the point of the walkout.

Wow. I missed that KDurant news. Channeling my inner TT, they should call it Degree DeoDurant :)

BigDaddyG wrote: The issue has never been what Blake did in the past. ..... But many of these departments need to be defunded and rebuilt.

Women control about $20 trillion in annual consumer spending, and that figure could climb as high as $28 trillion in the next five years. Their $13 trillion in total yearly earnings could reach $18 trillion in the same period. In aggregate, women represent a growth market bigger than China and India combined—more than twice as big, in fact. Given those numbers, it would be foolish to ignore or underestimate the female consumer. Women make the decision in the purchases of 94% of home furnishings…92% of vacations…91% of homes… 60% of automobiles…51% of consumer electronics. The purchasing power of women in the U.S. ranges from $5 trillion to $15 trillion annually. Approximately 40% of U.S. working women now out-earn their husbands. 74.9% of women identified themselves as the primary shoppers for their households. Women make 90% of household healthcare decisions.

Women Make Up:
> 47.2% of major league soccer fans
> 46.5% of MLB fans
> 43.2% NFL fans
> 40.8% of NHL fans
> 37% of NBA fans

Politics follows the money. If you want what amounts to reform in public policy, you'll need financial leverage. You will also need to reach an audience both inside and OUTSIDE the NBA fandom.

By choosing to align with Jacob Blake, the NBA players and NBPA chose to alienate women in general. And to alienate the financial power associated with them. They could have picked anyone. Its not like shootings ( sadly) were going to suddenly stop anytime soon if we consider across the entire US. The players could have aligned with a different case with better optics to reach a specific goal. The only consolation that the NBPA might have is the WNBA managed to do something even more idiotic. ( A league full of woman screaming female empowerment for 20 plus years decides to put the name of a ****wit known for domestic violence and sexual assault on T shirts and cancel games no one is watching anyway)

Wide scale defunding of the police across the US is not going to happen. If you want to believe so, that's on you. But if you have an idea how that could actually work in reality, I'm all ears.

I'll pose the same thing I posed to smackeddog, what are your specific goals over these issues and what would you do specifically to achieve them?