mreinman wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

mreinman wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

mreinman wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

mreinman wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

mreinman wrote:Pop would also make a great GM.

Curious if a GREAT coach ever failed as a GM.

how many great coaches have ever gone that route? definition of great would have to include winning titles?

Very few but the ones that did seemed to succeed (off the top of my head).

Riley, West ...???

I do think that great coaches like Jackson and Popovich are almost GM's since they are involved in all personnel decisions.

The only question is ... how will he do being the final say in all decisions. My money is on him since he is a proven winner in life.

west didnt win any titles so i dont put him into the great coaches cat. riley i can agree on. i really cant think of many that fit this one way or the other from coach --> gm. don nelson maybe, though does he count as a massive success in the gm role? he has had mixed results.

I would not include Nelson.

I think that great coaches remain coaches until they retire. Phil and Riley are Hybrids.

Based on Phils leadership skills and past history, don't you have much more faith in his success as a GM than you would most others? I do.

right now no. he did a lot of that operating out of a different role (player/coach). he is making a transition to this new job and im not so sure some of what made him the coach he was will make that much diff as a gm.

i can wait to see if it works. i have low expectations.

Fair enough. I think that the majority have far more confidence in him based on his accomplishments.

i have learned to expect little from the knicks (and my other sports teams i follow, they all stink). if it goes well, fine, if it doesnt, i wont be shocked.

I guess being a Giants and Yankee fan, I don't feel that way :-)

I do not drink koolaid but I try to be open minded and logical. I never let it get to me or control me emotionally.

i try to stay out of these imagined holy wars here.

maybe you are old enough to remember the 80s to pre strike yankees... that was a tough time. strike sapped my mlb fandom a lot. glad to see em win, just won ever be the same for me.

sidsanders wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

tkf wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

dk7th wrote:
i am not happy about stoudemire but he knew he was dead man walking-- and in fact i feel for the guy, since he came here as a free agent, had greater success than melo before coming here, and then was summarily shoved aside by the arrival of melo, who was dolan's signature move. his attitude must have been that, knowing he would be marginalized if not outright unwanted, that he was not going to be the good soldier and take a financial hit for a team that pretty much doesn't want him around. isn't that what you and 99% of the fan base thinking? this is the price of doing business as a franchise in disarray and chaos.

you might as well have asked all the dead men walking players during walsh's first two years to have done the same, including stephon dinglebury.

well did you? and did you begrudge them getting paid in full?

hypocrites will have a hard time contending with what i just laid out in plain english and logically. you're more than welcome to give it a try.

Again - you make it pretty difficult to take anything you post seriously.

Fact - Amare was damaged goods even before he signed here as a Free Agent. Amare was breaking down even before Melo was acquired.

Fact - Amare was brought in as a Free Agent at a great cost to the Knicks who traded multiple first round picks and gave away players in order to sign Amare

Fact - Amare would have been "shoved aside" had the Knicks original plan played out.......to sign Amare in order to lure LBJ.

Fact - I've never begrudged anyone getting paid in full.....ever.

Fact - you seem to have a problem with athletes getting paid as evidenced by your constant posting on the topic even calculating how much Melo makes per minute.

Fact - the "Dead Men Walking" as you indicate in your post have nothing to do with anything being discussed (Amare restructuring & Melo taking less)......you are only bringing those variable into your post as a misdirecting statement because you really have nothing valid to offer in this conversation except for your subjective (and seemingly tainted) opinion.

Fact - by making the statement "hypocrites will have a hard time contending ......" you are name calling using a passive aggressive/indirect technique - you do this often and it is why so few people on this board can stand your posts.

It would be nice if Melo took much less for the team. But it is no different than any other player also taking much less for the team - so let's not make it out to be that one guy is an ogre and everyone else is a saint.

hmmm... let's see....

your first assertion was fact, but i prefer that some facts be put in context, like for instance that the owner had placed a mandate that his team bring in two big names, the priority being lebron james.

with this priority in mind your second assertion is false, laughably so.

as is your third assertion.

your fourth assertion is not a fact it is an accusation masked as an opinion. that said, i begrudge people getting paid in full when they only do half the job required of them when the goal is winning titles.

and yes i do have a problem with athletes getting paid so much that they hurt their own chances at winning. melo is dumb that way, very dumb.

my dead man walking is the heart of the matter vis a vis complaining about stoudemire taking less for the sake of the knicks. that you want to dismiss it makes me question your reading comprehension.

the last fact regarding hypocrisy stands-- as evidenced by your weak sauce response to my post. nothing passive about it.

melo was in a position to do what was best for the knicks, a golden opportunity to redeem himslef and buy some goodwill capital from the fanbase.

he blew it.

So you think Melo should take a $10 million a yr pay cut to help the team bring in another star or 2.

What planet are you from DK, no other star is doing this, and please dont say LBJ, because if Kobe and KD were on board to join melo, I'm certain he would would have sacrifice. But thats not the case, and If you want me to, I can pull a number of Interviews where Melo has said it can't be all about him taking all the shots, and the next day when woods ws tol that, he basically ignore that and continued to run him into the ground.

You and TKF are in a minority here with this hating business, and thinking melo is damn near a forth option, you really have to open your mind up

the hate is funny. Its not Melo, its Bosh, Chandler Parsons, etc etc.. its the game. NBA has always been this way. The CBA is literally set up for teams to overpay to keep their own talent.

Melo did exactly what Phil asked him to. Thats from Phil's mouth. Let the man go built his team.

Phil doesn't know what he's doing, obviously. His stupidity in building teams around one-way players continues...
It's a shame, really.

All those rings will turn out to be a mirage, just you wait and see.

We are definitely in for another 5 years of fool's gold.

yea, how many teams have Phil built? I know he has coached some championship teams, and he has played on some.. but how many has he built?

for that matter Isiah has rings.. .how well did he do building the knicks a contender? I guess he knew what he was doing right? I am sure you were a huge isiah supporter right down to the end.. because he had rings, and obviously that means you can build champions... right? I mean those Isiah years were just great, hell I even remember the championship parade... I am sure there was one.. because to believe otherwise would just mean I am a Hater.. right?

Wow, this guy just compared Phil to Isiah! I don't see an epic failure like bankrupting the CBA on Phil's resume before coming here, do you? After Isiah's playing days ended, him being successful at any job he was employed at also came to end. After Phil's playing days ended, he has been the most successful coach to ever sit on the bench. Whether he was the best or not is another argument, but he was the most successful. I would think he deserves more than 3 months with a capped out team, no picks and disaster of a roster to mold a team before being mentioned in the same sentence as Isiah or his tenure being a failure.

I don't like that he gave Melo as much money as he did but I plan giving him some time on the job before the doom and gloom starts

WOW no I didn't... where is the comparison... I said if we are going to assume having rings makes you a good GM, then by all acoounts Isiah should have been Great as well... so where is the comparison?

After Phil's playing days ended, he has been the most successful coach to ever sit on the bench.

And please show me where that is in question? by anyone on this site...

now, I ask you.. where does being a Great coach mean you will be a Great GM? and where does having rings translate into being a great GM?

Riley

And west to an extent

Bird has gotten close

tkfs point is pretty basic to me and it sure seems like folks are piling on cuz they dont like his rep. tend to agree with his point: jackson has a lot to prove and all that winning wont make sure he does the same in a role he has never had before.

hes got 5 years to show something, barring dolan doesnt strike.

It's naive to say he hasn't been in that role to an extent just because he hasn't had the title. Phil has had an influence in all decision-making for his teams. But if people are looking for him to prove it where that is his official title and he is not on the bench, and nothing else matters, thats fine.

was he negotiating contracts, conducting trades, was he running the scouting organization/draft, was he hiring other FO personel? having input is one thing, running that show and the other items that go with the FO role are different than being the coach.

maybe he has had more input than what it seems to me, however dont most folks think jerry west was a decent gm he worked for? maybe jerry and mitch have taken some knocks for sure, however there seemed to be some defined roles in chi and la during jacksons time there.

as i noted, hes got time.

EXCELLENT point....having an input is not the same, as scouts also have input. we don't know the extend of the input phil has had, but it certainly is different than actually making the call on those decisions.

As I said, I am sure guys like fisher had a lot of influence on the court. we can't assume that will make him a good coach..

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

dk7th wrote:
i am not happy about stoudemire but he knew he was dead man walking-- and in fact i feel for the guy, since he came here as a free agent, had greater success than melo before coming here, and then was summarily shoved aside by the arrival of melo, who was dolan's signature move. his attitude must have been that, knowing he would be marginalized if not outright unwanted, that he was not going to be the good soldier and take a financial hit for a team that pretty much doesn't want him around. isn't that what you and 99% of the fan base thinking? this is the price of doing business as a franchise in disarray and chaos.

you might as well have asked all the dead men walking players during walsh's first two years to have done the same, including stephon dinglebury.

well did you? and did you begrudge them getting paid in full?

hypocrites will have a hard time contending with what i just laid out in plain english and logically. you're more than welcome to give it a try.

Again - you make it pretty difficult to take anything you post seriously.

Fact - Amare was damaged goods even before he signed here as a Free Agent. Amare was breaking down even before Melo was acquired.

Fact - Amare was brought in as a Free Agent at a great cost to the Knicks who traded multiple first round picks and gave away players in order to sign Amare

Fact - Amare would have been "shoved aside" had the Knicks original plan played out.......to sign Amare in order to lure LBJ.

Fact - I've never begrudged anyone getting paid in full.....ever.

Fact - you seem to have a problem with athletes getting paid as evidenced by your constant posting on the topic even calculating how much Melo makes per minute.

Fact - the "Dead Men Walking" as you indicate in your post have nothing to do with anything being discussed (Amare restructuring & Melo taking less)......you are only bringing those variable into your post as a misdirecting statement because you really have nothing valid to offer in this conversation except for your subjective (and seemingly tainted) opinion.

Fact - by making the statement "hypocrites will have a hard time contending ......" you are name calling using a passive aggressive/indirect technique - you do this often and it is why so few people on this board can stand your posts.

It would be nice if Melo took much less for the team. But it is no different than any other player also taking much less for the team - so let's not make it out to be that one guy is an ogre and everyone else is a saint.

hmmm... let's see....

your first assertion was fact, but i prefer that some facts be put in context, like for instance that the owner had placed a mandate that his team bring in two big names, the priority being lebron james.

with this priority in mind your second assertion is false, laughably so.

as is your third assertion.

your fourth assertion is not a fact it is an accusation masked as an opinion. that said, i begrudge people getting paid in full when they only do half the job required of them when the goal is winning titles.

and yes i do have a problem with athletes getting paid so much that they hurt their own chances at winning. melo is dumb that way, very dumb.

my dead man walking is the heart of the matter vis a vis complaining about stoudemire taking less for the sake of the knicks. that you want to dismiss it makes me question your reading comprehension.

the last fact regarding hypocrisy stands-- as evidenced by your weak sauce response to my post. nothing passive about it.

melo was in a position to do what was best for the knicks, a golden opportunity to redeem himslef and buy some goodwill capital from the fanbase.

he blew it.

So you think Melo should take a $10 million a yr pay cut to help the team bring in another star or 2.

What planet are you from DK, no other star is doing this, and please dont say LBJ, because if Kobe and KD were on board to join melo, I'm certain he would would have sacrifice. But thats not the case, and If you want me to, I can pull a number of Interviews where Melo has said it can't be all about him taking all the shots, and the next day when woods ws tol that, he basically ignore that and continued to run him into the ground.

You and TKF are in a minority here with this hating business, and thinking melo is damn near a forth option, you really have to open your mind up

the hate is funny. Its not Melo, its Bosh, Chandler Parsons, etc etc.. its the game. NBA has always been this way. The CBA is literally set up for teams to overpay to keep their own talent.

Melo did exactly what Phil asked him to. Thats from Phil's mouth. Let the man go built his team.

Phil doesn't know what he's doing, obviously. His stupidity in building teams around one-way players continues...
It's a shame, really.

All those rings will turn out to be a mirage, just you wait and see.

We are definitely in for another 5 years of fool's gold.

yea, how many teams have Phil built? I know he has coached some championship teams, and he has played on some.. but how many has he built?

for that matter Isiah has rings.. .how well did he do building the knicks a contender? I guess he knew what he was doing right? I am sure you were a huge isiah supporter right down to the end.. because he had rings, and obviously that means you can build champions... right? I mean those Isiah years were just great, hell I even remember the championship parade... I am sure there was one.. because to believe otherwise would just mean I am a Hater.. right?

How many has Krause built without Phil? How many has West built without Phil? How many has Kupchak built without Phil?

All that proves is that phil was a great coach and coached the teams that were already built.. I ask you again.. HOW MANY TEAMS HAS PHIL BUILT..

Please stick to the question..

Lakers were 34-48 04-05 the year before they re hired Phil Jackson. That's not an already built team. Do you feel that Phil Jacskon had a lot of say in personnel decisions for the Lakers as the built up to the championship team in 2009-2010?

A lot of say? what does that mean? for that matter we can assume every coach has a lot of say, right? so every coach would make a great GM, right? I don't get your point... Phil has never been a GM this is not a given..

It is like saying jason Kidd had a lot of say of what went on when he was on the floor playing.. Do you think jason kidd is a great coach? even good?

Of course its not a given, Phil can screw up because at the end of the day he is human. But lets not act like the dude hasn't been apart of basketball for around 30 yrs(not counting his playing days) working with Krause, West, Kupchek putting together 11 championships along the way. If anyone has the potential to be a great president it would be Phil. You act as if its some guy that we pulled off of the street. I don't believe any of this is new to him at all.

He installed his system,
Hired a coach that can implement his system,
got rid of locker problems and got back a high IQ pg and 3 young assets for a pipeline.
Didn't sell low on Shump.
didn't give up assets to dump Amare or Bargs contract for quick fixes.
Wants to avoid paying the luxary tax
Eliminated the media policy and often communicates to the public on the moves and decisions made.

If all you have to complain about is that he overpaid for Melo then you don't really have much. Phil establishing an identity and eliminating the media policy is more then anyone has done for the Knicks in the last 12yrs. Not bad for a rookie, but then again he isn't no ordinary rookie.