Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:We've continued to mortage every player of value and lottery picks for STARPHUCHS going back to the mcdyess trade

So that is continuity!
I kid you but the term is vague.

lol true smh

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Yeah, but that's a pretty bad confusion of correlation and causation. As many experts have already argued, that could be the "Carmelo effect" or
a) the age effect (most of those players entered their primes while with Melo);
b) the "altitude effect";
c) the "George Karl effect";
d) probably many other factors

Or it could be some combination of those

I know. I have read the arguments

Just thought it was interesting.

And its funny but I expected you to be first to comment on it.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Yeah, but that's a pretty bad confusion of correlation and causation. As many experts have already argued, that could be the "Carmelo effect" or
a) the age effect (most of those players entered their primes while with Melo);
b) the "altitude effect";
c) the "George Karl effect";
d) probably many other factors

Or it could be some combination of those.

Also, the +3.8% drops to around +1% (which still matters but less so) if you adjust for actual # of shots taken. There's no logical reason to give equal weighting to each player when they play different minutes and take different #s of shots.
That article was one of Nate Silver's weakest pieces of work ever. He's done a lot of good work but that article was embarrassing.
If he had weighed all the shots equally and acknowledged all the confounding factors, the work would have been more respectable (but probably would not have been published)

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Yeah, but that's a pretty bad confusion of correlation and causation. As many experts have already argued, that could be the "Carmelo effect" or
a) the age effect (most of those players entered their primes while with Melo);
b) the "altitude effect";
c) the "George Karl effect";
d) probably many other factors

Or it could be some combination of those.

Also, the +3.8% drops to around +1% (which still matters but less so) if you adjust for actual # of shots taken. There's no logical reason to give equal weighting to each player when they play different minutes and take different #s of shots.
That article was one of Nate Silver's weakest pieces of work ever. He's done a lot of good work but that article was embarrassing.
If he had weighed all the shots equally and acknowledged all the confounding factors, the work would have been more respectable (but probably would not have been published)

yea.. and Melo is ONLY a high usage player because he's the best on the team and thats what the coaches want. I love how its not enough to show stats. There is now a stat for the quality of stats.

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Yeah, but that's a pretty bad confusion of correlation and causation. As many experts have already argued, that could be the "Carmelo effect" or
a) the age effect (most of those players entered their primes while with Melo);
b) the "altitude effect";
c) the "George Karl effect";
d) probably many other factors

Or it could be some combination of those.

Also, the +3.8% drops to around +1% (which still matters but less so) if you adjust for actual # of shots taken. There's no logical reason to give equal weighting to each player when they play different minutes and take different #s of shots.
That article was one of Nate Silver's weakest pieces of work ever. He's done a lot of good work but that article was embarrassing.
If he had weighed all the shots equally and acknowledged all the confounding factors, the work would have been more respectable (but probably would not have been published)

yea.. and Melo is ONLY a high usage player because he's the best on the team and thats what the coaches want. I love how its not enough to show stats. There is now a stat for the quality of stats.

I don't disagree with the stats. The stats are not wrong. I'll assume Nate Silver didn't enter the numbers incorrectly! The interpretation of the stats is (and *always is*) up for debate. Identifying confounding factors is not the same as saying the stats are incorrect.
If you don't understand that, you have a very limited understanding of statistics.

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Yeah, but that's a pretty bad confusion of correlation and causation. As many experts have already argued, that could be the "Carmelo effect" or
a) the age effect (most of those players entered their primes while with Melo);
b) the "altitude effect";
c) the "George Karl effect";
d) probably many other factors

Or it could be some combination of those.

Also, the +3.8% drops to around +1% (which still matters but less so) if you adjust for actual # of shots taken. There's no logical reason to give equal weighting to each player when they play different minutes and take different #s of shots.
That article was one of Nate Silver's weakest pieces of work ever. He's done a lot of good work but that article was embarrassing.
If he had weighed all the shots equally and acknowledged all the confounding factors, the work would have been more respectable (but probably would not have been published)

yea.. and Melo is ONLY a high usage player because he's the best on the team and thats what the coaches want. I love how its not enough to show stats. There is now a stat for the quality of stats.

I don't disagree with the stats. The stats are not wrong. I'll assume Nate Silver didn't enter the numbers incorrectly! The interpretation of the stats is (and *always is*) up for debate. Identifying confounding factors is not the same as saying the stats are incorrect.
If you don't understand that, you have a very limited understanding of statistics.

true or false: players shoot better playing with Melo than without

True (at the time of Silver's writing at least). That was *never* in dispute. The fact that you think it is reveals how clueless you are here. There are an infinite number of correlations that have nothing to do with causation. Several plausible confounding factors have already been discussed.
True or false: there are more ice cream sales on days when someone is murdered? (It's true but only because heat leads to both ice cream sales and frustration/violence). Heat is called a confounding factor here, just like altitude, age, etc. are in the Melo example.

I said "There is now a stat for the quality of stats."
You seemed to think I implied and answered as if I said that the stats where wrong. I never did. Maybe read the actual words before you get all snitty?

Then I ask YOU for a true or false. First you ASSUME my take is true, then you agree with that truth statement, then you go into another bitchy snit ASSUMING that I took those stats as a statement I never made, and continue to call me clueless on based on my opinions which are based on your assumptions.

Its cute how you think your smarter than everyone. Btw... your right. I avoided stats in school. Discussions with wankers like the above are the reason way. Instead I took real math, Calc and diffeQs.

Now that your snittyness (Nalod, is it spelled with an I or Y?) has been addressed you actually made EXACTLY the point I wanted to.

There are an infinite number of correlations that have nothing to do with causation.

An infinite # of factors. All stats have em, probably none more than the advanced metrics you wank too, but we can save that for another day right?

Now that we are past all that fluff how about you share your opinion? Your good at pointing out my cluelessness based on my views which are really your opinions of my views that dont exist, but hey lets not let that slow us. How about you make a statement? Share YOUR thoughts since your so smart, rather than just regurtitate other's folks musings... shoot

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:dirk had been a first team all-nba player 4 times before 2010-2011
dirk had been a second team all-nba player 4 times before 2010-2011

if melo is looking at dirk's monetary sacrifice and comparing himself to dirk in terms of recognized greatness, then asking for anything more than 13-14 million a year with the knicks is the height of conceit and delusion. melo needs to sack up and do what's best for the team and not what he believes is best for himself. he tried it once and it hasn't turned out too well.

only greed and ego will make him want more.

If melo 'sacrifices' like dirk he has to get 21 mil to net the same as dirk because if ny/NYC income tax.

dirk is head and shoulders better than melo-- that's why i listed the all-nba awards, of which there is a predominance of 1st and 2nd team elections. the mvp means nothing so i did not include it. dirk was also homegrown, was willing to stay with the team that drafted him.

2008-09	Dallas Mavericks	NBA	$18,077,904
2009-10	Dallas Mavericks	NBA	$19,795,714
2010-11	Dallas Mavericks	NBA	$17,278,618
2011-12	Dallas Mavericks	NBA	$19,092,873
2012-13	Dallas Mavericks	NBA	$20,907,128
2013-14	Dallas Mavericks	NBA	$22,721,381

hence, melo should have stayed with denver instead of creating a worse situation for himself through greed and ego. if he wants to make amends and is serious about remaining a knick he should undo the damage he did and stay in new york for 12-14 million.

2010-11	New York Knicks	NBA	$17,149,243
2011-12	New York Knicks	NBA	$18,518,574
2012-13	New York Knicks	NBA	$19,450,000
2013-14	New York Knicks	NBA	$22,407,474

melo is merely two-thirds the player that nowitzki is. a few people may want to argue this point by denigrating nowitzki somehow. this is the usual tactic used to somehow put lipstick on a pig.

two-thirds of dirk's title year salary is 11-12 million. this is the range that is fair for melo, although 12-14 million is hold-your-nose doable. you start asking for more than that and it's really a non-starter for the knicks.

so simple.

Dirk is no longer the player he once was, he isn't even the best player on his team...Dirk is 5 years older than Melo but has had a better career than Melo thus far...He has also played with better players...You stated that Dirk "sacrificed", when and where??...

Why do you think Melo need to make amends to you???..Why would Melo take 12-14 mil from the Knicks, when Chicago is ready to offer him 19 mil per???

dirk had tyson chandler, so did carmelo, you act as if dirk was playing with a all world cast.. Dirk is/ was a better player than carmelo by a good margin, his ability to hit clutch shots, his leadership, and overall game, allowed him to have more success... the end...

Tyson Chandler of today is not the same Tyson Chandler 4 years ago...Jason Terry was much better than JR..JKidd 4 years ago versus Felton...JJ Barea versus Pablo??..Marion of 4 years ago versus today's Amare...Caron Butler versus who???..Couple of other guys I'm missing...

chandler was DPOY in NY, am I correct?

JR smith was 6th man, am i correct?

dallas had neither with dirk..

Jason Terry was 6th man of the year...DHow should have won it the year Tyson did...Tyson as DYOP is hilarious to me, but it was Tyson defense that won them the Chip...It's the reason we overpaid for Tyson...Bron also had a better defensive year than Chandler that year...

so now you want to knock chandler to fit your argument..

the difference was dirk.. it is simple.. dirk is a much better player than carmelo... that is what matters...

Don't take my word for it, Chandler got destroyed by Hibbert last year in the playoffs..Yes, Hibbert who netted 0 pts and 2 rebs in 2 games against the Hawks..Chandler isn't the same player...So tell me about JKIdd versus Glock Felton, Caron Bultler, Deshawn Stevenson, Barea versus Pablo, Marion versus 20 mins per game, no D Amare...Jason Terry and suspended for weed, I refuse to shoot, JR...

The main thing is how the best players perform....Dirk Rose up in the finals, Melo shrunk in the second round.

Players follow their leaders/best players.

Dirk was shooting 48% overall...46% from three and a ridiculous 95% at the line.

Now if Melo had done any of this during any playoff run, the Knicks would be better regardless of talent on the floor.

But nope....37%, 41%, 40% and garbage from three.

bingo!! THIS IS typical of some of these posters, they will ignore that carmelo was one of the biggest culprits during most of his playoff runs.. they will point to other players not playing well but will ignore that carmelo himself was not good at all... until they address that I will continue to point that out, and I am glad you did as well..

no its only typical of you. Dirk has been all over the place in the playoffs. He's played well and won. He's played poorly and won. He's played well and lost and played poorly and lost.

Dirk has been eliminated in the first round 6 times. 2 of those his team was a top seed. Dirk also won an MVP in 06-07, while his team won 67 games. Why dont you google those playoffs and tell me what happened? Dirk followed his MVP season up by shooting 38% in a first round 4-2 spanking at the hands of the Warriors and Baron Davis.

It happens. Dirk's teams have had a few of the NBA's worst playoff upsets.

A real basketball chat would involve how Melo/Dirk have been outstanding scorers on teams without a clearly defined #2 or #3 options, and how that has clearly hurt their teams come post season. But we have the realGM exiles who's only agenda is Melo hate, so this is what you get.

I could only imagine that haters reaction if the Knicks won 67 games and flamed out in round one while Melo shoots the 38% Dirk shot. But we are establishing Melo's loserness and every other's players greatness over him, so lets gloss over Dirk's many and memorable failures, lets gloss over his own fans called him "Irk" with no D after those failures, and lets just focus on something he did that Melo didnt and pretend there was no process and that it only happened because Melo sucks and everyone else doesnt. Sounds about right...

its mind boggling and also breathtakingly ridiculous that you keep bringing up dirk to try to validate carmelo.... Dirk has 2 finals appearances and a ring.. His team is the only team to eliminate this current heat team since lebron.. take note of that... You keep forgetting that dirk is also a better player than carmelo...over a 15 year career I am sure any great player will have a number of flame outs, or first round failures.. but carmelo has had the majority of his career go this way... you do understand he has the worst playoff record among active players.. no where is dirk on that list or close to it..

here is a list of players over the past 20 years..

1. Carmelo Anthony, 16-36, .308

2. Mookie Blaylock, 18-36, .333

3. Eduardo Najera, 20-39, .339

4. Chris Dudley, 20-34, .370

5. Brad Miller, 19-31, .380

6. Anthony Peeler, 22-35, .386

7. Marcus Camby, 30-46, .395

8. Stacey Augmon, 31-46, .403

9. Shane Battier, 22-32, .407

10. Tyron Corbin, 28-40, .412

Take note, none of the players on here are considered "franchise" players, or "top 10" players.. except for you guys anointing carmelo as such.. LOL.. go figure..

It happens. Dirk's teams have had a few of the NBA's worst playoff upsets.

ok, and also have been on the end of one of the biggest series wins in the NBA playoffs shocking the miami heat with leberon, wade, and bosh?

what is your POINT fishmike????????

lets gloss over his own fans called him "Irk" with no D after those failures, and lets just focus on something he did that Melo didnt and pretend there was no process and that it only happened because Melo sucks and everyone else doesnt. Sounds about right...

NO lets not gloss over it.. I called him out for not defending and playing closer to the basket, I even created a thread on realgm(since you like to refer to that site) about dirk needed to get closer to the hoop to take his team to the next level.. but guess what... fans are not saying that anymore.. and guess why?

Dirk has won!!!! the end... and on top of that, lets be clear, dirk doesn't have the rep as a coach killer and malcontent like carmeloser has....

You are comparing almost apples and oranges here... it is ridiculous to compare this broken down u-haul van in carmelo to a well run diesel truck in Dirk.. it is silly, absolutely ridiculous that you keep bringing in such a superior player to try and prove a point that honestly you have been able to do over the past few months..

I could only imagine that haters reaction if the Knicks won 67 games and flamed out in round one while Melo shoots the 38% Dirk shot.

or maybe we would remember the great finals run he had vs the heat in which many fans felt the mavs were jobbed by the officiating in that series nicknamed "D- whistle"... in that playoff run he shot 47% , 27ppg with 12 boards....

and we would have fallen even more in love with him when he goes back to the finals in 2011 and beat the heat team, no one has yet beaten in the playoffs since.... and oh 28ppg 8 boards and 48% shooting.. again, I don't need to look any further than what dirk has done.. forget that jason terry was not playing well that series, and that tyson chandler was up and down..

but yea I know, I know... "carmelo has no heeeeeeelp"

that story is getting old and tired.. like carmelo

you need help buddy. Spinning your wheels a little too deep for me to play in your mud today. I stopped reading after the first line because I dont need to do anything to validate Melo or make excuses. Knicks were in the lottery for a decade. Melo brought 3 years of playoffs and the winning % got better every year. Last year was his first losing season of his career making it a one off. My expectation is that we pick up where the 54 win team left off, not last year's mess.

That will be Phil's task. That is why he's here.

Good job typing all that out though.... Maybe someone will read it.

Nobody is jumping off a bridge when Melo leaves. When Phil resigns Melo, well... Ill give YOU directions. DK will already be there waiting with a fruity ****tail for you

how much would you like to see phil jackson pay carmelo anthiny?

just enough to make you jump off the bridge with tkf when he signs...