mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

firefly wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

Ive been on this forum for a while and this Forum is starting to change. For me it's not for the best. Seems every thread wound up being a I hate Melo thread. It's getting worst every day. I started looking at other forums and view what they post. I don't post there. I have tickets for 2 more games this season and I plan to enjoy myself. I don't mind a good debate about the Knicks but when sickos post crazy things over and over about one player. And go to other threads and do the same thing and no one is doing anything about it I start to question the motives of the forum. Maybe I don't belong here because the hate goes beyond the game of basketball. Over and over again and again. We now have a new poster well not new but all of a sudden here he is back again being a poster boy for you know who. This personal hate of Melo needs to be address. I think everyone knows what I'm talking about. I come here for enjoyment but lately every damn thread wounds up being about how much they hate Melo. Melo will be the face of the Knicks for a long long time. I notice that some of the fair minded posters are posting less. Maybe it's time to move on and let them others take over the forum. Maybe! only time will tell.

We've only got another 2 months of it to put up with- the Melo either gets traded or re-signs with us long term (at which point I think the melo haters will quit the boards)

I don't have a problem with people critiquing Melo, but I get a bit bored when it's the same point over and over and over again- it's like being stuck in a rut. At some point you have to accept you've made your case, and move on to another subject

i for one won't stick around if he is resigned to such a high salary that it leaves the knicks no chance to acquire players who will put him in his place. believe it or not melo will be a good player at the right price, which is around 12-13 million per year. but every dollar above 13 million makes him worse and worse. it's always a balance of price versus value. he didn't understand that and of course he had the perfect accomplice in dolan.

that's why phil jackson being here is so important, assuming he has complete autonomy. he is a smart and persuasive man and he has 13 reasons for people to back that up.

sorry if critiquing a player is boring but you see his game has not evolved in areas that are required to win, and his arrival created so much turmoil that the knicks could never get the right players in place to achieve anything substantial.

Didn't you say you were leaving over at realgm if the melo trade went through? My understanding was you stayed until they didn't allow you to be post there any longer.

yeah my love for the knicks outstrips my hatred for carmelo anthony. the good folks at realgm don't understand such nuances-- do you? as i said-- the reason i no longer posted there was because a global mod-- a gaulieiter with a username of "moocow"-- didn't take kindly to the suggestion that he remove carmelo anthony's nuts from his mouth. so it was personal not philosophical. besides that he was one of the most ignorant basketball posters i have ever encountered in a position of authority. everything he said was wrong. everything he predicted was wrong. you can look it up. he was quite stupid really. he occupied that dangerous territory of middling intellect and power, probably around 118-124 IQ i reckon.

my iq is a good deal higher.

anyhoo some people around here like the taste of melo's nuts. i am pretty sure you are not one of them so what is your problem with what i post?

IQ is like education... When you need to remind people of yours it's because it doesn't show.

You got kicked off because your a troll. You and your compadre both

well of course you are wrong again sunny jim-- but hey see if you prefer cozying up to your spiritual brethren moocow and godshamgod on realgm knicks they have nice big couches.

here's a thought experiment: if it is true that i am a troll then why have i not been banned from this forum? are you saying that martin and andrew do not know what they are doing? if they disagree with you-- and apparently they do-- does this mean they are liars or stupid?

seems like everyone you disagree with is a lowlife and a moron.

You dont seem to like it when people infer that you're stupid. Why is that?

It's funny that it drives you so wild. I would think that someone who says such patently dumb things would be used to it by now. Couching it in fancy vocabulary doesn't make you any smarter. Just makes you a moron with just enough sense to buy a dictionary.

To be clear, your opinion on things in general:

If somebody asks you to clarify your position, a position you hold with a thin minority of people, they're stealing from you by wanting you to further elucidate your opinion. It is in fact their job to fresh out your ideas and positions. How dare they request further info. You dont know them!!! Question. How many people on this board do you know personally? Aren't we all stealing from you?

James Dolan is a lowlife. Its on your SIG. Granted Jim Dolan is a shocking owner of a sports team but a lowlife? Do you know his private life? His charitable donations? His family and circle of friends? The way he maybe went out of his way to help an old ladyaccross the street last week? (Could've happened and you wouldnt know either way would you?) But you have ordained him a lowlife.

Steve Mills is a probably lowlife. See above. Really? Ok.

Carmelo Anthony is only worth $10m a year. Putting aside the fact that some would argue all athletes are obscenely Overpaid and there for none of them are worth millions of anything the fact remains that, as many have tried to point out to you, the market sets a players value and the marker for Carmelo Anthony is a Max contract. So rail against that if you will but to claim otherwise is, well, dumb.

I could go on about all the insipid, self-aggrandising things you say but I dont want to tax your considerable IQ. Your ludicrously inflated opinion of yourself only makes it funnier. There are scores of posters on this board alone who have proven over years and even decades that their basketball knowledge dwarfs yours but in your little universe they are as nothing to your monstrous self-evaluation. I bet that when Fishmike didnt respond to you you thought "hah, finally he realises he has met his match. I have decimated his argument and his self esteem and I am the worlds winner" when in fact he just got bored of interacting with such an obvious plonker.

Youre entitled to any opinion you wish to hold. Just dont expect anyone to give them any credence when expressed by such an obvious boor. Especially when your position is "I dont have to explain myself to you. Do you know who I am?!" Troll is a decent description for want of a better word. I bet everyone at work loves you.

Come on, at least admit that he and TKF were the only ones here right about the team this year, and maybe take notes when they talk instead.

A stopped clock is right twice a day as well...And they are not right, their gripe is against Melo, who has been an all NBA player all year...

We're still waiting for your first let alone second though!

It's pointless, I won't waist my time...Their arguments aren't objective...

sure it is... Knicks gave up too much to get carmelo. Carmelo has a losing playoff record, worse among active players.. that is a fact.

he is not an efficient player. He makes max money and doesn't produce max results. His playoff shooting percentage is 41%

Those are facts...

that has been the basis of my argument. He is not a winner, doesn't defend, doesn't pass.... scoring with volume shooting means very little to me as there are a number of players in the league who can score when given 22 shots per game..

that is a lot more objetcive than calling him a top 5 player with as many flaws as he has in his game..

your move..

You all these "inefficient" arguments about Melo, some of them true. Yet you call a player like Alan Iverson one of the greatest players of all time.

Iverson from a stats perspective is as inefficient as it gets. While I respect some of your Melo arguments, it falls apart when you rave about Iverson.

I am sure that DK and Bonn who believe that Melo is flawed would certainly think the same about Iverson and that is fine and I can respect that.

Reg Season: 42.5% FG, 51.8% TS (beyond bad)
Playoffs: 40% FG, 49% TS (beyond bad)

Win Shares look pretty awful too but I am not sure I am sold on win shares.

iverson shot way too much. his usage rate was astronomical. a lot of it i blame on the wake of jordan and the loosening of the rules for palming and traveling. iverson palmed and traveled all the time, giving him the illusion of invincibility. that crossover was sick because it was illegal.

but he averaged a good amount of assists and his assist rate was always close to his usage rate, meaning that what he did to hurt his teams with inefficient scoring he made up some with teamwork.

and he was a good rebounder. tough little son of a gun. i never cared for his game but he was a better teammate than melo.

not just a better teamate but a better player... carmelo gets credit as a great scorer, yet he never averaged 30ppg... iverson eclipsed that at least 4 times. led the league in scoring 4 times, led the league in steals 3 times..took a team with No "running mate" as people like to use that term around here, to the finals.... 3 time all NBA first team player.. he was simply a better player than carmelo..

not my favorite player, as I always didn't like his brand of play, but no one played as hard as that dude did, I can respect that..

30 points a game does not make an argument against inefficiency. To me, this is a big of "flip flopping".

Leading the league is scoring ... see previous comment

Leading the league in steals was a detriment to his team and team defense

3 time all NBA first team does not argue the numbers either.

"simple a better player than carmelo" maybe, but an empty statement

Wages Of Wins will break it down a bit for you (btw, they have gripes about Carmelo too, but so do I)

http://wagesofwins.com/2013/01/15/yeh-points-allen-iverson-what-was-the-question/

you are notorious for creating these arguments I never claimed to have made and then arguing against it..

30 points a game does not make an argument against inefficiency. To me, this is a big of "flip flopping".

Leading the league in steals was a detriment to his team and team defense

3 time all NBA first team does not argue the numbers either.

what numbers are we arguing here? Iverson has better numbers, but a poster said carmelo was an all NBA player, he used that as a defense.. I countered with iverson being and all nba first team player 3 times... I don't get your point here..

"simple a better player than carmelo" maybe, but an empty statement

empty like, "top 5 player", "Best pure scorer", "best player on the knicks"?

nothing empty about it, Iverson was a better player....

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:I don't feel like quoting all of the above but mreinman is probably referring to how Iverson chased steals which lead to great numbers but hurt the defense overrall because he was out of position.

Oh that makes sense then.

or maybe iverson was good at playing the passing lanes, which he had a great burst to the ball..

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Note that the win shares and points scored/given up per 100 possessions do paint a much better picture for Iverson that year. They don't make him look like an MVP but do make him look much better than wins produced does.

Yeah but we can't really pick and choose between the 2. I believe that you usually go with WP.

Carmelo's WS's since he came to NY have been very solid and career wise, 9 points higher than AI's.

They both have pretty dreadful WS's during the playoffs.

Bonn1997 wrote:Note that the win shares and points scored/given up per 100 possessions do paint a much better picture for Iverson that year. They don't make him look like an MVP but do make him look much better than wins produced does.

I don't think that anyone will argue iverson was an efficient player, but when comparing him to carmelo, iverson may be the lesser of two evils. both guys shoot a lot, both didn't shoot a good %, but iverson did more, was a more dynamic player and more explosive player. count in the fact that he also made plays for others.. was he flawed, yes, but still a more dynamic player...

as far as him and steals, to say he chased steals, that seems to be a bit subjective...

tkf wrote:
you are notorious for creating these arguments I never claimed to have made and then arguing against it..

30 points a game does not make an argument against inefficiency. To me, this is a big of "flip flopping".

This is not that hard bro.. Iverson although an inefficient player was better than carmelo....
got it? where did I say iverson was efficient?

Leading the league in steals was a detriment to his team and team defense

is that like saying carmelo leading the knicks in scoring was detrimental to the offense? OK if that is the road you want to go down... now next explain to me how was that so.. and please don't say iverson gambled on defense, is there really any proof of that?

3 time all NBA first team does not argue the numbers either.

what numbers are we arguing here? Iverson has better numbers, but a poster said carmelo was an all NBA player, he used that as a defense.. I countered with iverson being and all nba first team player 3 times... I don't get your point here..

"simple a better player than carmelo" maybe, but an empty statement

empty like, "top 5 player", "Best pure scorer", "best player on the knicks"?

nothing empty about it, Iverson was a better player....

I am notorious for creating these arguments? Ok ... You have not mentioned about how good/great a player that AI was? I never said that you said he was efficient, did I? You still see the issue here right?

You don't need to call me bro or get mad, just argue your points.

The steals being a detriment was from Clyde Frazier saying that he gambled too much and lost and that hurt his team defensively.

Leading the league in anything is great if its done efficiently. Jacking up 27 shots to lead the league in scoring at 31 per is horrible (Iverson). I would rather Melo not ever lead the league in scoring and shoot 47pct and average 5 assists.

I don't care how many times Iverson was All NBA, that does not change anything, people are obviously misinformed and bad GM's.

"simple a better player than carmelo" maybe, but an empty statement

empty like, "top 5 player", "Best pure scorer", "best player on the knicks"?

nothing empty about it, Iverson was a better player....

Again, a horribly empty argument/statement with lots of chest pumping. Neither of them were/top 5 players. Melo in my bood is 10-15 but he could be closer to top 5 if he made those adjustments.

Please read the Wages of Wins article about Iverson before responding. Funny but there is also an article in there that talks about how Iverson and Melo were a horrible pairing. And, when billups replaced him, they did much better.

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I'm anxious to see how people change their tune once Melo leaves or is traded. Always fun

I'd be surprised if Melos still mentioned after he leaves

you mean like Lin?

No where near like Lin

It would depend on how he and his new team are doing and how the knicks are doing without him. Either way, there will be numerous threads at any given time about him. He is polarizing.

I think there may be a couple "told ya so" threads going both ways. However, the thing with Lin is that we had a choice to keep him and let him go. If Melo leaves, it's his choice and there wasn't really much we could've done about it so I don't see much room for "we should've kept Melo" threads like we see with Lin.

"his choice" not really. i don't see melo having much leverage at this point. nobody is going to offer him max money given what they have witnessed in new york. so why should the knicks?

he also said he would be willing to take a discount but jackson is going to persuade him to take a lot less if anthony is genuinely vested in winning this time around. so why should jackson offer anything close to what melo thinks he should get even with a discount?

"melo you got your money the first time around. now it's time to sacrifice for the sake of winning and creating your legacy. we are offering 12-13 million."

What? Compared to Lin who would've had to stay here if we matched, Melo can choose to leave NY. It is his choice. The only way it wouldn't be is if no team other than the Knicks wanted to sign him but that's not going to be the case.

no team will pay him max money. that is my guess.
few teams will offer more than 17 million for him. that is my guess.
if he chooses to leave because he'd rather take the money to play elsewhere he laughs all the way to the bank but ruins forever his legacy here. that is also my guess but i am pretty sure the new yorkers will revile him.

not even someone as conceited as carmelo anthony will discount that. and neither will phil jackson.

wanna put your money where your mouth is? $100? $500? $1000? Bet me no team offers Melo a max contract. Oh please bet me bet me bet me...

where in the post did i use the word "bet" or intimate that it was anything more than a guess on my part? betting is for gamblers. i don't gamble i play poker-- different thing entirely.

if he wants to go to a losing situation where he makes max money that makes him a loser... r-right?

if he wants to go to chicago or a better team because he wants to have a better chance at winning there then he will perforce be taking less money... right?

and he will be branded a loser by most new yorkers and reviled for not only not being able to win anything of consequence, but if he leaves new york empty-handed he will be forever in the new york city hall of shame, and deservedly so... right?

the only scenario where he wins is by taking a huge paycut, staying here and learning how to play the right way from a guy who has the hardware to back up his words... right?

so i don't see a whole lot of leverage here for melo. every dollar the knicks shell out above 13 million is counterproductive.

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I'm anxious to see how people change their tune once Melo leaves or is traded. Always fun

I'd be surprised if Melos still mentioned after he leaves

you mean like Lin?

No where near like Lin

It would depend on how he and his new team are doing and how the knicks are doing without him. Either way, there will be numerous threads at any given time about him. He is polarizing.

I think there may be a couple "told ya so" threads going both ways. However, the thing with Lin is that we had a choice to keep him and let him go. If Melo leaves, it's his choice and there wasn't really much we could've done about it so I don't see much room for "we should've kept Melo" threads like we see with Lin.

"his choice" not really. i don't see melo having much leverage at this point. nobody is going to offer him max money given what they have witnessed in new york. so why should the knicks?

he also said he would be willing to take a discount but jackson is going to persuade him to take a lot less if anthony is genuinely vested in winning this time around. so why should jackson offer anything close to what melo thinks he should get even with a discount?

"melo you got your money the first time around. now it's time to sacrifice for the sake of winning and creating your legacy. we are offering 12-13 million."

What? Compared to Lin who would've had to stay here if we matched, Melo can choose to leave NY. It is his choice. The only way it wouldn't be is if no team other than the Knicks wanted to sign him but that's not going to be the case.

no team will pay him max money. that is my guess.
few teams will offer more than 17 million for him. that is my guess.
if he chooses to leave because he'd rather take the money to play elsewhere he laughs all the way to the bank but ruins forever his legacy here. that is also my guess but i am pretty sure the new yorkers will revile him.

not even someone as conceited as carmelo anthony will discount that. and neither will phil jackson.

wanna put your money where your mouth is? $100? $500? $1000? Bet me no team offers Melo a max contract. Oh please bet me bet me bet me...

where in the post did i use the word "bet" or intimate that it was anything more than a guess on my part? betting is for gamblers. i don't gamble i play poker-- different thing entirely.

if he wants to go to a losing situation where he makes max money that makes him a loser... r-right?

if he wants to go to chicago or a better team because he wants to have a better chance at winning there then he will perforce be taking less money... right?

and he will be branded a loser by most new yorkers and reviled for not only not being able to win anything of consequence, but if he leaves new york empty-handed he will be forever in the new york city hall of shame, and deservedly so... right?

the only scenario where he wins is by taking a huge paycut, staying here and learning how to play the right way from a guy who has the hardware to back up his words... right?

so i don't see a whole lot of leverage here for melo. every dollar the knicks shell out above 13 million is counterproductive.

Caves fans probably said the same of LeBron...He is staying and there won't be a huge pay cut either..

dk7th wrote:where in the post did i use the word "bet" or intimate that it was anything more than a guess on my part? betting is for gamblers. i don't gamble i play poker-- different thing entirely.

if he wants to go to a losing situation where he makes max money that makes him a loser... r-right?

if he wants to go to chicago or a better team because he wants to have a better chance at winning there then he will perforce be taking less money... right?

and he will be branded a loser by most new yorkers and reviled for not only not being able to win anything of consequence, but if he leaves new york empty-handed he will be forever in the new york city hall of shame, and deservedly so... right?

the only scenario where he wins is by taking a huge paycut, staying here and learning how to play the right way from a guy who has the hardware to back up his words... right?

so i don't see a whole lot of leverage here for melo. every dollar the knicks shell out above 13 million is counterproductive.

fishmike wrote:DK... now your just being a *****. You puff out your chest, you condescend, you remind us of our little IQs, you tout your great BB IQ over all and your ability to see truth in #s other cant, and you are so certain in your convictions that Melo isnt even close to a max player that no team will offer him max money.

But now we see... your just guessing all along. Your just guessing Melo isnt max player. Your just guessing about everything it seems, because in the end you know your wrong and your little game is running out of gas.

Personally I dont care if we keep Melo or if Phil sends him to another team in a S&T. We have a new GM and like Walsh I am 100% prepared to sit back and look at every move as part of a bigger plan and lets see where we go. That being said I know Melo will certainly be offered the max. Why? (brace yourself for logic). Because he's a max player.

I see after 1000s of posts on your personal anti-Melo crusade lacks a spine.

Ill give you 2-1. My $200 to your $100.

Im open.

you are on tilt. let me know when you are no longer on tilt.