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If You Cannot Watch The Knicks With A Fresh Outlook, Why Torture Yourself?
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Bonn1997
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10/14/2013  10:33 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/14/2013  10:37 AM
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
knickscity wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
knickscity wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
misterearl wrote:knickscity - nice summary. Does your game change when you are playing with guys who are not as accomplished?

Or do you play the same way every game, no matter who you are teamed with?

He can answer for himself. However, unless they're players who can't even hit open layups, I would hope he would try to get high % shots for them before taking contested off-balance shots for himself.
Notice how KD played with guys collectively shooting below 40% in the 2nd round of the playoffs but he still averaged seven assists a game?


Yup, and this was from a guy who isnt a natural playmaker.

...And averaged 4 turnovers, shot below 45% and got bumped in the 2nd round. Whats the point? I can find series where Melo put up great individual numbers and his team still got knocked out of the playoffs as well....

No, you can't find series where Melo averaged 7 assists a game. And actually an assist:to ratio of almost 2 to 1 (7:4) is excellent for a forward and 45% from the field would be one of the best playoff series of Melo's career.

Bonn..It's a silly comparison given that OKC used Durant as a point forward in a lot of cases after Westbrook went down...His career average prior to that was over 2.5 assist per game...Knicks play more of a half court style that results is a lot of ISO with Melo, which results in less assist..OKC is more of an uptempto offense...It's like Chris Duhon putting out 22 assist in MDA's offense..Without looking at the numbers, Durant is still taking 22/25 shots per game in that series...They lost to Memphis 4-1 I believe...But yeah, great numbers by Durant if that matters...


Point forward - that's just a fancy label for a well-rounded forward who can score and distribute - something we wish Melo could do. If you're going to have the ball in your hands on every play, either you're going to have "point" or play-making skills, or you're gonna hurt your team.


No...wrong...Every player cannot be the most perfect player or LeBron James...There is only one of him...U can still win if you surround Melo with the right pieces...Westbrook and Wade are top ten players, so Bron and Durant are just awesome and swell...They know how to make people around them better...Because frankly, the players around them are just better...If u add a top ten player to this current Knick roster, which Amare was supposed to be, do u doubt we would be able to compete with the Heat or OKC??...

We can compete with them now in the regular season, but I doubt we can in the playoffs.

LeBron certainly wasnt playing with a healthy top 10 player, and they did take an L when he was healthy.

But that was because another top 10 (Dirk) went bonkers on offense and did things he usually dont (rebound).

You dont need two top 10's to win...if you have one, he needs to play great though.


How did Dirk do in the playmaking department??

much better assist:to ratio than Melo.

Now I'm supposed to be concern about Melo's assist:to ratio as its compared to Dirk's??..Stop it...


Yeah, it's not like assists and turnovers matter.
Now I see why you like Melo and Bargs so much!
You can never look at assists or turnovers without looking at the other. Otherwise, you're confounding play-making skills with total usage.
Dirk has better play-making skills than Melo but a lower usage rate. So he has slightly lower assists and far lower turnovers.
AUTOADVERT
holfresh
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10/14/2013  10:41 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/14/2013  10:42 AM
I disagree that Dirk has better playmaking skills..Now I like Bargs??..Where did u find that one??
EwingsGlass
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10/14/2013  10:50 AM
Misterearl --

I am going to weigh in for a second. I think that although the current Knicks are a firm improvement over the prior decade of despicable play, they give themselves the look of a contender only in the sense of a fighter walking into a fight with a swinger's chance. You can call building a contender a process, but for the foreseeable future, we are only walking in with a swinger's chance. Title elimination material. And maybe that swinger's chance will connect -- we'll see something magical happen and the Knicks will take a 4th or 5th seed to the Eastern conference finals... but when I think about how I want my favorite team to operate, I'd like to walk into every season with a little more than a swinger's chance. I grew up with that 90's team that made me think every year was a distinct possibility. Now, my general outlook is that we would have to get real lucky. I wouldn't mortgage our future for that swinger's chance alone, but that is what this organization continually does -- trade draft picks for mediocre players. Trade low price talent for top price players. Its disheartening.

It weighs on the conscience - not in the sense that I am not a Knicks fan, but only that I hope the Knicks would starting acting like the more successful organizations. So, I am hopeful for this season, that things mesh and they win 54+ games again and do something special. But in my mind, its only a swinger's chance. Its not the kind of dominance that comes from running a top notch organization year in and year out. Its not from the organized plan of redevelopment. So, I apologize if I'm not the kind of excited that I used to have for this team. I'm anxiously waiting for a reason to believe otherwise.

You know I gonna spin wit it
Bonn1997
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10/14/2013  12:02 PM
holfresh wrote:I disagree that Dirk has better playmaking skills..Now I like Bargs??..Where did u find that one??

I apologize if you aren't really optimistic about Bargs. Sometimes my mind lumps all of the homers' thoughts together.
misterearl
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10/14/2013  2:31 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/14/2013  2:32 PM
EwingsGlass wrote:Misterearl --

I am going to weigh in for a second. I think that although the current Knicks are a firm improvement over the prior decade of despicable play, they give themselves the look of a contender only in the sense of a fighter walking into a fight with a swinger's chance. You can call building a contender a process, but for the foreseeable future, we are only walking in with a swinger's chance. Title elimination material. And maybe that swinger's chance will connect -- we'll see something magical happen and the Knicks will take a 4th or 5th seed to the Eastern conference finals... but when I think about how I want my favorite team to operate, I'd like to walk into every season with a little more than a swinger's chance. I grew up with that 90's team that made me think every year was a distinct possibility. Now, my general outlook is that we would have to get real lucky. I wouldn't mortgage our future for that swinger's chance alone, but that is what this organization continually does -- trade draft picks for mediocre players. Trade low price talent for top price players. Its disheartening.

It weighs on the conscience - not in the sense that I am not a Knicks fan, but only that I hope the Knicks would starting acting like the more successful organizations. So, I am hopeful for this season, that things mesh and they win 54+ games again and do something special. But in my mind, its only a swinger's chance. Its not the kind of dominance that comes from running a top notch organization year in and year out. Its not from the organized plan of redevelopment. So, I apologize if I'm not the kind of excited that I used to have for this team. I'm anxiously waiting for a reason to believe otherwise.

Ewingsglass - you have crafted a compelling narrative of what it means (and how it feels) to follow the Knicks over a long period of time. Well written and coherent to the point The Answer Man nodded positively a few times.

Given the state of corporate ownership, as opposed to an enlightened individual like a Bill Bradley, our beloved NYKnicks - with input from Steve Mills - are about to embark on another quest.

The Incremental steps of Mike Woodsons tenure suggest we are ready to take another step forward during the second season.

Lets run one.

once a knick always a knick
Bonn1997
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10/14/2013  2:34 PM
holfresh wrote:I disagree that Dirk has better playmaking skills.

Who do you think makes more mistakes (i.e., turnovers or just off target passes) when trying to set up others (Melo or Dirk)? Do you factor that in? I'd say Dirk sets up teammates just slightly less often than Melo does (due to overall low usage) but Melo turns the ball over about twice as often or simply makes an off-target pass that sets the player up poorly at least twice as often as as Dirk does.
tkf
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10/14/2013  2:47 PM
EwingsGlass wrote:Misterearl --

I am going to weigh in for a second. I think that although the current Knicks are a firm improvement over the prior decade of despicable play, they give themselves the look of a contender only in the sense of a fighter walking into a fight with a swinger's chance. You can call building a contender a process, but for the foreseeable future, we are only walking in with a swinger's chance. Title elimination material. And maybe that swinger's chance will connect -- we'll see something magical happen and the Knicks will take a 4th or 5th seed to the Eastern conference finals... but when I think about how I want my favorite team to operate, I'd like to walk into every season with a little more than a swinger's chance. I grew up with that 90's team that made me think every year was a distinct possibility. Now, my general outlook is that we would have to get real lucky. I wouldn't mortgage our future for that swinger's chance alone, but that is what this organization continually does -- trade draft picks for mediocre players. Trade low price talent for top price players. Its disheartening.

It weighs on the conscience - not in the sense that I am not a Knicks fan, but only that I hope the Knicks would starting acting like the more successful organizations. So, I am hopeful for this season, that things mesh and they win 54+ games again and do something special. But in my mind, its only a swinger's chance. Its not the kind of dominance that comes from running a top notch organization year in and year out. Its not from the organized plan of redevelopment. So, I apologize if I'm not the kind of excited that I used to have for this team. I'm anxiously waiting for a reason to believe otherwise.

VERY, VERY WELL SAID!!

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
yellowboy90
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10/14/2013  3:23 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:I disagree that Dirk has better playmaking skills.

Who do you think makes more mistakes (i.e., turnovers or just off target passes) when trying to set up others (Melo or Dirk)? Do you factor that in? I'd say Dirk sets up teammates just slightly less often than Melo does (due to overall low usage) but Melo turns the ball over about twice as often or simply makes an off-target pass that sets the player up poorly at least twice as often as as Dirk does.

Not to jump in but there was an article out about Melo's passing and he actually doesn't turn the ball over that much while passing.

jrodmc
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10/14/2013  3:39 PM
EwingsGlass wrote:I am going to weigh in for a second. I think that although the current Knicks are a firm improvement over the prior decade of despicable play, they give themselves the look of a contender only in the sense of a fighter walking into a fight with a swinger's chance. You can call building a contender a process, but for the foreseeable future, we are only walking in with a swinger's chance. Title elimination material. And maybe that swinger's chance will connect -- we'll see something magical happen and the Knicks will take a 4th or 5th seed to the Eastern conference finals... but when I think about how I want my favorite team to operate, I'd like to walk into every season with a little more than a swinger's chance. I grew up with that 90's team that made me think every year was a distinct possibility. Now, my general outlook is that we would have to get real lucky.

And that '90's team was based on that one gleaming Debusschere moment of winning the lottery, wasn't it? Or were the '90's era due to all those tremendous draft picks?


EwingsGlass wrote:I wouldn't mortgage our future for that swinger's chance alone, but that is what this organization continually does -- trade draft picks for mediocre players. Trade low price talent for top price players. Its disheartening.
It weighs on the conscience - not in the sense that I am not a Knicks fan, but only that I hope the Knicks would starting acting like the more successful organizations.

Welcome to life in the big city. We don't rebuild. We don't draft well, no actually we draft somewhere south of horribly, and we sign almost only big names to coach. The Greyhound bus for Indiana, Oklahoma City and San Tone is at the terminal, boarding now. I don't know who these top notch organizations are that you're referrring to, so I'm just guessing.

EwingsGlass wrote:So, I am hopeful for this season, that things mesh and they win 54+ games again and do something special. But in my mind, its only a swinger's chance. Its not the kind of dominance that comes from running a top notch organization year in and year out. Its not from the organized plan of redevelopment. So, I apologize if I'm not the kind of excited that I used to have for this team. I'm anxiously waiting for a reason to believe otherwise.

Parting thought:

Top Notch organizations:
Boston Celtics - Hi, Mr. Russell, Mr. Bird, how many times do somebodies like you come along? Not too often apparently.
Lakers - Jerry West, Magic Johnson, Kobe Bryant.
Bulls - MJ
Spurs - Tim Duncan

What other organizations have had more than a puncher's chance (swinger sounds a bit off topic) in any year?

It's the luck of the draft. We were lucky first, 30 years ago. It translated into some entertaining basketball for a over a decade. We came close in '99. Would have loved to have the chance at that one again with Ewing at full strength, meshing with Spree. Alas.

But you could be the Hawks. Or the Wizards. Or the Clips. Or the Nuggets. Or...

yellowboy90
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10/14/2013  3:51 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/14/2013  7:36 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:I disagree that Dirk has better playmaking skills.

Who do you think makes more mistakes (i.e., turnovers or just off target passes) when trying to set up others (Melo or Dirk)? Do you factor that in? I'd say Dirk sets up teammates just slightly less often than Melo does (due to overall low usage) but Melo turns the ball over about twice as often or simply makes an off-target pass that sets the player up poorly at least twice as often as as Dirk does.

Not to jump in but there was an article out about Melo's passing and he actually doesn't turn the ball over that much while passing.


Found it I think.

http://theknickswall.com/2013/04/06/carmelo-anthonys-astounding-ball-security/


Following a stretch of three games where Carmelo Anthony has lit up the Knicks’ opponents for a combined 131 points and a Knicks record (tied) three straight 40+ point performances, all anybody can talk about, in regards to him, is his scoring. While I’ve been loving the sky-high scoring numbers, (43.6 PPG, 64.1% FG) what I’ve been more excited about is the wins – 11 sweet ones in a row. Anthony did face very few double teams and often found himself facing off against the likes of Mike Miller, Rashard Lewis and Ersan Ilyasova, so the high totals are nice, but they aren’t enough to blow me away.

One thing that was brought to my attention was that combined in the first two games, Melo had only one single turnover. He did have five last night, a very bad number, but the aforementioned figure enlightened me. Carmelo doesn’t turn the ball over nearly as much as a player with his offensive duties would. He’s averaging 2.7 turnovers a game, nothing extraordinarily low. However, when compared to other qualified small forwards in the league (ESPN lists him as a small forward, no idea why), under an advanced turnover statistic, Turnover Ratio (TO), Anthony ranks just outside of the top-20, pedestrian at first glance. What you have to realize is that no player ahead of him is coming within 10% of his league-leading Usage Percentage (estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor), and only one player (Thaddeus Young) is coming within 5 minutes of Anthony’s 37.2 of game time a night.

Melo’s ball security as a primary ball handler and offensive juggernaut for the Knicks this season is actually historic, believe it or not. As of yesterday (before the evening games), Anthony’s USG%, per Basketball-Reference, is at a 35% mark and his TO% is at a 9.6% mark. Using this threshold, I searched for players with a matching criteria. USG% of 35% and over and TO% of 10% and under, with the inclusion of a 1,000 minutes played boundary, in order to knock away any small sample sizes. What came about all but solidified my understanding of Anthony’s ball security.

Only five players, since the dawn of the NBA, managed these numbers, with Anthony primed to be the sixth, should he continue his level of offensive output and ball security. Here are the names on that list:

George Gervin – 1982 season
Michael Jordan – 1987 & 2002 seasons
Dominique Wilkins – 1988 season
Tracy McGrady – 2003 season
Kobe Bryant – 2006 season

Correct me if I’m wrong, but that seems like some decent company. Now, one rebuttal can be, “but David, Melo doesn’t pass!” Well, when checking up on each player’s AST% (percentage of a player’s possessions ending in an assist) during those seasons, Carmelo ranks fifth among the seven seasons, behind Jordan’s two, McGrady, and Bryant. Sure he’s not the most pass-heavy, but he certainly isn’t the biggest ball-hog, either. (A side note, Melo’s eFG% ranks him third among this same group.)

Speaking of passing, Carmelo Anthony is really good at it. Definitely way above average for a player of his athletic build and scoring ability. I say this right at the people criticizing this portion of Melo’s game, because it’s a flawed and inaccurate criticism. Passing is not where the majority of Anthony’s turnovers come from, he may do it more sporadically than many of us would like, but he’s a gifted distributor. Nbawowy.com has in-depth turnover breakdowns, and when looking at Anthony’s, you’ll see that 12.2% of his giveaways are under the “bad pass” category. About a tenth of every turnover he commits is the fault of an off pass.

The majority of his turnovers? Offensive fouls make up 20.7% of them, and the whopping number one cause is a “steal,” at 45.1%. Not much info lies here, so I took to Synergy Sports to further break down where Anthony has turned the ball over this season. According to Synergy’s play sorting data, Anthony turns the ball over the most on unclassified plays and on post-up tries.

Looking through (each and every one of em’) the unclassified plays, the majority were off-ball offensive fouls. The few turnovers when Anthony had the ball in his hands often came when he attempted to pass the ball within a second of him catching it: rushed passes.

The latter makes a ton of sense, with Anthony often being doubled when working in the low-post, and if it comes down hard enough a double can be ridiculously tough to get the ball out of. Post-up plays account for 20% of Anthony’s offense, only behind isolation attempts. Here is where we’ll find the meat and potatoes of Melo’s turnovers. I dug through each instance of Carmelo turning it over from the low post, and here are the only important points needed to be focused on:

The leading cause was offensive fouls (30% of the turnovers), Melo hooking his arm to swing by an opponent or just bulldozing his way through them. This is where Anthony needs to get smarter.
25% of his turnovers came when Anthony was doubled and was either stripped of the ball or lost it himself. A key indicator of a turnover coming is when you see Melo keeping his head down trying to maintain control of the ball. That’s a no-no.
Bad passes made up merely 10% of Carmelo’s turnovers out of the post, all of which occurred when he was doubled.

The next step in Anthony’s progression as an efficient controller of the basketball is to overcome his over-aggressiveness and learn how to manage being double teamed. Everyone will travel, step out of bounds or lose the ball accidentally once in a blue moon, it’s basketball, it happens. But there lies two serious trends in Anthony’s forays into the paint in which he lowers his shoulder, or pulls away defenders with his off-ball arm. Both are illegal tactics, both rarely ever go unnoticed by referees, in Melo’s case. Anthony’s court vision seems to limit itself when he backs down, as he’s often unable to see a second defender coming who applies immediate pressure, enough so to cause a turnover. Where fellow superstars LeBron and James and Kobe Bryant excel is seeing the double coming and passing out to an open shooter quickly, before the second man can get there. Anthony must develop this skill to cut down on his turnovers.

This article is about Melo’s undeniably strong ball security, but it can always improve. Look at Kevin Durant and LeBron James. Both were superstars two years ago, yet they continually worked on their games, (see: LeBron’s post game and Durant’s distributing/rebounding) elevating them to new levels. Levels where they can compete for the MVP award, at the same time being right in the hunt for an NBA championship. Anthony’s far from a perfect player, and honing one of his most impressive skills can be just as important as developing a new one.

Anthony was not always a savvy player when it comes to protecting the ball, honing a TO% of above 10% in each of his first 8 seasons in the league, before dipping under that threshold in two of his previous three years. Credit is due to his maturation as a player, and his taking upon a much steadier approach to the offensive side of the basketball. Even now though he sometimes finds himself out of control, either rushing or panicking his way into a giveaway.

Nevertheless, he’s still wholesomely remarkable at keeping the ball away from the opposition, and it’s carried over to his teammates. The Knicks are first in the league in lowest TO%, which has been a terrific team effort, but can also be in part due to Anthony’s leadership in this aspect. Leadership, the one quality Knicks fans have been praying for out of Anthony since he’s arrived. Here we see the quality in action, the one that will lead Carmelo and the Knicks to new heights.

GodSaveTheKnicks
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10/14/2013  5:28 PM
jrodmc wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:I am going to weigh in for a second. I think that although the current Knicks are a firm improvement over the prior decade of despicable play, they give themselves the look of a contender only in the sense of a fighter walking into a fight with a swinger's chance. You can call building a contender a process, but for the foreseeable future, we are only walking in with a swinger's chance. Title elimination material. And maybe that swinger's chance will connect -- we'll see something magical happen and the Knicks will take a 4th or 5th seed to the Eastern conference finals... but when I think about how I want my favorite team to operate, I'd like to walk into every season with a little more than a swinger's chance. I grew up with that 90's team that made me think every year was a distinct possibility. Now, my general outlook is that we would have to get real lucky.

And that '90's team was based on that one gleaming Debusschere moment of winning the lottery, wasn't it? Or were the '90's era due to all those tremendous draft picks?


EwingsGlass wrote:I wouldn't mortgage our future for that swinger's chance alone, but that is what this organization continually does -- trade draft picks for mediocre players. Trade low price talent for top price players. Its disheartening.
It weighs on the conscience - not in the sense that I am not a Knicks fan, but only that I hope the Knicks would starting acting like the more successful organizations.

Welcome to life in the big city. We don't rebuild. We don't draft well, no actually we draft somewhere south of horribly, and we sign almost only big names to coach. The Greyhound bus for Indiana, Oklahoma City and San Tone is at the terminal, boarding now. I don't know who these top notch organizations are that you're referrring to, so I'm just guessing.

EwingsGlass wrote:So, I am hopeful for this season, that things mesh and they win 54+ games again and do something special. But in my mind, its only a swinger's chance. Its not the kind of dominance that comes from running a top notch organization year in and year out. Its not from the organized plan of redevelopment. So, I apologize if I'm not the kind of excited that I used to have for this team. I'm anxiously waiting for a reason to believe otherwise.

Parting thought:

Top Notch organizations:
Boston Celtics - Hi, Mr. Russell, Mr. Bird, how many times do somebodies like you come along? Not too often apparently.
Lakers - Jerry West, Magic Johnson, Kobe Bryant.
Bulls - MJ
Spurs - Tim Duncan

What other organizations have had more than a puncher's chance (swinger sounds a bit off topic) in any year?

It's the luck of the draft. We were lucky first, 30 years ago. It translated into some entertaining basketball for a over a decade. We came close in '99. Would have loved to have the chance at that one again with Ewing at full strength, meshing with Spree. Alas.

But you could be the Hawks. Or the Wizards. Or the Clips. Or the Nuggets. Or...

Well written by EwingsGlass.

JRod has a point about the luck of the draft. You need luck to draft a Ewing/Bird/Magic/Kobe/MJ/Duncan vs. all the other top 5 picks that never reach that level.

But you have ZERO chance to do so if you keep trading away your draft picks. If you don't have a good chance at winning a ring..you're supposed to bottom out and try to draft the next superstar. Will the Knicks EVER do that with Dolan?

If you say 'Screw the draft. We can just buy our way to contending for a ring.'

That's cool too but we've screwed that up as well. No matter who the GM is the Knicks seems to have an odd habit of overbidding for players when it's the Knicks that have the leverage.

Ex:

Eddy Curry. Doctor's said he had heart issues. No other team (including his own) was lining up to get him. What did the Knicks do? Overpay to get him when there were no other teams bidding up the price.

Ditto for: Jared Jefferies, Jerome James, Andrea Bargnani, JR Smith

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
Bonn1997
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10/14/2013  5:34 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:I disagree that Dirk has better playmaking skills.

Who do you think makes more mistakes (i.e., turnovers or just off target passes) when trying to set up others (Melo or Dirk)? Do you factor that in? I'd say Dirk sets up teammates just slightly less often than Melo does (due to overall low usage) but Melo turns the ball over about twice as often or simply makes an off-target pass that sets the player up poorly at least twice as often as as Dirk does.

Not to jump in but there was an article out about Melo's passing and he actually doesn't turn the ball over that much while passing.


Found it I think.

Following a stretch of three games where Carmelo Anthony has lit up the Knicks’ opponents for a combined 131 points and a Knicks record (tied) three straight 40+ point performances, all anybody can talk about, in regards to him, is his scoring. While I’ve been loving the sky-high scoring numbers, (43.6 PPG, 64.1% FG) what I’ve been more excited about is the wins – 11 sweet ones in a row. Anthony did face very few double teams and often found himself facing off against the likes of Mike Miller, Rashard Lewis and Ersan Ilyasova, so the high totals are nice, but they aren’t enough to blow me away.

One thing that was brought to my attention was that combined in the first two games, Melo had only one single turnover. He did have five last night, a very bad number, but the aforementioned figure enlightened me. Carmelo doesn’t turn the ball over nearly as much as a player with his offensive duties would. He’s averaging 2.7 turnovers a game, nothing extraordinarily low. However, when compared to other qualified small forwards in the league (ESPN lists him as a small forward, no idea why), under an advanced turnover statistic, Turnover Ratio (TO), Anthony ranks just outside of the top-20, pedestrian at first glance. What you have to realize is that no player ahead of him is coming within 10% of his league-leading Usage Percentage (estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor), and only one player (Thaddeus Young) is coming within 5 minutes of Anthony’s 37.2 of game time a night.

Melo’s ball security as a primary ball handler and offensive juggernaut for the Knicks this season is actually historic, believe it or not. As of yesterday (before the evening games), Anthony’s USG%, per Basketball-Reference, is at a 35% mark and his TO% is at a 9.6% mark. Using this threshold, I searched for players with a matching criteria. USG% of 35% and over and TO% of 10% and under, with the inclusion of a 1,000 minutes played boundary, in order to knock away any small sample sizes. What came about all but solidified my understanding of Anthony’s ball security.

Only five players, since the dawn of the NBA, managed these numbers, with Anthony primed to be the sixth, should he continue his level of offensive output and ball security. Here are the names on that list:

George Gervin – 1982 season
Michael Jordan – 1987 & 2002 seasons
Dominique Wilkins – 1988 season
Tracy McGrady – 2003 season
Kobe Bryant – 2006 season

Correct me if I’m wrong, but that seems like some decent company. Now, one rebuttal can be, “but David, Melo doesn’t pass!” Well, when checking up on each player’s AST% (percentage of a player’s possessions ending in an assist) during those seasons, Carmelo ranks fifth among the seven seasons, behind Jordan’s two, McGrady, and Bryant. Sure he’s not the most pass-heavy, but he certainly isn’t the biggest ball-hog, either. (A side note, Melo’s eFG% ranks him third among this same group.)

Speaking of passing, Carmelo Anthony is really good at it. Definitely way above average for a player of his athletic build and scoring ability. I say this right at the people criticizing this portion of Melo’s game, because it’s a flawed and inaccurate criticism. Passing is not where the majority of Anthony’s turnovers come from, he may do it more sporadically than many of us would like, but he’s a gifted distributor. Nbawowy.com has in-depth turnover breakdowns, and when looking at Anthony’s, you’ll see that 12.2% of his giveaways are under the “bad pass” category. About a tenth of every turnover he commits is the fault of an off pass.

The majority of his turnovers? Offensive fouls make up 20.7% of them, and the whopping number one cause is a “steal,” at 45.1%. Not much info lies here, so I took to Synergy Sports to further break down where Anthony has turned the ball over this season. According to Synergy’s play sorting data, Anthony turns the ball over the most on unclassified plays and on post-up tries.

Looking through (each and every one of em’) the unclassified plays, the majority were off-ball offensive fouls. The few turnovers when Anthony had the ball in his hands often came when he attempted to pass the ball within a second of him catching it: rushed passes.

The latter makes a ton of sense, with Anthony often being doubled when working in the low-post, and if it comes down hard enough a double can be ridiculously tough to get the ball out of. Post-up plays account for 20% of Anthony’s offense, only behind isolation attempts. Here is where we’ll find the meat and potatoes of Melo’s turnovers. I dug through each instance of Carmelo turning it over from the low post, and here are the only important points needed to be focused on:

The leading cause was offensive fouls (30% of the turnovers), Melo hooking his arm to swing by an opponent or just bulldozing his way through them. This is where Anthony needs to get smarter.
25% of his turnovers came when Anthony was doubled and was either stripped of the ball or lost it himself. A key indicator of a turnover coming is when you see Melo keeping his head down trying to maintain control of the ball. That’s a no-no.
Bad passes made up merely 10% of Carmelo’s turnovers out of the post, all of which occurred when he was doubled.

The next step in Anthony’s progression as an efficient controller of the basketball is to overcome his over-aggressiveness and learn how to manage being double teamed. Everyone will travel, step out of bounds or lose the ball accidentally once in a blue moon, it’s basketball, it happens. But there lies two serious trends in Anthony’s forays into the paint in which he lowers his shoulder, or pulls away defenders with his off-ball arm. Both are illegal tactics, both rarely ever go unnoticed by referees, in Melo’s case. Anthony’s court vision seems to limit itself when he backs down, as he’s often unable to see a second defender coming who applies immediate pressure, enough so to cause a turnover. Where fellow superstars LeBron and James and Kobe Bryant excel is seeing the double coming and passing out to an open shooter quickly, before the second man can get there. Anthony must develop this skill to cut down on his turnovers.

This article is about Melo’s undeniably strong ball security, but it can always improve. Look at Kevin Durant and LeBron James. Both were superstars two years ago, yet they continually worked on their games, (see: LeBron’s post game and Durant’s distributing/rebounding) elevating them to new levels. Levels where they can compete for the MVP award, at the same time being right in the hunt for an NBA championship. Anthony’s far from a perfect player, and honing one of his most impressive skills can be just as important as developing a new one.

Anthony was not always a savvy player when it comes to protecting the ball, honing a TO% of above 10% in each of his first 8 seasons in the league, before dipping under that threshold in two of his previous three years. Credit is due to his maturation as a player, and his taking upon a much steadier approach to the offensive side of the basketball. Even now though he sometimes finds himself out of control, either rushing or panicking his way into a giveaway.

Nevertheless, he’s still wholesomely remarkable at keeping the ball away from the opposition, and it’s carried over to his teammates. The Knicks are first in the league in lowest TO%, which has been a terrific team effort, but can also be in part due to Anthony’s leadership in this aspect. Leadership, the one quality Knicks fans have been praying for out of Anthony since he’s arrived. Here we see the quality in action, the one that will lead Carmelo and the Knicks to new heights.


Great find! I stand corrected regarding how often he has passing turnovers.
I still don't understand how someone with that high a usage rate could have a pretty low number of assists if they're not a ball-hog. (The author says he isn't.) Maybe a lot of them are bad passes that don't set up the player for a basket but also not bad enough to result in a turnover? Or maybe the author is just wrong when he says Melo isn't a ball-hog?
knickscity
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10/14/2013  6:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/14/2013  6:59 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:I disagree that Dirk has better playmaking skills.

Who do you think makes more mistakes (i.e., turnovers or just off target passes) when trying to set up others (Melo or Dirk)? Do you factor that in? I'd say Dirk sets up teammates just slightly less often than Melo does (due to overall low usage) but Melo turns the ball over about twice as often or simply makes an off-target pass that sets the player up poorly at least twice as often as as Dirk does.

Not to jump in but there was an article out about Melo's passing and he actually doesn't turn the ball over that much while passing.


Found it I think.

Following a stretch of three games where Carmelo Anthony has lit up the Knicks’ opponents for a combined 131 points and a Knicks record (tied) three straight 40+ point performances, all anybody can talk about, in regards to him, is his scoring. While I’ve been loving the sky-high scoring numbers, (43.6 PPG, 64.1% FG) what I’ve been more excited about is the wins – 11 sweet ones in a row. Anthony did face very few double teams and often found himself facing off against the likes of Mike Miller, Rashard Lewis and Ersan Ilyasova, so the high totals are nice, but they aren’t enough to blow me away.

One thing that was brought to my attention was that combined in the first two games, Melo had only one single turnover. He did have five last night, a very bad number, but the aforementioned figure enlightened me. Carmelo doesn’t turn the ball over nearly as much as a player with his offensive duties would. He’s averaging 2.7 turnovers a game, nothing extraordinarily low. However, when compared to other qualified small forwards in the league (ESPN lists him as a small forward, no idea why), under an advanced turnover statistic, Turnover Ratio (TO), Anthony ranks just outside of the top-20, pedestrian at first glance. What you have to realize is that no player ahead of him is coming within 10% of his league-leading Usage Percentage (estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor), and only one player (Thaddeus Young) is coming within 5 minutes of Anthony’s 37.2 of game time a night.

Melo’s ball security as a primary ball handler and offensive juggernaut for the Knicks this season is actually historic, believe it or not. As of yesterday (before the evening games), Anthony’s USG%, per Basketball-Reference, is at a 35% mark and his TO% is at a 9.6% mark. Using this threshold, I searched for players with a matching criteria. USG% of 35% and over and TO% of 10% and under, with the inclusion of a 1,000 minutes played boundary, in order to knock away any small sample sizes. What came about all but solidified my understanding of Anthony’s ball security.

Only five players, since the dawn of the NBA, managed these numbers, with Anthony primed to be the sixth, should he continue his level of offensive output and ball security. Here are the names on that list:

George Gervin – 1982 season
Michael Jordan – 1987 & 2002 seasons
Dominique Wilkins – 1988 season
Tracy McGrady – 2003 season
Kobe Bryant – 2006 season

Correct me if I’m wrong, but that seems like some decent company. Now, one rebuttal can be, “but David, Melo doesn’t pass!” Well, when checking up on each player’s AST% (percentage of a player’s possessions ending in an assist) during those seasons, Carmelo ranks fifth among the seven seasons, behind Jordan’s two, McGrady, and Bryant. Sure he’s not the most pass-heavy, but he certainly isn’t the biggest ball-hog, either. (A side note, Melo’s eFG% ranks him third among this same group.)

Speaking of passing, Carmelo Anthony is really good at it. Definitely way above average for a player of his athletic build and scoring ability. I say this right at the people criticizing this portion of Melo’s game, because it’s a flawed and inaccurate criticism. Passing is not where the majority of Anthony’s turnovers come from, he may do it more sporadically than many of us would like, but he’s a gifted distributor. Nbawowy.com has in-depth turnover breakdowns, and when looking at Anthony’s, you’ll see that 12.2% of his giveaways are under the “bad pass” category. About a tenth of every turnover he commits is the fault of an off pass.

The majority of his turnovers? Offensive fouls make up 20.7% of them, and the whopping number one cause is a “steal,” at 45.1%. Not much info lies here, so I took to Synergy Sports to further break down where Anthony has turned the ball over this season. According to Synergy’s play sorting data, Anthony turns the ball over the most on unclassified plays and on post-up tries.

Looking through (each and every one of em’) the unclassified plays, the majority were off-ball offensive fouls. The few turnovers when Anthony had the ball in his hands often came when he attempted to pass the ball within a second of him catching it: rushed passes.

The latter makes a ton of sense, with Anthony often being doubled when working in the low-post, and if it comes down hard enough a double can be ridiculously tough to get the ball out of. Post-up plays account for 20% of Anthony’s offense, only behind isolation attempts. Here is where we’ll find the meat and potatoes of Melo’s turnovers. I dug through each instance of Carmelo turning it over from the low post, and here are the only important points needed to be focused on:

The leading cause was offensive fouls (30% of the turnovers), Melo hooking his arm to swing by an opponent or just bulldozing his way through them. This is where Anthony needs to get smarter.
25% of his turnovers came when Anthony was doubled and was either stripped of the ball or lost it himself. A key indicator of a turnover coming is when you see Melo keeping his head down trying to maintain control of the ball. That’s a no-no.
Bad passes made up merely 10% of Carmelo’s turnovers out of the post, all of which occurred when he was doubled.

The next step in Anthony’s progression as an efficient controller of the basketball is to overcome his over-aggressiveness and learn how to manage being double teamed. Everyone will travel, step out of bounds or lose the ball accidentally once in a blue moon, it’s basketball, it happens. But there lies two serious trends in Anthony’s forays into the paint in which he lowers his shoulder, or pulls away defenders with his off-ball arm. Both are illegal tactics, both rarely ever go unnoticed by referees, in Melo’s case. Anthony’s court vision seems to limit itself when he backs down, as he’s often unable to see a second defender coming who applies immediate pressure, enough so to cause a turnover. Where fellow superstars LeBron and James and Kobe Bryant excel is seeing the double coming and passing out to an open shooter quickly, before the second man can get there. Anthony must develop this skill to cut down on his turnovers.

This article is about Melo’s undeniably strong ball security, but it can always improve. Look at Kevin Durant and LeBron James. Both were superstars two years ago, yet they continually worked on their games, (see: LeBron’s post game and Durant’s distributing/rebounding) elevating them to new levels. Levels where they can compete for the MVP award, at the same time being right in the hunt for an NBA championship. Anthony’s far from a perfect player, and honing one of his most impressive skills can be just as important as developing a new one.

Anthony was not always a savvy player when it comes to protecting the ball, honing a TO% of above 10% in each of his first 8 seasons in the league, before dipping under that threshold in two of his previous three years. Credit is due to his maturation as a player, and his taking upon a much steadier approach to the offensive side of the basketball. Even now though he sometimes finds himself out of control, either rushing or panicking his way into a giveaway.

Nevertheless, he’s still wholesomely remarkable at keeping the ball away from the opposition, and it’s carried over to his teammates. The Knicks are first in the league in lowest TO%, which has been a terrific team effort, but can also be in part due to Anthony’s leadership in this aspect. Leadership, the one quality Knicks fans have been praying for out of Anthony since he’s arrived. Here we see the quality in action, the one that will lead Carmelo and the Knicks to new heights.


Great find! I stand corrected regarding how often he has passing turnovers.
I still don't understand how someone with that high a usage rate could have a pretty low number of assists if they're not a ball-hog. (The author says he isn't.) Maybe a lot of them are bad passes that don't set up the player for a basket but also not bad enough to result in a turnover? Or maybe the author is just wrong when he says Melo isn't a ball-hog?

Usually if it isnt a feed into the paint, he wont get credit for an assist, his passes to the wing is usually because of a double, so the player on the wing doesnt shoot but swing the ball in an effort to get it back to melo.

that article is well written, props given.

EwingsGlass
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10/15/2013  10:23 AM
jrodmc wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:I am going to weigh in for a second. I think that although the current Knicks are a firm improvement over the prior decade of despicable play, they give themselves the look of a contender only in the sense of a fighter walking into a fight with a swinger's chance. You can call building a contender a process, but for the foreseeable future, we are only walking in with a swinger's chance. Title elimination material. And maybe that swinger's chance will connect -- we'll see something magical happen and the Knicks will take a 4th or 5th seed to the Eastern conference finals... but when I think about how I want my favorite team to operate, I'd like to walk into every season with a little more than a swinger's chance. I grew up with that 90's team that made me think every year was a distinct possibility. Now, my general outlook is that we would have to get real lucky.

And that '90's team was based on that one gleaming Debusschere moment of winning the lottery, wasn't it? Or were the '90's era due to all those tremendous draft picks?


EwingsGlass wrote:I wouldn't mortgage our future for that swinger's chance alone, but that is what this organization continually does -- trade draft picks for mediocre players. Trade low price talent for top price players. Its disheartening.
It weighs on the conscience - not in the sense that I am not a Knicks fan, but only that I hope the Knicks would starting acting like the more successful organizations.

Welcome to life in the big city. We don't rebuild. We don't draft well, no actually we draft somewhere south of horribly, and we sign almost only big names to coach. The Greyhound bus for Indiana, Oklahoma City and San Tone is at the terminal, boarding now. I don't know who these top notch organizations are that you're referrring to, so I'm just guessing.

EwingsGlass wrote:So, I am hopeful for this season, that things mesh and they win 54+ games again and do something special. But in my mind, its only a swinger's chance. Its not the kind of dominance that comes from running a top notch organization year in and year out. Its not from the organized plan of redevelopment. So, I apologize if I'm not the kind of excited that I used to have for this team. I'm anxiously waiting for a reason to believe otherwise.

Parting thought:

Top Notch organizations:
Boston Celtics - Hi, Mr. Russell, Mr. Bird, how many times do somebodies like you come along? Not too often apparently.
Lakers - Jerry West, Magic Johnson, Kobe Bryant.
Bulls - MJ
Spurs - Tim Duncan

What other organizations have had more than a puncher's chance (swinger sounds a bit off topic) in any year?

It's the luck of the draft. We were lucky first, 30 years ago. It translated into some entertaining basketball for a over a decade. We came close in '99. Would have loved to have the chance at that one again with Ewing at full strength, meshing with Spree. Alas.

But you could be the Hawks. Or the Wizards. Or the Clips. Or the Nuggets. Or...

1) Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not. You forgot the [/sarc]. I think the 93 Knicks had a little bit of everything. A 1st overall pick. An undrafted all star. A defensive stalwart acquired by trade. A future 6th man of the year signed as a free agent. A top of the line coach. A core team that had been together for years and became known for manhandling other teams.

2) I actually think that when the Knicks actually HAVE draft picks, they use them incredibly well. I hated the Jordan Hill pick, but other than that, I can't really think they wasted a 1st round pick. And we all know that Stephen Curry would have been that pick had GS not grabbed him. I think that the Knick's undervalue draft picks, particularly under this CBA. However, they are correctly understanding the benefit of the Vet Minimum.

3) Certainly the Spurs. Oklahoma is handling things correctly. Celts obviously. Lakers always. Bulls might have been luck. I think to lay it all down to luck makes no sense. Cavs had the most luck, but they didnt have the organization to keep Lebron. Miami had a better organization and a fistful of dollars.

4) It's not that we should walk into the season as the favorite every year, its that I don't want to mortgage the future for nothing more than the swinger's chance. Should we give up a 2016 draft pick to go from having a 3% chance of winning it all to 3.25%? That's the analysis the front office should be making. Specifically because this organization has done historically well with the draft picks they had.

Either way, go Knicks!

You know I gonna spin wit it
If You Cannot Watch The Knicks With A Fresh Outlook, Why Torture Yourself?

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