knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:If the Knicks didn't have major cap space coming to them in 2 yrs I would understand the pessimism. Knicks probably won't win the championship this season. But they have enough talent to compete now and then an opportunity to set the team up for a long stretch.

There aren't many teams that can win a championship with 23mil in dead weight. Bargs is boom or bust in our situation its worth the shot.

Melo will likely opt out and take that 23 mil starting salary.... by 2015 he'll be making 25 mil.

Not much left when you have roster holds to account for.

That may not be the case, even if it was the cap holds only matter for players we are looking to resign or keep. If free agents Rondo and Aldridge wanted to become Knicks we would have the flexibility to make moves to sign them or decide what's what. We would also have the ability to pawn players for picks if need be. If Shump turns into an all star caliber player by this time then we just resign him and try to bring in one more big fish.

I trust Woody when it comes to getting thru to his players and getting them to believe and buy in. If Woody has the impact on AB that he had on STAT and JR, then he'll be a huge plus for this team. Woody's word has clout because STAT's low post work was successful and JR did in fact win the Sixth Man of the year award as he told him he could. That kind of success gives Woody a big boost with his players that he can point to and they will believe.

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm not worried about 2 years from now. In the NBA that's a long time. This team made the changes they could make and for the most part I think they did a good job. There are no slam dunks when you're as limited in your options as the Knicks were, but they did a good job of taking a low risk, high reward player like Bargnani. Even in his worst season he still wasn't as bad as the guys we let go for him. His upside is very high considering his talent level. If Woody can restore his confidence and give him a great role this year, AB is gonna flourish and help this team. That's a positive step.

I trust Woody when it comes to getting thru to his players and getting them to believe and buy in. If Woody has the impact on AB that he had on STAT and JR, then he'll be a huge plus for this team. Woody's word has clout because STAT's low post work was successful and JR did in fact win the Sixth Man of the year award as he told him he could. That kind of success gives Woody a big boost with his players that he can point to and they will believe.

THAT IS THE kind of thinking that will keep teams from being GREAT...

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm not worried about 2 years from now. In the NBA that's a long time. This team made the changes they could make and for the most part I think they did a good job. There are no slam dunks when you're as limited in your options as the Knicks were, but they did a good job of taking a low risk, high reward player like Bargnani. Even in his worst season he still wasn't as bad as the guys we let go for him. His upside is very high considering his talent level. If Woody can restore his confidence and give him a great role this year, AB is gonna flourish and help this team. That's a positive step.

I trust Woody when it comes to getting thru to his players and getting them to believe and buy in. If Woody has the impact on AB that he had on STAT and JR, then he'll be a huge plus for this team. Woody's word has clout because STAT's low post work was successful and JR did in fact win the Sixth Man of the year award as he told him he could. That kind of success gives Woody a big boost with his players that he can point to and they will believe.

THAT IS THE kind of thinking that will keep teams from being GREAT...

Its not like the Knicks gave up what they did in the Curry, Dice or McGrady trade. Two very late second round picks and a compromised first rounder three years from now wasn't going to change the fortune of the Knicks no matter how you spin it. Bargs was a limited gamble. Minimally he creates more cap space and is better on the court then the guys that left in the trade. There also is the potential for him to be much more then that and to flourish in a different situation. This is Grunwald's third offseason and his first where he traded a first round pick. Three offseasons of not trading a first rounder and suddenly it is same old knicks.

bad moves are bad moves.. now there are degrees of how bad the moves are, but lesser bad moves should not be welcome.. plain and simple..

let me ask you this? do you ever want the knicks to become a franchise on the level of the spurs? I do... tell me, the way we are doing business you think we will ever get there?

sports is similar to things in life.. I look at what successful people do. i consider myself very smart and somewhat successful... but i surround myself with people who are even better and smarter than me... and I tend to reject the very same things they do. I tend to develop the same standards... If you want to be great, then you need to start doing things great people and teams do..

Carmelo, Bargnani, are not what great teams are looking for.. Trading picks and assets as if they are useless are not what great franchises do....

I want the knicks to be great damnit!!!!!!!!!!!! 30 years and counting and I have no time for the bullshyt!!!!!!

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm not worried about 2 years from now. In the NBA that's a long time. This team made the changes they could make and for the most part I think they did a good job. There are no slam dunks when you're as limited in your options as the Knicks were, but they did a good job of taking a low risk, high reward player like Bargnani. Even in his worst season he still wasn't as bad as the guys we let go for him. His upside is very high considering his talent level. If Woody can restore his confidence and give him a great role this year, AB is gonna flourish and help this team. That's a positive step.

I trust Woody when it comes to getting thru to his players and getting them to believe and buy in. If Woody has the impact on AB that he had on STAT and JR, then he'll be a huge plus for this team. Woody's word has clout because STAT's low post work was successful and JR did in fact win the Sixth Man of the year award as he told him he could. That kind of success gives Woody a big boost with his players that he can point to and they will believe.

THAT IS THE kind of thinking that will keep teams from being GREAT...

I said that how i'm thinking, that's not what the Knicks brass are thinking. Clearly they're also thinking about the future and have crafted this team to be one they can retool in 2 years. It used to be that rational Knicks fans would actually understand that kind of forward thinking, but it seems some fans can only complain and dream about some fantasy were we draft the next Lebron. I can honestly state that the only player even close to being the next Lebron was KD and so drafts go by without a transformational talent like Lebron. There are so few players that can practically guarantee a team a title. It's foolish to place all your hopes on landing that player. Even if you get the 1st pick in 3 drafts in a row you can't guarantee that you'll get that kind of player.

The best this team can do is to build the best team they can around Melo and then let it play out over the next 2 seasons. After that they can start from scratch if they want to or try to resign Melo and retool again, but it's gonna be up to them how they handle it. Just be honest about the prospect of building thru the draft. It's not a process guaranteed to produce a title. This is why they look at the FA market. A team can spend years trying to lose and get a high draft pick and still not land a winner. It's not that simple.

clearly they haven't!! if you are thinking about the future you keep picks.. this cap space I tell you will not be here in 2015.. stop fooling yourself bro...

The best this team can do is to build the best team they can around Melo and then let it play out over the next 2 seasons.

No that isn't, what the knicks are doing is fooling fans and wasting time...

let me give you an example... you and your wife want to move into a nicer neighborhood so you can send your kid to the best school in the city. so you have a plan. you will rent a cheaper place for a year or two and by time your kid is ready for school, you can afford to move. So you get that 2 bedroom flat with the leaky faucet, but it will do, you have a goal, a plan.. save money, keep your eye on the real prize..

now that is plan, looking forward.. what the knicks are doing is this:

They say, well we have an image to keep up, so lets dress up this leaky flat with granite counter tops, flat screen TV's and oh, we have to have a nice car so our friends don't think we are poor.. we have an image to uphold.. now will this improve their living conditions? on the surface yes, but again, is this going to get them closer to their goal? no.. actually it puts them further out..

and this is how the NY knicks do business...

The Knicks have a ton of cap space in 2015, suggesting otherwise is flat out making crap up

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm not worried about 2 years from now. In the NBA that's a long time. This team made the changes they could make and for the most part I think they did a good job. There are no slam dunks when you're as limited in your options as the Knicks were, but they did a good job of taking a low risk, high reward player like Bargnani. Even in his worst season he still wasn't as bad as the guys we let go for him. His upside is very high considering his talent level. If Woody can restore his confidence and give him a great role this year, AB is gonna flourish and help this team. That's a positive step.

I trust Woody when it comes to getting thru to his players and getting them to believe and buy in. If Woody has the impact on AB that he had on STAT and JR, then he'll be a huge plus for this team. Woody's word has clout because STAT's low post work was successful and JR did in fact win the Sixth Man of the year award as he told him he could. That kind of success gives Woody a big boost with his players that he can point to and they will believe.

THAT IS THE kind of thinking that will keep teams from being GREAT...

I said that how i'm thinking, that's not what the Knicks brass are thinking. Clearly they're also thinking about the future and have crafted this team to be one they can retool in 2 years. It used to be that rational Knicks fans would actually understand that kind of forward thinking, but it seems some fans can only complain and dream about some fantasy were we draft the next Lebron. I can honestly state that the only player even close to being the next Lebron was KD and so drafts go by without a transformational talent like Lebron. There are so few players that can practically guarantee a team a title. It's foolish to place all your hopes on landing that player. Even if you get the 1st pick in 3 drafts in a row you can't guarantee that you'll get that kind of player.

The best this team can do is to build the best team they can around Melo and then let it play out over the next 2 seasons. After that they can start from scratch if they want to or try to resign Melo and retool again, but it's gonna be up to them how they handle it. Just be honest about the prospect of building thru the draft. It's not a process guaranteed to produce a title. This is why they look at the FA market. A team can spend years trying to lose and get a high draft pick and still not land a winner. It's not that simple.

clearly they haven't!! if you are thinking about the future you keep picks.. this cap space I tell you will not be here in 2015.. stop fooling yourself bro...

The best this team can do is to build the best team they can around Melo and then let it play out over the next 2 seasons.

No that isn't, what the knicks are doing is fooling fans and wasting time...

let me give you an example... you and your wife want to move into a nicer neighborhood so you can send your kid to the best school in the city. so you have a plan. you will rent a cheaper place for a year or two and by time your kid is ready for school, you can afford to move. So you get that 2 bedroom flat with the leaky faucet, but it will do, you have a goal, a plan.. save money, keep your eye on the real prize..

now that is plan, looking forward.. what the knicks are doing is this:

They say, well we have an image to keep up, so lets dress up this leaky flat with granite counter tops, flat screen TV's and oh, we have to have a nice car so our friends don't think we are poor.. we have an image to uphold.. now will this improve their living conditions? on the surface yes, but again, is this going to get them closer to their goal? no.. actually it puts them further out..

and this is how the NY knicks do business...

The Knicks have a ton of cap space in 2015, suggesting otherwise is flat out making crap up

martin we have been down this road.. so basically you are saying carmelo anthony will be gone.. if so, I am fine with that 100%.. so we will have cap space.. and no carmelo. I can roll with that.. we wont' have picks as usually, but hey, we can use our cap space to sign kevin love and rudy gay... lets roll...

Don't the Knicks have their 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019 first round Draft picks?

http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knicks.htm

ChuckBuck wrote:

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm not worried about 2 years from now. In the NBA that's a long time. This team made the changes they could make and for the most part I think they did a good job. There are no slam dunks when you're as limited in your options as the Knicks were, but they did a good job of taking a low risk, high reward player like Bargnani. Even in his worst season he still wasn't as bad as the guys we let go for him. His upside is very high considering his talent level. If Woody can restore his confidence and give him a great role this year, AB is gonna flourish and help this team. That's a positive step.

I trust Woody when it comes to getting thru to his players and getting them to believe and buy in. If Woody has the impact on AB that he had on STAT and JR, then he'll be a huge plus for this team. Woody's word has clout because STAT's low post work was successful and JR did in fact win the Sixth Man of the year award as he told him he could. That kind of success gives Woody a big boost with his players that he can point to and they will believe.

THAT IS THE kind of thinking that will keep teams from being GREAT...

I said that how i'm thinking, that's not what the Knicks brass are thinking. Clearly they're also thinking about the future and have crafted this team to be one they can retool in 2 years. It used to be that rational Knicks fans would actually understand that kind of forward thinking, but it seems some fans can only complain and dream about some fantasy were we draft the next Lebron. I can honestly state that the only player even close to being the next Lebron was KD and so drafts go by without a transformational talent like Lebron. There are so few players that can practically guarantee a team a title. It's foolish to place all your hopes on landing that player. Even if you get the 1st pick in 3 drafts in a row you can't guarantee that you'll get that kind of player.

The best this team can do is to build the best team they can around Melo and then let it play out over the next 2 seasons. After that they can start from scratch if they want to or try to resign Melo and retool again, but it's gonna be up to them how they handle it. Just be honest about the prospect of building thru the draft. It's not a process guaranteed to produce a title. This is why they look at the FA market. A team can spend years trying to lose and get a high draft pick and still not land a winner. It's not that simple.

clearly they haven't!! if you are thinking about the future you keep picks.. this cap space I tell you will not be here in 2015.. stop fooling yourself bro...

The best this team can do is to build the best team they can around Melo and then let it play out over the next 2 seasons.

No that isn't, what the knicks are doing is fooling fans and wasting time...

let me give you an example... you and your wife want to move into a nicer neighborhood so you can send your kid to the best school in the city. so you have a plan. you will rent a cheaper place for a year or two and by time your kid is ready for school, you can afford to move. So you get that 2 bedroom flat with the leaky faucet, but it will do, you have a goal, a plan.. save money, keep your eye on the real prize..

now that is plan, looking forward.. what the knicks are doing is this:

They say, well we have an image to keep up, so lets dress up this leaky flat with granite counter tops, flat screen TV's and oh, we have to have a nice car so our friends don't think we are poor.. we have an image to uphold.. now will this improve their living conditions? on the surface yes, but again, is this going to get them closer to their goal? no.. actually it puts them further out..

and this is how the NY knicks do business...

The Knicks have a ton of cap space in 2015, suggesting otherwise is flat out making crap up

martin we have been down this road.. so basically you are saying carmelo anthony will be gone.. if so, I am fine with that 100%.. so we will have cap space.. and no carmelo. I can roll with that.. we wont' have picks as usually, but hey, we can use our cap space to sign kevin love and rudy gay... lets roll...

Don't the Knicks have their 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019 first round Draft picks?

http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knicks.htm

why not go out to year 2040? the point is, I am cool with waiting out till that time as long as we do things right, but we are talking 2015... are you telling me we are going to build a team by 2015 waiting on picks from 2017-2019? we won't have a 2014 or 2016 pick.. NONE, and when you are looking at rebuulding, especially in a 5 year window, that hurts...

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:martin we have been down this road.. so basically you are saying carmelo anthony will be gone.. if so, I am fine with that 100%.. so we will have cap space.. and no carmelo. I can roll with that.. we wont' have picks as usual, but hey, we can use our cap space to sign kevin love and rudy gay... lets roll...

so now martin, what is it? cap space and no carmelo? otherwise I am not the one making crap up..

what part of "the Knicks will have a ton of cap space in 2015" don't you understand? It's up to the GM to use it the best way he can after that.

martin, we won't have a ton of cap space if carmelo opts out and we foolishly resign him.. point blank, period!

lets break this down martin.. the cap by then should be around 59-61 mil... if carmelo resigns that will leave us around 30 mil, with carmelo and like 4 other players.... you have to fill out the roster, and this is where having your picks help.. had we had our 2014 pick and our 2016 picks you can fill in with cheap young talent... so with 30 mil you probably can get one more max level contract... that is not a TON of cap space martin,especially with an empty roster.. but if carmelo doesn't resign.. I agree we would have a ton of cap space, again that is factoring no more moves are made that would add salary.. can you guarantee that?

so again I ask. does your ton of cap space include carmelo, or not?... simple question

I can't even follow your logic. Do it like this:

Player          Salary
-----------------------------------
Melo            $
Shump           $
-----------------------------------
Total:          $

ChuckBuck wrote:

tkf wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm not worried about 2 years from now. In the NBA that's a long time. This team made the changes they could make and for the most part I think they did a good job. There are no slam dunks when you're as limited in your options as the Knicks were, but they did a good job of taking a low risk, high reward player like Bargnani. Even in his worst season he still wasn't as bad as the guys we let go for him. His upside is very high considering his talent level. If Woody can restore his confidence and give him a great role this year, AB is gonna flourish and help this team. That's a positive step.

I trust Woody when it comes to getting thru to his players and getting them to believe and buy in. If Woody has the impact on AB that he had on STAT and JR, then he'll be a huge plus for this team. Woody's word has clout because STAT's low post work was successful and JR did in fact win the Sixth Man of the year award as he told him he could. That kind of success gives Woody a big boost with his players that he can point to and they will believe.

THAT IS THE kind of thinking that will keep teams from being GREAT...

I said that how i'm thinking, that's not what the Knicks brass are thinking. Clearly they're also thinking about the future and have crafted this team to be one they can retool in 2 years. It used to be that rational Knicks fans would actually understand that kind of forward thinking, but it seems some fans can only complain and dream about some fantasy were we draft the next Lebron. I can honestly state that the only player even close to being the next Lebron was KD and so drafts go by without a transformational talent like Lebron. There are so few players that can practically guarantee a team a title. It's foolish to place all your hopes on landing that player. Even if you get the 1st pick in 3 drafts in a row you can't guarantee that you'll get that kind of player.

The best this team can do is to build the best team they can around Melo and then let it play out over the next 2 seasons. After that they can start from scratch if they want to or try to resign Melo and retool again, but it's gonna be up to them how they handle it. Just be honest about the prospect of building thru the draft. It's not a process guaranteed to produce a title. This is why they look at the FA market. A team can spend years trying to lose and get a high draft pick and still not land a winner. It's not that simple.

clearly they haven't!! if you are thinking about the future you keep picks.. this cap space I tell you will not be here in 2015.. stop fooling yourself bro...

The best this team can do is to build the best team they can around Melo and then let it play out over the next 2 seasons.

No that isn't, what the knicks are doing is fooling fans and wasting time...

let me give you an example... you and your wife want to move into a nicer neighborhood so you can send your kid to the best school in the city. so you have a plan. you will rent a cheaper place for a year or two and by time your kid is ready for school, you can afford to move. So you get that 2 bedroom flat with the leaky faucet, but it will do, you have a goal, a plan.. save money, keep your eye on the real prize..

now that is plan, looking forward.. what the knicks are doing is this:

They say, well we have an image to keep up, so lets dress up this leaky flat with granite counter tops, flat screen TV's and oh, we have to have a nice car so our friends don't think we are poor.. we have an image to uphold.. now will this improve their living conditions? on the surface yes, but again, is this going to get them closer to their goal? no.. actually it puts them further out..

and this is how the NY knicks do business...

The Knicks have a ton of cap space in 2015, suggesting otherwise is flat out making crap up

martin we have been down this road.. so basically you are saying carmelo anthony will be gone.. if so, I am fine with that 100%.. so we will have cap space.. and no carmelo. I can roll with that.. we wont' have picks as usually, but hey, we can use our cap space to sign kevin love and rudy gay... lets roll...

Don't the Knicks have their 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019 first round Draft picks?

http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knicks.htm

why not go out to year 2040? the point is, I am cool with waiting out till that time as long as we do things right, but we are talking 2015... are you telling me we are going to build a team by 2015 waiting on picks from 2017-2019? we won't have a 2014 or 2016 pick.. NONE, and when you are looking at rebuulding, especially in a 5 year window, that hurts...

So we do have draft picks then, 4 years out of the 5 years we have 1st rounders and in some cases 2nd rounders, and coincidentally starting with the year we have tons of cap space in 2015. I guess there is a plan! Who knew?!!?? What's your beef again?

my beef is that over the next 5 years,starting now.. we dont' have picks in 2 of those years, at all, can't build without having picks in consecutive years... that is my beef.. but again, do you honestly think knicks won't add any salary between now and then?

hmmm ok....

but going with your reasoning then we should not resign carmelo.. do you think he will be on board with rebuilding while he is in his 30's... you are not being realistic bro... not at all...