Papabear wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:lots of battered-wife syndromers is how you break it down. ironic that dolan runs things and yet he is so obviously a milquetoast, but when you have money it can insulate you from personal defects. dolan is not interested in winning he is interested in putting asses in seats regardless of the actual quality of the team. he also loves stars. and he surrounds himself with yes-men. dolan always finds a way to alienate or force away good people.

the fish rots from the head down.

Going by your logic, I dont see how anyone can have "battered-wife syndrome" worse than those who dislike/hate this team yet still continue to frequent message boards dedicated to it

for me it has been a swing between rubbernecking and being a coroner. i am not in denial like a battered wife is. i am a realist but there are many so-called knick fans who seem to be inhabiting a bizarro world where everything is upside-down and backwards.

when the knicks show the potential for reaching the finals-- hell even a potential strong showing in the conference finals-- there will be justification for genuine excitement. i was moving in that direction the first 15-20 games but started seeing the cracks around the first houston game. since then i have receded back to skepticism and now it's going to take some real re-grouping and leadership to right this listing ship.

look at my signature. ask yourself if the knicks look like a finals-caliber team or even a conference finals team. that's where my point of view radiates from. i am thinking ahead not living in the moment like so many here are willing to do, echoing the battered-wife syndrome of hopes and prayers.

If you have "receded back into skepticism" then you aint a real fan. REAL fans take a loss , and move on and not dwell on it,the same with a win,take it and look to the next game. Some of yall will pick apart a loss like a crow on road kill but they STFU when our team wins. THOSE are not real fans.

Papabear Says

cooch2584 I suspect the TKF and dk7th are the same person and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.

Are you saying it's one guy that keeps running between two different computers on opposite sides of the same town? You know how much he has to walk to respond to himself then?

I doubt TKF and dk7th are the same, tkf is a UK/realgm legend, first of all and dk7th is a newbie

cooch2584 wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:

Papabear wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:lots of battered-wife syndromers is how you break it down. ironic that dolan runs things and yet he is so obviously a milquetoast, but when you have money it can insulate you from personal defects. dolan is not interested in winning he is interested in putting asses in seats regardless of the actual quality of the team. he also loves stars. and he surrounds himself with yes-men. dolan always finds a way to alienate or force away good people.

the fish rots from the head down.

Going by your logic, I dont see how anyone can have "battered-wife syndrome" worse than those who dislike/hate this team yet still continue to frequent message boards dedicated to it

for me it has been a swing between rubbernecking and being a coroner. i am not in denial like a battered wife is. i am a realist but there are many so-called knick fans who seem to be inhabiting a bizarro world where everything is upside-down and backwards.

when the knicks show the potential for reaching the finals-- hell even a potential strong showing in the conference finals-- there will be justification for genuine excitement. i was moving in that direction the first 15-20 games but started seeing the cracks around the first houston game. since then i have receded back to skepticism and now it's going to take some real re-grouping and leadership to right this listing ship.

look at my signature. ask yourself if the knicks look like a finals-caliber team or even a conference finals team. that's where my point of view radiates from. i am thinking ahead not living in the moment like so many here are willing to do, echoing the battered-wife syndrome of hopes and prayers.

If you have "receded back into skepticism" then you aint a real fan. REAL fans take a loss , and move on and not dwell on it,the same with a win,take it and look to the next game. Some of yall will pick apart a loss like a crow on road kill but they STFU when our team wins. THOSE are not real fans.

Papabear Says

cooch2584 I suspect the TKF and dk7th are the same person and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.

Are you saying it's one guy that keeps running between two different computers on opposite sides of the same town? You know how much he has to walk to respond to himself then?

I doubt TKF and dk7th are the same, tkf is a UK/realgm legend, first of all and dk7th is a newbie

Where did you get that tkf is a legend?? I bet he told you from his own mouth. NO ONE on this board is a legend,{props to Martin and Andrew) tkf was kicked off the realgm board,is that a legend? And walking opposite sides of town? COME ON theres SOOOO many ways around that. GET REAL

Are you suggesting he uses a bicycle or roller skates? I doubt he drives between the two locations because you gotta turn the car on, there might be traffic, it's probably a smaller town so it's easier to get around on foot/bike

cooch2584 wrote:

knickscity wrote:They aren't the same poster, one debates from statistics, the other from his ass.

Typical alter ego,tkf/dk7th

knickscity wrote:They aren't the same poster, one debates from statistics, the other from his ass.

Not interested in the same poster debate, but ill tell you that the stats guy has no clue what he's talking about either. Trust.

Hersports85 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

3G4G wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

Papabear wrote:

tkf wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

sebstar wrote:

franco12 wrote:its not just the Melo trade - its every deal made over the last 5-10 years.

This franchise is essentially over-leveraged like a bank - and they borrow against tomorrow for a mediocre today.

Letting Lin go for nothing is just one more example of mismanagement.

Signing Amar'e when we missed out on Lebron - another move that might have been better played by keeping Lee (possibly at a home team discount?) rather than signing a star just for the sake of making a move.

Great post...to flesh this out, we essentially traded Zach, crawford, lee, and two lottery pics just to have the OPTION of signing lebron james and another big free agent. That strategy failed, and all we had to show for it was Amare, who is broken down.

Thats the reason why we had to rely on older talent...not the melo trade. We gave up mediocre talent for a top 5 player in his prime. Get real. The cupboard was bare when melo was traded her, because of the mismanagement of the previous regime.

We got Amar'e, who got Felton and Melo, who got JR and Tyson, who got Kidd, Camby and Sheed. Fair or not, Zach Randolph and Crawford were not draws to other players.

And I get so sick of this blazing hypocrisy and revisionist history. People HATED Zach for his lack of defense. They spent Jamal Crawford's entire stint here blasting him for shot selection and poor defense. People wined none stop about 'Avid Lee' and his complete lack of D. Now they are gods, while people blast the players we do have. Its the same c*** over and over! AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!

a boatload of money got us amare, money got felton, money and stupidity got us carmelo, money got JR and money sure as hell got us tyson chandler.. a 3 year deal and money got us kidd, a ridiculous trade got us camby....

Papabear Says

TKF why in the hell are you a Knicks Fan??? Or are you? You hate the team players you mentioned you hate the owner. Why don't you just go be a Denver fan? Jump the ship. I read some of your posts and its a hate thing with you. You really don't like the Knicks so just admit it. You are not a New York Knicks Fan. You hate the Knicks. ADMIT IT !!

why are you a knicks fan? or are you? start with the owner on down.. you defend this team at all cost.... you like herb williams, dolan? all the trades? salary position.... future outlook? break it down for me...

lots of battered-wife syndromers is how you break it down. ironic that dolan runs things and yet he is so obviously a milquetoast, but when you have money it can insulate you from personal defects. dolan is not interested in winning he is interested in putting asses in seats regardless of the actual quality of the team. he also loves stars. and he surrounds himself with yes-men. dolan always finds a way to alienate or force away good people.

the fish rots from the head down.

exactly..., it does... i dislike dolan as much as I do the maloofs.. the NBA just found a way to get those clowns out of town. now time to work on this fool here at msg...

Ironically ticket sales are down 9% at the Garden in a year which the team is supposedly built to win now? Go Figure

fewer seats this year until the renovations are finished

Dude you're reaching here bro.....

Here's Wiki's info for Basketball

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison_Square_Garden 19,033

Knicks vs Bulls second game of season(No Derrick Rose)
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278103 19,033

Knicks vs Bulls yesterday(No Derrick Rose Melo coming off suspension
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278254 19,033

Knicks vs Bulls Feb 2 last year(Derrick Rose played)
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320202018 19,763

Now we know attendance during games is fudged a little but ticket sales down 9% has very little to do with renovation, it has more to do with average ticket price which the Knicks recently hiked up the average price of admission to alarming levels.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7529476/nba-average-ticket-price-increases-first-time-three-years

To a somewhat smaller degree but it will affect overall percentages factor Brooklyn Nets moving to town. 9% of an arena at near 20,000 capacity would be about 1800 seats missing at an average of $117.50/seat.... do the math, do you think in your right Dolan would take those losses. Uhhhh No!

Fact:

The real MSG capacity is 19,763, though most of us round up because it sounds cooler.

With the second stage of the Garden transformation nearly complete, the Garden capacity will fall about 1,000 lower than the usual 19,763 sell-out crowd, according to team officials.

Link for your reading: http://www.postingandtoasting.com/2012/10/18/3521094/madison-square-gardens-capacity-will-shrink-a-bit-this-season

Having 730 less seats creates a 3.5% drop in potential ticket sales but sales are down 9%. Your link provided was more proof it's not totally related to renovation is has a factor but there are others.

Where are you getting 9%

Atlanta Hawks: 4% Increase
Boston Celtics: 7% Decrease
Brooklyn Nets: 105% Increase
Charlotte Bobcats: 41% Increase
Chicago Bulls: 27% Decrease
Cleveland Cavaliers: 59% Increase
Dallas Mavericks: 7% Decrease
Denver Nuggets: 1% Decrease
Detroit Pistons: 17% Decrease
Golden State Warriors: 8% Increase
Houston Rockets: 4% Decrease
Indiana Pacers: 25% Decrease
Los Angeles Clippers: 16% Increase
Los Angeles Lakers: 21% Increase
Memphis Grizzlies: 1% Increase
Miami Heat: 6% Increase
Milwaukee Bucks: 22% Decrease
Minnesota Timberwolves: 1% Increase
New Orleans Hornets: 99% Increase
New York Knicks: 9% Decrease
Oklanhoma City Thunder: 1% Increase
Orlando Magic: 4% Decrease
Philadelphia 76ers: 7% Decrease
Phoenix Suns: 7% Decrease
Portland Trail Blazers: 13% Increase
Sacramento Kings: 7% Decrease
San Antonio Spurs: 9% Decrease
Toronto Raptors: 12% Decrease
Utah Jazz: 7% Decrease
Washington Wizards: 4% Increase

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/225545/Nets_Bulls_Have_NBAs_Largest_Increase/Decrease_In_Secondary_Ticket_Prices_From_Last_Season

I'd also wager the sales are based on capacity ratio to sales. Like when we had 19,763 capacity last year what were the sales.....Now that we have 19,033 capacity what are the sales. I don't believe because we have less capacity that's how the sales % is being calculated from the previous year.

knickscity wrote:What is the "secondary market"?

Ticket sales from outlets other than directly from the company/corporate sales. So they see a drop in sales from places like Ticket Master/StubHub/Live Nation/TicketNetwork/TicketLiquidators any outfit that brokers tickets for these sport franchises.

3G4G wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

3G4G wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

Papabear wrote:

tkf wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

sebstar wrote:

franco12 wrote:its not just the Melo trade - its every deal made over the last 5-10 years.

This franchise is essentially over-leveraged like a bank - and they borrow against tomorrow for a mediocre today.

Letting Lin go for nothing is just one more example of mismanagement.

Signing Amar'e when we missed out on Lebron - another move that might have been better played by keeping Lee (possibly at a home team discount?) rather than signing a star just for the sake of making a move.

Great post...to flesh this out, we essentially traded Zach, crawford, lee, and two lottery pics just to have the OPTION of signing lebron james and another big free agent. That strategy failed, and all we had to show for it was Amare, who is broken down.

Thats the reason why we had to rely on older talent...not the melo trade. We gave up mediocre talent for a top 5 player in his prime. Get real. The cupboard was bare when melo was traded her, because of the mismanagement of the previous regime.

We got Amar'e, who got Felton and Melo, who got JR and Tyson, who got Kidd, Camby and Sheed. Fair or not, Zach Randolph and Crawford were not draws to other players.

And I get so sick of this blazing hypocrisy and revisionist history. People HATED Zach for his lack of defense. They spent Jamal Crawford's entire stint here blasting him for shot selection and poor defense. People wined none stop about 'Avid Lee' and his complete lack of D. Now they are gods, while people blast the players we do have. Its the same c*** over and over! AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!

a boatload of money got us amare, money got felton, money and stupidity got us carmelo, money got JR and money sure as hell got us tyson chandler.. a 3 year deal and money got us kidd, a ridiculous trade got us camby....

Papabear Says

TKF why in the hell are you a Knicks Fan??? Or are you? You hate the team players you mentioned you hate the owner. Why don't you just go be a Denver fan? Jump the ship. I read some of your posts and its a hate thing with you. You really don't like the Knicks so just admit it. You are not a New York Knicks Fan. You hate the Knicks. ADMIT IT !!

why are you a knicks fan? or are you? start with the owner on down.. you defend this team at all cost.... you like herb williams, dolan? all the trades? salary position.... future outlook? break it down for me...

lots of battered-wife syndromers is how you break it down. ironic that dolan runs things and yet he is so obviously a milquetoast, but when you have money it can insulate you from personal defects. dolan is not interested in winning he is interested in putting asses in seats regardless of the actual quality of the team. he also loves stars. and he surrounds himself with yes-men. dolan always finds a way to alienate or force away good people.

the fish rots from the head down.

exactly..., it does... i dislike dolan as much as I do the maloofs.. the NBA just found a way to get those clowns out of town. now time to work on this fool here at msg...

Ironically ticket sales are down 9% at the Garden in a year which the team is supposedly built to win now? Go Figure

fewer seats this year until the renovations are finished

Dude you're reaching here bro.....

Here's Wiki's info for Basketball

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison_Square_Garden 19,033

Knicks vs Bulls second game of season(No Derrick Rose)
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278103 19,033

Knicks vs Bulls yesterday(No Derrick Rose Melo coming off suspension
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278254 19,033

Knicks vs Bulls Feb 2 last year(Derrick Rose played)
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320202018 19,763

Now we know attendance during games is fudged a little but ticket sales down 9% has very little to do with renovation, it has more to do with average ticket price which the Knicks recently hiked up the average price of admission to alarming levels.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7529476/nba-average-ticket-price-increases-first-time-three-years

To a somewhat smaller degree but it will affect overall percentages factor Brooklyn Nets moving to town. 9% of an arena at near 20,000 capacity would be about 1800 seats missing at an average of $117.50/seat.... do the math, do you think in your right Dolan would take those losses. Uhhhh No!

Fact:

The real MSG capacity is 19,763, though most of us round up because it sounds cooler.

With the second stage of the Garden transformation nearly complete, the Garden capacity will fall about 1,000 lower than the usual 19,763 sell-out crowd, according to team officials.

Link for your reading: http://www.postingandtoasting.com/2012/10/18/3521094/madison-square-gardens-capacity-will-shrink-a-bit-this-season

Having 730 less seats creates a 3.5% drop in potential ticket sales but sales are down 9%. Your link provided was more proof it's not totally related to renovation is has a factor but there are others.

Where are you getting 9%

Atlanta Hawks: 4% Increase
Boston Celtics: 7% Decrease
Brooklyn Nets: 105% Increase
Charlotte Bobcats: 41% Increase
Chicago Bulls: 27% Decrease
Cleveland Cavaliers: 59% Increase
Dallas Mavericks: 7% Decrease
Denver Nuggets: 1% Decrease
Detroit Pistons: 17% Decrease
Golden State Warriors: 8% Increase
Houston Rockets: 4% Decrease
Indiana Pacers: 25% Decrease
Los Angeles Clippers: 16% Increase
Los Angeles Lakers: 21% Increase
Memphis Grizzlies: 1% Increase
Miami Heat: 6% Increase
Milwaukee Bucks: 22% Decrease
Minnesota Timberwolves: 1% Increase
New Orleans Hornets: 99% Increase
New York Knicks: 9% Decrease
Oklanhoma City Thunder: 1% Increase
Orlando Magic: 4% Decrease
Philadelphia 76ers: 7% Decrease
Phoenix Suns: 7% Decrease
Portland Trail Blazers: 13% Increase
Sacramento Kings: 7% Decrease
San Antonio Spurs: 9% Decrease
Toronto Raptors: 12% Decrease
Utah Jazz: 7% Decrease
Washington Wizards: 4% Increase

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/225545/Nets_Bulls_Have_NBAs_Largest_Increase/Decrease_In_Secondary_Ticket_Prices_From_Last_Season

I'd also wager the sales are based on capacity ratio to sales. Like when we had 19,763 capacity last year what were the sales.....Now that we have 19,033 capacity what are the sales. I don't believe because we have less capacity that's how the sales % is being calculated from the previous year.

This article states that this data is based no TICKET PRICES not sales. Also it says the secondary market, which are sites like stub hub.

3G4G wrote:

Anji wrote:Subterfuge strikes again...............

I've been more right than wrong but it happens to the best of us.

lol 9% drop could help get more fans in the door. We're in the Top 5....98% clip in sales.

Which proves my suspicion of you from jump. Seems like your main objective on this board is not as a fan of the Knicks, but as an "I told you so," poster who wants to be proven right and to own other posters...