nixluva wrote:IF ever there was a season for this team to get off to a hot start this is it.

Not really. With only six (6) players left from last years roster, the Knicks will need two months to get acquainted under game conditions.

nixluva wrote:

misterearl wrote:Excellent Question

Q. newYorknewYork - How does that makes sense for Melo to play off the ball as a catch and shoot/slasher when his PGs are getting eat'n alive?

Especially after D'Antoni installed Carmelo as a "point forward" which only increased the amount of time Carmelo had the ball in his hands.

More responsibility, and physical wear, than any other player.

I guarantee that if Melo of RIGHT NOW was put into the same situation as the start of last year he'd have been highly successful. Melo wasn't in the best shape last year until the end of the year. Perhaps Melo will have finally learned the lesson for the rest of his career he needs to stay active all off season. Now last off season he was coming off surgery so i'm not blaming him for that, but from now on he needs to stay in shape all year and not let his conditioning fall off. That's really going to be huge.

This year Melo has a much better situation to allow him and the team to be more successful. He'll have high quality PG's to start the year. Everyone should be coming into this year in top shape. STAT, Melo, Felton and Tyson should all be in GREAT shape to start the year. IF ever there was a season for this team to get off to a hot start this is it.

Melo was in shape when the season started and the groin injury hampered his conditioning. His trainer addressed this last week.

I agree with the hot start. We have a veteran heavy team, many of which have played with eachother. There are no excuses this year. It's time to deliver.

nixluva wrote:RonRon this is why many wanted Melo to accept scoring more within the offense meaning more catch and shoot, cuts to the basket, Curl plays and PnR. When he scores like that it's in the flow of the offense and everyone is involved and not standing around watching him. There's nothing wrong with ISO when you've run the set and nothing is there, but often Melo stalls the offense just to go ISO and that was a problem in the past. NOW it may not be as much of a problem given the way Woody is looking to play.

Woody and Glen have shifted more to what I think is a team that will be more comfortable with going ISO. Felton will be more of a PnR PG with STAT and Tyson and when Kidd or Priggy is in there Melo will be able to run more of an ISO game with Melo like he did with Dirk.

Problem is Melo does not have the length/size and unique skill set of Dirk to cause a mismatch, especially playing SF.
Dirk is a legit 7 footer, with great range, great mobility, decent post up game, has great handle/quick feet for person his size.
It creates a lot of mismatches with his unique skill set.

Bonn1997 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

RonRon wrote:

nixluva wrote:You guys just NEVER seem to understand nuance. I'm not saying that Melo INTENTIONALLY missed shots. Don't be silly. What i'm saying is that he stunk ALL YEAR before he finally got it going at the end of the season because he had the wrong mental approach to what he was being asked to do. Melo talks a good game to the press, but his actions show a different story. He knows what to say so that he seems like he's really into a given situation and giving it his all, but he gives it away with his actions and eventually his real attitude slips out in comments after things don't work out.

Basically Melo is a phony IMO. He was shooting poorly before he got injured and after he came back. Dude stunk for much of the year. As for his numbers being great playing with pass 1st PG's, last year 71% of his shots were jumpers and only 37% of those were assisted, so that means that most of his shots were coming off ISO plays. When he finally had a PG that could set him up for easy scores his numbers didn't improve and in fact the team went 2-8 and the coach quit. Melo didn't start hitting for his extremely high %'s last year until March 28th that he started to consistently shoot for a high % and that continued thru April. Those FG%'s seem unlikely to be sustained given the type of shots he takes. He's never been able to shoot for that high a % for an entire season and that's understandable given the kind of attention he gets from defenses. The guy lives off contested jumpers. If he was a catch and shoot guy then I could see a PG really making a difference for him, but he's not.

agreed, Melo doesn't want to adjust to the teams strengths, he wants the team to adjust to his ability to score the basketball.
But his Iso heavey at SF, doesn't allow him to post up with good position.
Instead, it is consist of mainly jab, jab, shoot, or pull up on CONTESTED jump shots, 1/6 times he will take it to the hoop, and will miss 50% of those layups because of the help defense.
When he makes them, he looks great, but when he misses, the position allows to defense to initiate a fast break.
Players cannot cut because they fear they are taking away Melo's ability to take it all the way to the hoop.
This is why Amare/Tyson does not do well with Melo, especially with Fields inability to spread the floor.
The team cannot find success with Melo doing this, but he insist on playing this way because Melo feels it is in the best of HIS interest.
Who was Amare talking about in the first half the season with comments like, "We have to play within the system, it works, we just have to buy in to it"?

This is why I am pushing for Melo to play more PF, because the mismatch allows Melo to be able to penetrate or post up more, depending on how teams adjust to him.
When he plays SF, it will result in contest jumpers for majority of the plays because Amare/Tyson do not draw their defenders and space the floor for Melo to drive.

This worked in Denver with Martin/Nene because they both had advantages with their mid range shot, their mobility, and their ability to post up their man, but Tyson/Amare are not the same players as Martin/Nene.

I am rooting for Melo and the Knicks to succeed, because in the end, I want the best chances for Knicks to win a ring, but we have to adjust.
Our starting lineup/finishing lineup if it is still the same, and Amare/Tyson does not improve their spacing/ability to post up, we will not be as good as many of the fans here think.
It sounds good on paper but will not work for majority of the better playoff caliber teams.

+1 good post

+1 indeed. Melo's rebounding is not great for a PF but he does everything else better at that position.

Thanks, I have been saying this even before Linsanity.
I was also pushing for Dantoni to play Lin before Linsanity began, and I was extremely frustrated with Dantoni's stubborn ways.

Do I think I know better than the coach? Not exactly.
But I do think I watch enough NBA games and know the Knicks/players well enough, to make adjustments that can favor the team.

I explain why Melo playing the 4 would benefit the team, create mismatch for him, and players can playing off each other and off Melo much better.
With the starting lineup of

Melo
Amare
Tyson Chandler

the defense will ALWAYS dare all 3 players to shoot, while strong defensive teams can rotate back easily.

nixluva wrote:As i've said many times Melo was avg'ing 36 mpg and he wasn't playing thru the groin issue the entire time he was shooting a horrid 39%. The dude simply sucked. While Melo did have some kind of physical issues, I don't believe they were the reason he was so awful. I don't believe Melo had the right kind of training in the off season in terms of actual BB cuz he just didn't have any part of his game working. That is hard to refute based on how bad Melo was for much of the year. When Melo struggled he probably blamed that on his new role, but that was bogus. He just had a bad start to the year. If he was hot then there wouldn't be any excuse about nagging injuries or MDA having him play Point Forward. That's what bothers me about Melo. He should just man up and say I stunk and it's all on me. Don't blame other factors or make excuses.

There literally should be no excuses this year barring, God forbid, any serious injury. He'll come into camp in great shape and in regular season rhythm.

When vs the tough TEAM defense of Miami, with a lock down defender in Lebron *with Battier/Lewis*, allowing Lebron to concentrate on offense.
I don't think Melo can look to be scoring majority of the points, it would just be right in to The Heat's defense.
We need to spread the floor with penetration, movement off the ball, and share the ball unselfishly, to catch the person cheating, Heat is very quick and recovers very well.

We need to maybe put Amare at Center and have him post up/give foul troubles to Bosh, he is very important to The Heat on both ends.

newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:All this is fine and dandy, but the key ingredient to that working consistently is a PG killing guys off the PNR which wasn't happening with Douglas and Bibby and wasn't happening post linsanity which is when Melo finally got to play with Lin who was being trapped and forced to his left until he got injured or Baron Davis who was a shell of his former self.

Turning Melo into a role player (which is what wings are in MDA's system. There is a reason why Joe Johnson & Q Richardson were traded after a 62 wins season for role players and draft picks they later traded away. Because there overal offensive skills and expected/current contract wasn't warrented with the way MDA uses wings) doesn't equate to more wins with the roster we had. Which is why Woodson went 18-6 when he looked to feature defense and Melo more. Because that was the strength of the roster.

How does that makes sense for Melo to play off the ball as a catch and shoot/slasher when his PGs are getting eat'n alive.

Melo stunk not because we didn't have a PnR PG or a pass 1st PG. Melo didn't stink cuz we asked him to do more catch and shoot or to come off curls and make cuts. If you're taking 21 shots and only shooting 39% that's a problem!!! If You're taking the most shots and getting the most touches then you need to shoot a respectable %. He shot great for about a month!!!

The point is that if Melo had played better for most of the year the team would've done much better. Melo was never marginalized like some scrub he was the one passing up shots when his confidence and attitude was in the gutter. Like I said to start the year Melo was taking 21 shots a game and only shot less as it was clear he wasn't hitting anything. Again this wasn't really about PG's or Coaching philosophies. It was Melo stinking it up pure and simple. Since he's primarily a jumpshot shooting ISO player his game isn't effected by PG play to the same degree as most of the other players on the team.

Melo did shoot poorly, and I was thinking to myself that I expect my star player to be able to beat his guy off the dribble way more then Melo was doing last yr. The whole team shot poorly as well, Amare used to be money on those 15 to 18 footers. Jr Smith, Fields, Douglas, Bibby were all money on the 3 ball last season and yet couldn't hit shots consistently if there life depended on it and there are millions of times when Melo kicked out from a double team giving them an open looks only for them the clank the shot. If they hit those shots making teams pay for doubling Melo then we would have been on to something.

If Melo shot better or played better then he did yes the team would have done better. If Amare played better then he did and decided to rebound the ball, hit his open jumpers the team would have done better, if Jr Smith, Fields, Douglas, Bibby shot close to what they shot last season the team would have done better. If MDA made some better in game adjustments then the team would have done better.

But at the end of the day even if all that isn't happening Melo was still the best option BY FAR. Melo is the most talented player on the roster and is more cappable of making it work then anyone on the roster.

The Man was given the KEYS TO THE TEAM!!! He actually had a coach say, i'm puttin the ball in your hands to lead this team to victory. When a coach lets a player like Melo play Point Forward then he's saying take over. Melo was given the Lebron treatment and he spit the bit!!! Dude actually blamed his problems on having the ball too much! You mean like Lebron does every night? That wasn't a good look for Melo.

We could survive a bad year from STAT or TD or anyone else, but a bad year from our best player??? Imagine D Rose had a year as bad as Melo? Teams depend on their best player to be... well the BEST. At the end of the day no one wants to hear about JR or Fields if Melo himself isn't playing great. If Melo was ballin and everyone else failed then you can have a real conversation about what changes need to be made. But when Melo was stinking up the joint what do you do then as a team? You sold the farm for him. Almost everyone else is expendable.

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:All this is fine and dandy, but the key ingredient to that working consistently is a PG killing guys off the PNR which wasn't happening with Douglas and Bibby and wasn't happening post linsanity which is when Melo finally got to play with Lin who was being trapped and forced to his left until he got injured or Baron Davis who was a shell of his former self.

Turning Melo into a role player (which is what wings are in MDA's system. There is a reason why Joe Johnson & Q Richardson were traded after a 62 wins season for role players and draft picks they later traded away. Because there overal offensive skills and expected/current contract wasn't warrented with the way MDA uses wings) doesn't equate to more wins with the roster we had. Which is why Woodson went 18-6 when he looked to feature defense and Melo more. Because that was the strength of the roster.

How does that makes sense for Melo to play off the ball as a catch and shoot/slasher when his PGs are getting eat'n alive.

Melo stunk not because we didn't have a PnR PG or a pass 1st PG. Melo didn't stink cuz we asked him to do more catch and shoot or to come off curls and make cuts. If you're taking 21 shots and only shooting 39% that's a problem!!! If You're taking the most shots and getting the most touches then you need to shoot a respectable %. He shot great for about a month!!!

The point is that if Melo had played better for most of the year the team would've done much better. Melo was never marginalized like some scrub he was the one passing up shots when his confidence and attitude was in the gutter. Like I said to start the year Melo was taking 21 shots a game and only shot less as it was clear he wasn't hitting anything. Again this wasn't really about PG's or Coaching philosophies. It was Melo stinking it up pure and simple. Since he's primarily a jumpshot shooting ISO player his game isn't effected by PG play to the same degree as most of the other players on the team.

Melo did shoot poorly, and I was thinking to myself that I expect my star player to be able to beat his guy off the dribble way more then Melo was doing last yr. The whole team shot poorly as well, Amare used to be money on those 15 to 18 footers. Jr Smith, Fields, Douglas, Bibby were all money on the 3 ball last season and yet couldn't hit shots consistently if there life depended on it and there are millions of times when Melo kicked out from a double team giving them an open looks only for them the clank the shot. If they hit those shots making teams pay for doubling Melo then we would have been on to something.

If Melo shot better or played better then he did yes the team would have done better. If Amare played better then he did and decided to rebound the ball, hit his open jumpers the team would have done better, if Jr Smith, Fields, Douglas, Bibby shot close to what they shot last season the team would have done better. If MDA made some better in game adjustments then the team would have done better.

But at the end of the day even if all that isn't happening Melo was still the best option BY FAR. Melo is the most talented player on the roster and is more cappable of making it work then anyone on the roster.

This is true, but that is exactly the reason he gets the lions share of the blame for not having a good season save for about a month of excellent BB. Teams can't win without a good YEAR from their best player. The whole point of mortgaging so much of our future for Melo was because he was supposed to be the kind of superstar that lifts a flawed team. Last year he didn't do that and that's on him.

The Man was given the KEYS TO THE TEAM!!! He actually had a coach say, i'm puttin the ball in your hands to lead this team to victory. When a coach lets a player like Melo play Point Forward then he's saying take over. Melo was given the Lebron treatment and he spit the bit!!! Dude actually blamed his problems on having the ball too much! You mean like Lebron does every night? That wasn't a good look for Melo.

We could survive a bad year from STAT or TD or anyone else, but a bad year from our best player??? Imagine D Rose had a year as bad as Melo? Teams depend on their best player to be... well the BEST. At the end of the day no one wants to hear about JR or Fields if Melo himself isn't playing great. If Melo was ballin and everyone else failed then you can have a real conversation about what changes need to be made. But when Melo was stinking up the joint what do you do then as a team? You sold the farm for him. Almost everyone else is expendable.

MDA asked Melo to be Pippen/Lebron. Melo is not a point forward. Never has been never will be. Doesn't make him a flawed player either. How many SF's in the history of the NBA have/had the ability to play point forward. Melo is his entire career has average around 3 assts per game so we'll just put the ball in his hands and have him play PG? Great idea! Melo's mentality is and always will be to score. He'll hit open players and make good passes but can't you see that playing PG would be a problem for a scorer who never played that position before? Can't you see how that woudl effect his game?

Melo is the type of player who can carry a flawed team. What Melo do in late February/March without a PG and without our second best player?

CashMoney wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:All this is fine and dandy, but the key ingredient to that working consistently is a PG killing guys off the PNR which wasn't happening with Douglas and Bibby and wasn't happening post linsanity which is when Melo finally got to play with Lin who was being trapped and forced to his left until he got injured or Baron Davis who was a shell of his former self.

Turning Melo into a role player (which is what wings are in MDA's system. There is a reason why Joe Johnson & Q Richardson were traded after a 62 wins season for role players and draft picks they later traded away. Because there overal offensive skills and expected/current contract wasn't warrented with the way MDA uses wings) doesn't equate to more wins with the roster we had. Which is why Woodson went 18-6 when he looked to feature defense and Melo more. Because that was the strength of the roster.

How does that makes sense for Melo to play off the ball as a catch and shoot/slasher when his PGs are getting eat'n alive.

Melo stunk not because we didn't have a PnR PG or a pass 1st PG. Melo didn't stink cuz we asked him to do more catch and shoot or to come off curls and make cuts. If you're taking 21 shots and only shooting 39% that's a problem!!! If You're taking the most shots and getting the most touches then you need to shoot a respectable %. He shot great for about a month!!!

The point is that if Melo had played better for most of the year the team would've done much better. Melo was never marginalized like some scrub he was the one passing up shots when his confidence and attitude was in the gutter. Like I said to start the year Melo was taking 21 shots a game and only shot less as it was clear he wasn't hitting anything. Again this wasn't really about PG's or Coaching philosophies. It was Melo stinking it up pure and simple. Since he's primarily a jumpshot shooting ISO player his game isn't effected by PG play to the same degree as most of the other players on the team.

Melo did shoot poorly, and I was thinking to myself that I expect my star player to be able to beat his guy off the dribble way more then Melo was doing last yr. The whole team shot poorly as well, Amare used to be money on those 15 to 18 footers. Jr Smith, Fields, Douglas, Bibby were all money on the 3 ball last season and yet couldn't hit shots consistently if there life depended on it and there are millions of times when Melo kicked out from a double team giving them an open looks only for them the clank the shot. If they hit those shots making teams pay for doubling Melo then we would have been on to something.

If Melo shot better or played better then he did yes the team would have done better. If Amare played better then he did and decided to rebound the ball, hit his open jumpers the team would have done better, if Jr Smith, Fields, Douglas, Bibby shot close to what they shot last season the team would have done better. If MDA made some better in game adjustments then the team would have done better.

But at the end of the day even if all that isn't happening Melo was still the best option BY FAR. Melo is the most talented player on the roster and is more cappable of making it work then anyone on the roster.

This is true, but that is exactly the reason he gets the lions share of the blame for not having a good season save for about a month of excellent BB. Teams can't win without a good YEAR from their best player. The whole point of mortgaging so much of our future for Melo was because he was supposed to be the kind of superstar that lifts a flawed team. Last year he didn't do that and that's on him.

The Man was given the KEYS TO THE TEAM!!! He actually had a coach say, i'm puttin the ball in your hands to lead this team to victory. When a coach lets a player like Melo play Point Forward then he's saying take over. Melo was given the Lebron treatment and he spit the bit!!! Dude actually blamed his problems on having the ball too much! You mean like Lebron does every night? That wasn't a good look for Melo.

We could survive a bad year from STAT or TD or anyone else, but a bad year from our best player??? Imagine D Rose had a year as bad as Melo? Teams depend on their best player to be... well the BEST. At the end of the day no one wants to hear about JR or Fields if Melo himself isn't playing great. If Melo was ballin and everyone else failed then you can have a real conversation about what changes need to be made. But when Melo was stinking up the joint what do you do then as a team? You sold the farm for him. Almost everyone else is expendable.

MDA asked Melo to be Pippen/Lebron. Melo is not a point forward. Never has been never will be. Doesn't make him a flawed player either. How many SF's in the history of the NBA have/had the ability to play point forward. Melo is his entire career has average around 3 assts per game so we'll just put the ball in his hands and have him play PG? Great idea! Melo's mentality is and always will be to score. He'll hit open players and make good passes but can't you see that playing PG would be a problem for a scorer who never played that position before? Can't you see how that woudl effect his game?

Melo is the type of player who can carry a flawed team. What Melo do in late February/March without a PG and without our second best player?

We really didn't have any options, TD, Bibby, and even Iman Shumpert is unable to penetrate in traffic/facilitate, while Melo is by far our best player that could do it.
Also this is the best way, Dantoni can get Melo to learn to utilize his team mates, instead of always trying to go ISO to score.
Instead of ALWAYS trying to score, he has to learn how to use his ability to score to create better looks for his team.

Either the guards have to knock down shots or there has to be a real PG running the team. Can't have no Pg and guards not hitting open shots. Only way that would work is if Melo could run the fast break like Magic and pushed the ball up the court on every play leading to layups and dunks.