nixluva wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Anyoen ever notice that in Chicago and San Antonio and LA(organizations with consistent titles) everytime they lost a player to free agency, they tended to replace that guy with someone that was a carbon copy to that player. Chicago had Ron Harper and Bj Armstrong and Paxson and Steve Kerr and Craig Hodges. Notice any themes. Good shooters that did not need the ball in their hands? Lots of superstar PG's would have loved to play with Michael. Why didn't the Chicago front office trade or sign one???? Why didn't they slam Tim Hardaway or Isiah Thomas down Michael Jordan's throat and then tell Phil Jackson to "make it work".

Why did the Lakers sign Phil Jackson and then proceed to follow the exact same model? Derek Fisher, Ron Harper, Lindsey Hunter. Pretty similar profile. Why? because that's what Phil wanted. front office had no desire to gut his team, bring in who they wanted, even if they couldn't play in teh triangle and then demand that he "make it work". If they had, he would have been a loser to.

Excellent points!!! You've been consistently talking about this for years!!! The examples above are rock solid examples of the kind of front office and coach relationship that works.

I don't know if the Knicks will ever do this, but right now they could have a good formula with Woody and this roster, we'll know soon enough, but if it does work, this would be the perfect time to finally act like winning franchises act and have unison with management and the coach.

HOw are Derek Fisher, Ron Harper & Lindsey Hunter similar players? Derek Fisher was a PG with a terrible handle, subpar athletic ability and had average skills in everything besides a decent jumper. Ron Harper was a 6'7 SG who in Cleveland was a slasher, great finisher and good defender. Lindsey Hunter was a tremendous on ball defender, with okay handle and pretty athletic.

Bippity10 wrote:I back Woodson like I back D'Antoni. I like what is happening and hope it continues. But I know history and I don't forget it. Many of you turned on Patrick. Many of you turned on Amare. Everyone turned on D'antoni. It's just a matter of time before all you fools turn on Woodson. Guaranteed.

I'm not waiting. I've already turned on him. Fire Woodson now!

nixluva wrote:My problem with the argument that Melo needed a coach to push him and hold him accountable, is that he made such an instantaneous improvement in his effort level and attitude before Woodson really had a chance to coach him up in any way. Melo's shift in attitude was not precipitated by many sessions with Woody in the Tool shed. He just showed up for the game that evening and gave intense effort. It was his own admission that explains that he just suddenly decided he needed a new found effort level.

“I think in the last three games, my focus was to have an energy that I haven’t had so far this season, especially on the defensive end,” he said. “Everybody on this team knows, everybody in the world knows I can score the basketball. It’s not that important to me.”

I'm certainly glad that Melo finally did do this. The only problem is how he didn't find that same mental approach all year despite the fact that the team was more focused on D from the start and had been a top 10 defense all year. Also why when he came back and EVERYONE else on the team was already playing hard on D in the win streak before his return. If he had acted as a leader and said he wants to play harder and wanted everyone else to do the same they would've followed his example and likely continued to win games.

This is not to absolve MDA of his coaching responsibility. Surely he could have done more to push Melo and STAT, but for players that all year talked about how offense wasn't a concern as long as they defended, they really fell flat on those words and Melo eventually admitted he wasn't giving his all and all it seemed to take was him deciding "my focus was to have an energy that I haven’t had so far this season, especially on the defensive end,”. That seemed fairly simple.

Bippity10 wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Anyoen ever notice that in Chicago and San Antonio and LA(organizations with consistent titles) everytime they lost a player to free agency, they tended to replace that guy with someone that was a carbon copy to that player. Chicago had Ron Harper and Bj Armstrong and Paxson and Steve Kerr and Craig Hodges. Notice any themes. Good shooters that did not need the ball in their hands? Lots of superstar PG's would have loved to play with Michael. Why didn't the Chicago front office trade or sign one???? Why didn't they slam Tim Hardaway or Isiah Thomas down Michael Jordan's throat and then tell Phil Jackson to "make it work".

Why did the Lakers sign Phil Jackson and then proceed to follow the exact same model? Derek Fisher, Ron Harper, Lindsey Hunter. Pretty similar profile. Why? because that's what Phil wanted. front office had no desire to gut his team, bring in who they wanted, even if they couldn't play in teh triangle and then demand that he "make it work". If they had, he would have been a loser to.

Excellent points!!! You've been consistently talking about this for years!!! The examples above are rock solid examples of the kind of front office and coach relationship that works.

I don't know if the Knicks will ever do this, but right now they could have a good formula with Woody and this roster, we'll know soon enough, but if it does work, this would be the perfect time to finally act like winning franchises act and have unison with management and the coach.

HOw are Derek Fisher, Ron Harper & Lindsey Hunter similar players? Derek Fisher was a PG with a terrible handle, subpar athletic ability and had average skills in everything besides a decent jumper. Ron Harper was a 6'7 SG who in Cleveland was a slasher, great finisher and good defender. Lindsey Hunter was a tremendous on ball defender, with okay handle and pretty athletic.

Phil Jackson doesn't care if his PGA have good handles or are or are not athletic. Not sure why you bring that into the conversation. A prerequisite for a pj point guard is that they don't need, want or demand the ball. When Kobe and Michael were doing ther thing, they sat quietly by the three point line, waited for a pass and drained the open three. The only one that didn't fit the dead eye soother profile was Harper but even he grew into a reliable shooter. These front offices never once tried to jam some hot shot, ball hogging, shoot first pg down pjs throat because it never would have worked. Ther were some good pgs available but these teams went triangle system first and never once strayed. That's why they won.

By the way, I forgot about Brian Shaw. Yet another one.

When you hire a coach you find players that fit his system. You don't force him to change. We didn't force Riley to change his style by ramming players down his throat. He came here knowing his roster and he developed his own style. Then once he developed his defensive style not one time did we gut the roster and bring in a bunch of lazy defenders. We continued to build a team that fit the coaches style. It was the last time we managed the team this way. Since jvg took over its been one gm/coach competition after another. Hopefully it stops with Woodson

It was brought up because prior to coming to the Bulls neither Harper or Lindsey Hunter fit this description you are talking about. They were made into that by Phil Jackson. Did you watch Harper play in his CAVS days. Harper wanted and needed the rock

Here are some excerpts from Wikipedia...
In 1994, he signed a lucrative free agent deal with the Bulls, who were rebuilding following the initial retirement of Michael Jordan. After his first tumultuous season in Chicago, he reinvented himself as a defender and jump shooter. With the return of Jordan in late 1995, Harper remained a key component of the Bulls' perimeter defense and a scoring option on offense. He became a fan favorite in Chicago. Although he suffered an injury late in the Bulls' record-setting 72-win season in 1996, he returned to the starting lineup during the 1996 NBA Finals.

It's just as silly to say that Woodson has come here and destroyed the entire team's health in no time with his non-athletic brand of backstreet bully-ball.

But I guess if guys really wanna bash MDA, they sure are gonna.

ChuckBuck wrote:

MozelGovCocktail wrote:This thread still exists?

It's just as silly to say that Woodson has come here and destroyed the entire team's health in no time with his non-athletic brand of backstreet bully-ball.

But I guess if guys really wanna bash MDA, they sure are gonna.

This thread exists because the Knicks would not be able to win these games undermanned under D'Antoni. FACT!

How about win even though they shoot like sh1t?

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

MozelGovCocktail wrote:This thread still exists?

It's just as silly to say that Woodson has come here and destroyed the entire team's health in no time with his non-athletic brand of backstreet bully-ball.

But I guess if guys really wanna bash MDA, they sure are gonna.

This thread exists because the Knicks would not be able to win these games undermanned under D'Antoni. FACT!

How about win even though they shoot like sh1t?

One last time. MDA did have the team playing well and not so much on offense, during Linsanity the team actually won with their defense and they had fewer players then too. No STAT, Melo, Baron, JR or Jorts. At least be honest about what happened. Maybe if STAT and Melo played hard as men with pride should have, then they could've continued winning. There was never a time this year that the team wasn't focused on D, except for the 6 game losing streak just before MDA resigned. It was the right thing to do, cuz MDA was not going to get what he needed from his best player. You can't win like that. Both men closed their minds to each other at that point. MDA and Melo just would never work with both guys taking a hard stance. However, let's not lie about how the team defended. Don't make me pull out the stats to prove it!

Sat 2/4	vs NJ     W 99-92
Mon 2/6 vs UTAH   W 99-88
Wed 2/8	@ WSH     W 107-93
Fri 2/10 vs LA    W 92-85
Sat 2/11 @ MIN    W 100-98	
Tue 2/14 @ TOR    W 90-87	
Wed 2/15 vs SAC   W 100-85
Fri 2/17 vs NO    L 85-89	
Sun 2/19 vs DAL   W 104-97
Mon 2/20 vs NJ    L 92-100	
Wed 2/22 vs ATL   W 99-82	
Thu 2/23 @ MIA    L 88-102	
Wed 2/29 vs CLE   W 120-103
Sun 3/4	@ BOS     L 111-115	
Tue 3/6	@ DAL     L 85-95	
Wed 3/7	@ SA      L 105-118	
Fri 3/9	 @MIL     L 114-119
Sun 3/11 vs PHI   L 94-106	
Mon 3/12 @ CHI    L 99-104

The team was playing good D under MDA and then it went away like magic. POOF!!! It was a bad combination of factors, STAT not really being himself and Melo and MDA fighting in a Passive aggressive way. Then trying to mix in other guys and losing Jared and Tyson. A lot went down, but the real issue that pushed MDA over the edge was the fact that MDA knew he would never have Melo in his corner and get his full effort. This was effecting the entire team. Everything that's happened since confirms what an impact that made.

Hey Nixluva, what about the coaching job D'Antoni did before February 4th?

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

MozelGovCocktail wrote:This thread still exists?

It's just as silly to say that Woodson has come here and destroyed the entire team's health in no time with his non-athletic brand of backstreet bully-ball.

But I guess if guys really wanna bash MDA, they sure are gonna.

This thread exists because the Knicks would not be able to win these games undermanned under D'Antoni. FACT!

How about win even though they shoot like sh1t?

One last time. MDA did have the team playing well and not so much on offense, during Linsanity the team actually won with their defense and they had fewer players then too. No STAT, Melo, Baron, JR or Jorts. At least be honest about what happened. Maybe if STAT and Melo played hard as men with pride should have, then they could've continued winning. There was never a time this year that the team wasn't focused on D, except for the 6 game losing streak just before MDA resigned. It was the right thing to do, cuz MDA was not going to get what he needed from his best player. You can't win like that. Both men closed their minds to each other at that point. MDA and Melo just would never work with both guys taking a hard stance. However, let's not lie about how the team defended. Don't make me pull out the stats to prove it!

Sat 2/4	vs NJ     W 99-92
Mon 2/6 vs UTAH   W 99-88
Wed 2/8	@ WSH     W 107-93
Fri 2/10 vs LA    W 92-85
Sat 2/11 @ MIN    W 100-98	
Tue 2/14 @ TOR    W 90-87	
Wed 2/15 vs SAC   W 100-85
Fri 2/17 vs NO    L 85-89	
Sun 2/19 vs DAL   W 104-97
Mon 2/20 vs NJ    L 92-100	
Wed 2/22 vs ATL   W 99-82	
Thu 2/23 @ MIA    L 88-102	
Wed 2/29 vs CLE   W 120-103
Sun 3/4	@ BOS     L 111-115	
Tue 3/6	@ DAL     L 85-95	
Wed 3/7	@ SA      L 105-118	
Fri 3/9	 @MIL     L 114-119
Sun 3/11 vs PHI   L 94-106	
Mon 3/12 @ CHI    L 99-104

The team was playing good D under MDA and then it went away like magic. POOF!!! It was a bad combination of factors, STAT not really being himself and Melo and MDA fighting in a Passive aggressive way. Then trying to mix in other guys and losing Jared and Tyson. A lot went down, but the real issue that pushed MDA over the edge was the fact that MDA knew he would never have Melo in his corner and get his full effort. This was effecting the entire team. Everything that's happened since confirms what an impact that made.

I don't think it is productive to keep focusing in on an 8 game run during a 4 year tenure. This year D'Antoni coached the Knicks for 42 games. 15 times teams scored over 100 points. The d was better but the guys that played for D'Antoni suddenly are talking about and playing great defense with their new coach. They are 9-2 and have given up 100 points twice.

Proof is in the pudding, held opponents to 90 points or less 8 times out of the 11 games under Woodson (9 wins). Put that in your pipe and smoke it D'Antoni lovers!

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

MozelGovCocktail wrote:This thread still exists?

It's just as silly to say that Woodson has come here and destroyed the entire team's health in no time with his non-athletic brand of backstreet bully-ball.

But I guess if guys really wanna bash MDA, they sure are gonna.

This thread exists because the Knicks would not be able to win these games undermanned under D'Antoni. FACT!

How about win even though they shoot like sh1t?

One last time. MDA did have the team playing well and not so much on offense, during Linsanity the team actually won with their defense and they had fewer players then too. No STAT, Melo, Baron, JR or Jorts. At least be honest about what happened. Maybe if STAT and Melo played hard as men with pride should have, then they could've continued winning. There was never a time this year that the team wasn't focused on D, except for the 6 game losing streak just before MDA resigned. It was the right thing to do, cuz MDA was not going to get what he needed from his best player. You can't win like that. Both men closed their minds to each other at that point. MDA and Melo just would never work with both guys taking a hard stance. However, let's not lie about how the team defended. Don't make me pull out the stats to prove it!

Sat 2/4	vs NJ     W 99-92
Mon 2/6 vs UTAH   W 99-88
Wed 2/8	@ WSH     W 107-93
Fri 2/10 vs LA    W 92-85
Sat 2/11 @ MIN    W 100-98	
Tue 2/14 @ TOR    W 90-87	
Wed 2/15 vs SAC   W 100-85
Fri 2/17 vs NO    L 85-89	
Sun 2/19 vs DAL   W 104-97
Mon 2/20 vs NJ    L 92-100	
Wed 2/22 vs ATL   W 99-82	
Thu 2/23 @ MIA    L 88-102	
Wed 2/29 vs CLE   W 120-103
Sun 3/4	@ BOS     L 111-115	
Tue 3/6	@ DAL     L 85-95	
Wed 3/7	@ SA      L 105-118	
Fri 3/9	 @MIL     L 114-119
Sun 3/11 vs PHI   L 94-106	
Mon 3/12 @ CHI    L 99-104

The team was playing good D under MDA and then it went away like magic. POOF!!! It was a bad combination of factors, STAT not really being himself and Melo and MDA fighting in a Passive aggressive way. Then trying to mix in other guys and losing Jared and Tyson. A lot went down, but the real issue that pushed MDA over the edge was the fact that MDA knew he would never have Melo in his corner and get his full effort. This was effecting the entire team. Everything that's happened since confirms what an impact that made.

I don't think it is productive to keep focusing in on an 8 game run during a 4 year tenure. This year D'Antoni coached the Knicks for 42 games. 15 times teams scored over 100 points. The d was better but the guys that played for D'Antoni suddenly are talking about and playing great defense with their new coach. They are 9-2 and have given up 100 points twice.

Proof is in the pudding, held opponents to 90 points or less 8 times out of the 11 games under Woodson (9 wins). Put that in your pipe and smoke it D'Antoni lovers!

This is nothing against Woody who is doing a great job. This is merely about keeping things honest. The team was playing very good D before the losing streak and it wasn't a full roster. The team was on it's way to becoming a very good defensive team and all of that progress was thrown off track. Not to mention the fact that they might have found their defensive groove sooner had STAT and Melo actually played harder on D all year. The attention to improved defense was a mantra all summer and during the season. There was never a time when they weren't stressing defense, which is why the team was a top 10 defense all year. They made another jump once Melo decided to buy into the defense as well. Now Melo is leading by example and not just words and that's great.

If Melo had been giving this kind of effort all along, that would've made a fertile environment for the entire team and the team oriented play they displayed during Linsanity would've gone on for a lot longer. Contrary to popular belief MDA wasn't averse to Melo scoring and having Post ups. The thing is there just needed to be a balance and they weren't able to find that balance, especially if Melo was only halfheartedly going thru the motions. That's not "buying in"! It's all over now. The team has bigger fish to fry now. Hopefully Woody can push the right buttons and find a way to overcome the injuries.

When the Knicks shoot under 40% (FG):

Under MDA - 2-9 (wins against only NJ and CHA)

Under Woody - 3-1 (wins against Phi, Mil, Cle - SO FAR)

I love that we can now win even when we are not shooting well. The defense is now LOCKED in. Yes, woody was there a whole season and that (and Tyson) IS why the defense was better this year but now with the handcuffs off he is able to implement the defense exactly his way which is great for us fans!!

Yes you can keep posting that Melo (and sometimes you mention STAT) played halfheartedly for MDA ... maybe/whatever ... Stat sure looked GREAT defensively once Woody took over and held his nuts to the fire. Interesting that he actually CAN play defense. Who knew?

MDA did not click with them for whatever reason ... good riddance - let's all be happy now that we are winning! Unfortunately, it happened too late and it does not look like we will get better than the 8th seed.

MozelGovCocktail wrote:It was obvious that Stat was afraid to tangle in the paint because he feared injury.

It's entirely plausible that MDA simply had a professionally intimate understanding of Amare's physical capabilities.

If Woody's "holding his nuts to the fire" is what pushed Stat onto a mattress, then Woody must be held accountable.

hahahaha - this is really really funny!!

Not sure if you were serious or not ... You were not serious right? You were joking? If you were being sarcastic then this is really really funny. If not, then I don't know what to respond to this and it's ... still pretty funny