Silverfuel wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Gotta love it. Same people who are blasting the Knicks for this proposed trade will be the same ones blasting the Knicks if Melo goes to the Nyets.

And they were against signing Amare and letting David Lee walk.

Ohh this is so wrong it's not even funny. Yeah, people wanted to keep Lee, but not for the bigger picture.

You either have selective amnesia or you missed those threads. What bigger picture were they thinking of by giving Lee $80 million? See how Bonn's feels!

And proudly so on my part (except for letting Lee walk). Nothing against Amare either, as I've explained before.

First off, no need for the insults. I am going by what I read. Second off, Bonn wasn't even posting a year ago when we were talking about Lee Vs Stat and Bosh vs Lee (Which I actually said I'd rather have Lee over Bosh at a cheaper price).

And finally, when it was Free Agent time, I'm almost positive that I would say, 85% of us were thrilled that we signed Amar'e and then made the Lee trade. And I know Bonn would have preferred another way and I he stated that, and that's fine and his opinion. It's not right or wrong because so far, we haven't won a championship, so each opinion is every bit as valid.

And for the record, the bigger picture was LeBron. There was no way we'd keep Lee and have LeBron and Amar'e. If both of those guys decided to go to Miami and stay in Phoenix, then I am pretty sure most of the board (Myself included) would have been happy to keep Lee.

I did not insult you. What Bonn said today a lot of others were saying back then. I still don't get what you/others meant by the "bigger picture" because Amare had signed in NY so it was either Amare or Lee. But whatever! Have it your way dude.

IIRC, the main argument against a combo of Lee and Amar'e as a plan B is the defensive pressure. It's a short front court, and Lee does not block shots at all. Would make a pretty good team, but not a championship level team. I was a big fan of Lee, but not for the price tag he got. The most I would've done for Lee is 6 years/$60 million.

Allanfan20 wrote:Yes. If you remember, the holdup on the Lee trade was LeBrons decision. If he said he was going to sign with the Knicks, we would have signed him to even more than that 80.

Just remember, it was a sign and trade, so we had the ability to make the signing first, then trade him.

If I understand the premise here, that the Knicks should have signed Stat and kept Lee, just understand your starting point guard would be Toney Douglas.

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:But there is a corollary to that too: you have to be able to get better AFTER that significantly enough to meet your goals of championship.

Absolutely. But let's just look at the current Knicks. Two starters on a play-off team came from a international free agent signing out of nowhere, and a second round pick, one that just held his own in the starting line-up of the stronger of the rookie/sophomore teams).

Three significant rotation players from the Celtics were 21st (Rondo, arguably there second most valuable player), 27th (Perkins) and a second round pick (Davis).

Another was a MLE signing and a veterans minimum signing (the O'Neals).

Chicago is built on 3 lottery picks (finally success after a decade of futility) and a free agent who was once a 2nd round draft choice.

Two of Orando's main gogs were non-lottery selections (Nelson and Turkoglu). And they're built on a overall first.

The point being, getting a Rose or Howard via the draft is NOT an option to the Knicks at this point... BUT ... getting good players with draft choices, making astute trades, and whatever free agent exceptions exist in the CBA is not off the table.

Knicks can add 'Melo and still get better.

And the NBA is NOT a parity league. 85% of the league is searching for that magic formula of how to get better but always leave room in the equation to get to the championship level.

At a certain point, you have to make your bed. You can't construct your roster on a hedge waiting for that once-in-a-lifetime piece to fall into your lap.

What are we really talking about here?

Keeping Gallinari and Chandler, letting Chandler walk or trying to salvage a draft pick for him so as to not eat into your 2012 cap space, and HOPE Howard or Williams come?

What other meet your championship goals are out there?

I'd frame it differently and also note that it's not so much as I wouldn't want to do a Melo trade but rather do a Melo trade that still affords us forward maneuverability.

For me it's not so black and white as saying keep Gallo and Chandler and hope and pray for Melo in off-season and then something after.

Groundwork: a team of Amare and Melo and extras is not as good as Bosh, Wade, LeBron and extras or even Rose, Noah, Booz and extras (and this is just in the East, Kobe and Lakers will be around for a couple of years and OKC has 2 big parts, extras and all sorts of cap space and flexibility). So with any type of Melo trade, will NY have enough wherewithal to keep the extras and add significantly? And to add players to the Knicks team, you also need to compete against Miami, Chicago, etc through the same UFA pool or through sign and trades.

Let's be realistic about the Moz signing and the Fields draft: Those 2 adds come around about once every 5 years and usually once for a particular team; to suggest that Donnie could just do it again may be a little wishful thinking.

NY has given in to Denver on the Felton/Billups flip. One can argue that they are the same statistical output or that Big shot Billups is better cause of his past play and experience, but the guy IS 34 going on 35 this year and with double the salary. But MOST importantly, in 2 years, when CP3 and Deron come on the market, would either Utah or NO be willing to accept a swap of PG-for-PG? Would they rather have a right-sized contract and 28 year old PG of good character (and other parts to make exchange work) or a 36 year old $14M expiring contact who is prob done? Both of those 2 teams really aren't that competitive in the UFA market, so a Billups-type player (at his age) and expiring contract are worthless. That's the opportunity cost NY is giving up with that swap.

Knicks can add Melo in offseason (perhaps drop Chandler completely but keep Felton/Gallo). NY gets Melo and has good room to make a PG upgrade and match CHI, OKC, MIA and even has a Gallo or Chandler type to come off the bench.

Same with adding in Gallo to the picture today (or even Chandler to a lesser extent if it's a Gallo or Chandler inclusion); we need to project out what he may become 2 years and ask if it is significant enough for a possible swap or fill a necessary role on a Championship team (either of those guys could fill the first player role off the bench).

Knicks can add 'Melo and still get better.

At the cost of what the Knicks are giving up to Denver today, how is this possible in a way that we can compete with Boston or LA next year, or CHI, MIA for the next 5?

Moz, Amare, Melo. That front line is not scaring anyone defensively. And in another year your PG will be gone and you will need to replace that position. Also, the bench has zero significant player.

So, you have to address PG, Bench, Defense at the same rate and with zero capspace and without a 2012 pick. How does a team do that with low lottery picks while also competing for the same players with the MLE as would the other teams listed?

martin wrote:I'd frame it differently and also note that it's not so much as I wouldn't want to do a Melo trade but rather do a Melo trade that still affords us forward maneuverability.

With all due courtesy, what trade you'd "rather" do really isn't the point. There has never been ANY evidence from anyone or anywhere that Denver would eventually cave to essentially swapping Chandler for 'Melo.

That has been wishful rationalization ("better than nothing") from the get-go.

The question is do you do the deal that is now being reported, or let 'Melo go to the Nets or stay in Denver?

Groundwork: a team of Amare and Melo and extras is not as good as Bosh, Wade, LeBron and extras or even Rose, Noah, Booz and extras (and this is just in the East, Kobe and Lakers will be around for a couple of years and OKC has 2 big parts, extras and all sorts of cap space and flexibility). So with any type of Melo trade, will NY have enough wherewithal to keep the extras and add significantly? And to add players to the Knicks team, you also need to compete against Miami, Chicago, etc through the same UFA pool or through sign and trades.

But again, you're assuming the Knicks CAN acquire Melo and still retain "wherewithal".

What if that is NOT an option?

Let's be realistic about the Moz signing and the Fields draft: Those 2 adds come around about once every 5 years and usually once for a particular team; to suggest that Donnie could just do it again may be a little wishful thinking.

Chandler was a 23rd pick. Douglas was a 29th. Lee was a 30th. Turiaf was a 2nd round pick.

The idea that you can get contributing rotation players at the back-end of the draft is NOT that crazy.

NY has given in to Denver on the Felton/Billups flip. One can argue that they are the same statistical output or that Big shot Billups is better cause of his past play and experience, but the guy IS 34 going on 35 this year and with double the salary. But MOST importantly, in 2 years, when CP3 and Deron come on the market, would either Utah or NO be willing to accept a swap of PG-for-PG? Would they rather have a right-sized contract and 28 year old PG of good character (and other parts to make exchange work) or a 36 year old $14M expiring contact who is prob done? Both of those 2 teams really aren't that competitive in the UFA market, so a Billups-type player (at his age) and expiring contract are worthless. That's the opportunity cost NY is giving up with that swap.

Well, let's put this our there for one.

I like Felton, but he hasn't been playing that well for a couple of months now. Now some might be inclined to chalk it up entirely to wear and tear, but if you're serious-minded one has to fairly consider Felton just might be who he is, which is a decent point guard.

And actually, I do believe if given the other talent on their rosters, IF Utah or New Orleans is forced to trade either PG, that they'd be looking to fully rebuild, as opposed to trying to plug Felton into the mix long-term.

What they'd really probably want to do (particularly NO) is attach a bad contract, and Billup's $14.3m expiring actually becomes more useful in that scenario.

New Orleans isn't going to try to go to war with Felton and West, they're gonna wanna attach Okafor.

This is not even mentioning the fact that in at least West's case, playing WITH Anthony is part of the deal of getting him.

Knicks can add Melo in offseason

But what if they can't?

At the cost of what the Knicks are giving up to Denver today, how is this possible in a way that we can compete with Boston or LA next year, or CHI, MIA for the next 5?

I'm not suggesting there is some guaranteed path to a championship. There is NONE, one way or another.

The question is, how long are you going to wait, satisfied with playing your first round playoff series on the road, waiting for the exact series of opportunities to come along.

I'll say it again, 85% percent of team's have been waiting their entire franchise history for that to happen.

I don't see a viable concrete alternative.

I see fans' open-ended, non-specific hope that some opportunity may present itself eventually.

I also think this deal enhances the Knicks chance to get at least Paul, not the other way around.

Hell, I'll even say this.

I don't know if Paul/Melo/Stat and parts would ever overtake Miami, same way the Ewing Knicks could never get past the Jordan Bulls.

But I can't see any scenario anywhere near as likely as that that makes the Knicks better than that.

BlueSeats wrote:Gallo, Felton, Chandler, Curry and a to be acquired 1st rounder to DEN for Melo, Billups & fillers

It's a steep price but I'd still do it.

True, Melo is no LeBron/Kobe/Wade, he's a lower tier, no-D, volume scorer. This compares him to guys like Dr J, Dominique Wilkens, James Worthy, Earl Monroe and Bernard King. You know, HOF scoring machines I'd have killed to pair with Ewing, even if it meant, say, trading Starks and Strickland to do so.

The idea that guys like Galo and Chandler are irreplaceable is folly. Credit to Isiah/Walsh/Whoever, the Knicks have been pretty good at securing nice "complementary" players on the cheap these last few years: Ariza, Lee, Chandler, AR, Mozgod, Fields, etc. I see no reason to expect that potential to fall off the cliff simply by securing Melo. However, None of those guys are the type that leave franchises haunted for a decade by virtue of missing out on them not securing, like when we missed out on drafting Amare, or when Detroit missed out on Melo.

In securing a Melo/HOF caliber player and furthering your team's championship aspirations you don't decrease your ability to acquire that caliber of talent, as none of them came to us high in the draft, but you increase your ability to attract quality talent on the cheap via the MLE/LLE, etc.

There are no guarantees in this league. Whatever happens in this deal I'll be okay with. SOmetimes you gotta just make a choice and whichever one it is you gotta make it work out as best you can. I'd choose Melo in this instance.

I would swap Fields for Gallo (or vice versa) if they desired, but I would not include Mozgod, who I project will be as good or better than Nene in a couple of years.

Allanfan20 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Gotta love it. Same people who are blasting the Knicks for this proposed trade will be the same ones blasting the Knicks if Melo goes to the Nyets.

And they were against signing Amare and letting David Lee walk.

Ohh this is so wrong it's not even funny. Yeah, people wanted to keep Lee, but not for the bigger picture.

You either have selective amnesia or you missed those threads. What bigger picture were they thinking of by giving Lee $80 million? See how Bonn's feels!

And proudly so on my part (except for letting Lee walk). Nothing against Amare either, as I've explained before.

First off, no need for the insults. I am going by what I read. Second off, Bonn wasn't even posting a year ago when we were talking about Lee Vs Stat and Bosh vs Lee (Which I actually said I'd rather have Lee over Bosh at a cheaper price).

And finally, when it was Free Agent time, I'm almost positive that I would say, 85% of us were thrilled that we signed Amar'e and then made the Lee trade. And I know Bonn would have preferred another way and I he stated that, and that's fine and his opinion. It's not right or wrong because so far, we haven't won a championship, so each opinion is every bit as valid.

And for the record, the bigger picture was LeBron. There was no way we'd keep Lee and have LeBron and Amar'e. If both of those guys decided to go to Miami and stay in Phoenix, then I am pretty sure most of the board (Myself included) would have been happy to keep Lee.

I did not insult you. What Bonn said today a lot of others were saying back then. I still don't get what you/others meant by the "bigger picture" because Amare had signed in NY so it was either Amare or Lee. But whatever! Have it your way dude.

You said I have selected Amnesia. No need for that. Secondly, I told you in that very sentence, right before the one you bolded, what the big picture was.

Your big picture sentence only mentioned Lebron. It didn't in anyway explain why fans like Bonn said keeping Lee and not signing Amare was a good idea which is similar to some fans saying give up very little for Melo or wait and see what happens!

NewYorkSoul wrote:Great thread..

One thing no one has mentioned is this scenario:

We try and trade for Chris Paul now. Then Melo will come to us in the summer, and learns a hard lesson about business vs winning.

New Orleans is currently run by the NBA, who is trying to sell the franchise to a new owner.

There is NO way the NBA approved a trade of their franchise player, much less for what the Knicks would be willing to give them.

Silverfuel wrote:

eViL wrote:dolan's behind this. i don't think i have to go any further to explain how i feel.

question for you, and I asked my buddy the same thing. If the talks were a sham, why didn't Melo tell Dolan to chill and wait for a couple of months? The fact that the Knicks are making trade offers means none of it was a sham right?

if the trade goes down. not a sham. if the trade doesn't go down, he sticks in denver, doesn't extend, then opts out. sham.