Dagger wrote:

fishmike wrote:just a litle perspective in Knick land... as THjr has taken over Landry's status of next superstar.

Fields may yet get his groove back and be a good NBA player, but between the injuries and ineffective play he's making Shandon Anderson consider a comeback.

we all liked him... but perspective.

This team will continue to be a sloppy mess until we get a floor general. We need a PG above all else.

They have very different skills, what are you trying to say, that any player that seem a to have potential can become a scrub? THJR is a bright spot in a horrid season, so people like to talk about him, I don't think expectations are that ridiculous for him.

In fact... THjr's best possible upside is Allan Houston or Reggie Miller... and there is a LOT LOT LOT of ground to cover before he sniffs those guy's jocks. Having a skill set and impacting NBA games are two very different category of things we are talking

fishmike wrote:

Dagger wrote:

fishmike wrote:just a litle perspective in Knick land... as THjr has taken over Landry's status of next superstar.

Fields may yet get his groove back and be a good NBA player, but between the injuries and ineffective play he's making Shandon Anderson consider a comeback.

we all liked him... but perspective.

This team will continue to be a sloppy mess until we get a floor general. We need a PG above all else.

They have very different skills, what are you trying to say, that any player that seem a to have potential can become a scrub? THJR is a bright spot in a horrid season, so people like to talk about him, I don't think expectations are that ridiculous for him.

what are those? Because a two way PG with Lowry's skill set look like a far more important piece than what THjr projects to be.

In fact... THjr's best possible upside is Allan Houston or Reggie Miller... and there is a LOT LOT LOT of ground to cover before he sniffs those guy's jocks. Having a skill set and impacting NBA games are two very different category of things we are talking

regardless of what THjr's potential is - the reason I hesitate at trading him, and to some extent Shump as well, is that this organization has forever been trading its youth, picks for 'established' players to help in the here and now.

And that has gotten us nowhere.

Just think if the Knicks had been barred from trading picks and youth away, and they had to keep players forever - how much better would we be right now, and how much brighter our prospects for improving? Go back 10 years, or 5.

Dolan claims to be patient. But he is not been. He certainly lacks foresight, and I wonder if he has ever reflected on past moves his team of yes people has made, and if he looks in the mirror, what he sees...

Shooting 40% from 3 and 50% from 2 as a rookie is very impressive especially with the volume of shots. Did Hubert ever attempt a 2pt shot? Hardaway's immediate skills should not be overlooked. There's no sense in comparing him to fields Wilson and gallo. He impacts the game in a way no knick guard has in a lonnnng time. His ceiling might also be higher and he may have a longer more productive NBA career

gunsnewing wrote:Exactly. This is why I argued with those who wanted to keep fields because his FG% was high. It's the same when I argue Tyson shooting 60% on his 3-5 all on dunks. I think it was you That point with on those occasions lol

Shooting 40% from 3 and 50% from 2 as a rookie is very impressive especially with the volume of shots. Did Hubert ever attempt a 2pt shot? Hardaway's immediate skills should not be overlooked. There's no sense in comparing him to fields Wilson and gallo. He impacts the game in a way no knick guard has in a lonnnng time. His ceiling might also be higher and he may have a longer more productive NBA career

He's a rookie... so in Knick land he's the next god, but what has his ACTUAL impact been this year? For a guy with all these great skills and upside he sure doesnt fill out the stat sheet.

gunsnewing wrote:Exactly. This is why I argued with those who wanted to keep fields because his FG% was high. It's the same when I argue Tyson shooting 60% on his 3-5 all on dunks. I think it was you That point with on those occasions lol

Shooting 40% from 3 and 50% from 2 as a rookie is very impressive especially with the volume of shots. Did Hubert ever attempt a 2pt shot? Hardaway's immediate skills should not be overlooked. There's no sense in comparing him to fields Wilson and gallo. He impacts the game in a way no knick guard has in a lonnnng time. His ceiling might also be higher and he may have a longer more productive NBA career

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Exactly. This is why I argued with those who wanted to keep fields because his FG% was high. It's the same when I argue Tyson shooting 60% on his 3-5 all on dunks. I think it was you That point with on those occasions lol

Shooting 40% from 3 and 50% from 2 as a rookie is very impressive especially with the volume of shots. Did Hubert ever attempt a 2pt shot? Hardaway's immediate skills should not be overlooked. There's no sense in comparing him to fields Wilson and gallo. He impacts the game in a way no knick guard has in a lonnnng time. His ceiling might also be higher and he may have a longer more productive NBA career

Im sorry.. Ive watched a lot of Knicks this year. Am I missing something? I see a bench player who comes in and hits his shots. He doesnt take risks. He doesnt force anything. He's taking what the defense gives to him on a team that has a bad record. He's not a playmaker. He's not a defender, and his opponents outplay him in like every category.

He's a rookie... so in Knick land he's the next god, but what has his ACTUAL impact been this year? For a guy with all these great skills and upside he sure doesnt fill out the stat sheet.

my condolences.

yea well... I pretty much DVR everything so I dont have endure the misery in real time.

That being said I firmly believe an significant upgrade like Lowry at PG has us back in the playoffs and able to challenge top teams in the east.

I agree- its just at what cost. This team has shown flashes of being really good and has resembled the team that won 54 games just a year ago.

Dagger wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Dagger wrote:

fishmike wrote:just a litle perspective in Knick land... as THjr has taken over Landry's status of next superstar.

Fields may yet get his groove back and be a good NBA player, but between the injuries and ineffective play he's making Shandon Anderson consider a comeback.

we all liked him... but perspective.

This team will continue to be a sloppy mess until we get a floor general. We need a PG above all else.

They have very different skills, what are you trying to say, that any player that seem a to have potential can become a scrub? THJR is a bright spot in a horrid season, so people like to talk about him, I don't think expectations are that ridiculous for him.

what are those? Because a two way PG with Lowry's skill set look like a far more important piece than what THjr projects to be.

In fact... THjr's best possible upside is Allan Houston or Reggie Miller... and there is a LOT LOT LOT of ground to cover before he sniffs those guy's jocks. Having a skill set and impacting NBA games are two very different category of things we are talking

regardless of what THjr's potential is - the reason I hesitate at trading him, and to some extent Shump as well, is that this organization has forever been trading its youth, picks for 'established' players to help in the here and now.

And that has gotten us nowhere.

Just think if the Knicks had been barred from trading picks and youth away, and they had to keep players forever - how much better would we be right now, and how much brighter our prospects for improving? Go back 10 years, or 5.

Dolan claims to be patient. But he is not been. He certainly lacks foresight, and I wonder if he has ever reflected on past moves his team of yes people has made, and if he looks in the mirror, what he sees...

I totally agree with you. 100%. That being said there are certainly times when trading picks or young players for better or more established ones makes sense.

I look at this team and I see all the players devalued and the team playing poorly because of the dreadful guard play. I reminds me of when we thought Tony Douglas or a gimpy Baron Davis can hold down point. They couldnt and look at how well we played after Lin came in, even after Linsanity was over and he just a regular staring PG and we had that sick run post-MDA.

No picks or THjr for Teague. But Lowry? Thats a different category of player in my opinion. Worth a risk

Lowry is playing well in a contract year, he's been an average player his whole career. You're set on trading THJR for a player with no all-star selections and career averages of 10 points and 5 assists prior to this season. A player on a team with no leverage in trade negotiations that only traded Gary Forbes and a future first round pick to get him in the first place. Why would we give up a pick and THJR in a deal for him. Maybe you're not high on THJR but I don't think it's a big stretch to say he will have at least 1 all-star selection throughout his entire career, which would be more than savior Kyle Lowry has. Lowry has all the signs of a guy that will regress next year to a mediocre point guard once he makes his money. That reality, coupled with Toronto's weak position in trade negotiations, is good reason to hold off on giving two valuable assets away for him. This season is already lost, and, if Lowry is not a rental, then he signs for what 10 million a year? That would majorly cut into our 2015 cap flexibility.

THjr makes an all star game? Based on what?

Some #s on the untradable soon to be all star Hardaway:

MEMPHIS—Knicks swingman Tim Hardaway Jr. has enjoyed a highlight-filled first half of the season. The first-year guard out of Michigan leads all NBA rookies in three-point percentage, and he electrified a national audience on Saturday with a 36-point outburst in the All-Star Weekend's Rising Stars Challenge. The performance solidified what most fans already knew about Hardaway: The 21-year-old can score in bunches and has nearly limitless range on his jump shot.

Now, with 30 games left in the regular season, the Knicks 2.5 games out of the final Eastern Conference playoff slot, and third-year guard Iman Shumpert failing to make a consistent impact on offense, has the time come for Hardaway to join the starting lineup?

The answer is no, although many fans would surely disagree. Hardaway has seemingly done more to space the court for Carmelo Anthony, since he has been more accurate from long-range than Shumpert this season. And there is no comparison when it comes to converting fast-break opportunities: Hardaway is scoring on a team-high 59% of his chances, while Shumpert has scored on just 38% of his.

Plus, Hardaway scores more easily than any other Knick guard. His 15.7 points per 36 minutes dwarf Shumpert's 9.3 points per 36, and even outpace J.R. Smith's 14.5.

But despite all that, giving Hardaway starting minutes would almost certainly hurt the team more that help it—at least right now. Simply put, there is no reason to shake up the team's current starting lineup of Anthony, Shumpert, Raymond Felton, Pablo Prigioni and Tyson Chandler.

Even with Shumpert pressing badly on offense, the Knicks' starting five has outscored opponents by 20.5 points per 100 possessions this season, the most in the NBA for any five-man lineup that's played at least 100 minutes together. The Knicks run into problems when they break up the starting crew as the game progresses.

On the defensive end, Hardaway is a liability. Whatever offensive skills he flaunts, opposing shooting guards are outscoring him by 5.3 points per 48 minutes on the season. His problem is a general lack of court awareness and basic inexperience. In the Knicks' overtime loss to Sacramento before the All-Star break, the Kings ran screens for Jimmer Fredette when Hardaway was guarding him, knowing Hardaway wouldn't be able to get around the picks.

There's data to prove it: According to Synergy Sports, Hardaway has run into the screener a whopping 46% of the time when defending pick-and-rolls. As such, the Knicks surrender 5.8 more points per 100 plays defensively with Hardaway on the court, per NBA.com.

Once an opponent's shot is in the air, Hardaway isn't even half the rebounder Shumpert is. At 6-foot-5, Shumpert is an inch shorter than Hardaway, but his 9.8% rebound rate (the percentage of missed shots he grabs while on the floor) is more than double Hardaway's. In fact, Hardaway's team-worst 4.1% rebound rate is the league's lowest among players 6-foot-6 or taller, according to Basketball Reference.

All told, the Knicks grab 76.8% of opponent misses when Hardaway is on the bench, and 73.8% when he's on the floor. If that doesn't sound like much, it drops the Knicks from being the NBA's third-best defensive-rebounding team to the 20th best.

So, defensively and on the boards, Hardaway isn't helping the Knicks. What about offensively? Believe it or not, he's not doing them much good there, either.

The Knicks average 105.1 points per 100 plays with Hardaway on the bench, up from 102 when he's playing. And the team's other three wing starters—Felton, Prigioni and Anthony—have shot worse when sharing the court with him. Felton's and Prigioni's shooting percentages fall by 1.1% and 1.3%, respectively, while Anthony's falls 5.8%. In fact, among all of Anthony's 14 teammates, his shooting percentage falls most when he plays with Hardaway.

Some of that stems from Hardaway's unwillingness to share the ball—only 10% of his passes put teammates in position to score, according to SportVU tracking technology. But with Hardaway sporting the best shooting percentage of any Knicks guard, it isn't completely clear why Anthony and the Knicks' offense have been worse with him on the court.

Whatever the case, until Hardaway learns how to contribute more than just his scoring, the Knicks should cut his minutes rather than increase them if they hope to make the playoffs

gunsnewing wrote:I would have no problem paying Lowry. I agree he can be a core piece of a championship team whereas with Teague you don't know if he's capable of running an offense and defending at a championship level. However I don't think the Knicks should minimize the effectiveness of THJ. You need talent to win. When will Knicks fans and media ever learn? We are in this predictament because we mortaged every bit of talent and assets only to be left with Melo, a broken down Amare and a supporting cast of bums. It's not rocket science

Im not even sure THjr has more upside than Shumpert

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I would have no problem paying Lowry. I agree he can be a core piece of a championship team whereas with Teague you don't know if he's capable of running an offense and defending at a championship level. However I don't think the Knicks should minimize the effectiveness of THJ. You need talent to win. When will Knicks fans and media ever learn? We are in this predictament because we mortaged every bit of talent and assets only to be left with Melo, a broken down Amare and a supporting cast of bums. It's not rocket science

actually... since you mentions the Rockets. Are the Knicks this bad if Linn is running the ship? I mean the Knicks have done pretty in adding players along the way. Its figuring out who to keep and who to dump that has really hurt them. Did we need to include picks for Bargs?

Im not even sure THjr has more upside than Shumpert

I think rather than go after Teague and give up THJ or Shumpert and another 1st round pick for Lowry we can go after Lin and Asik for JR with Tyson going to a 3rd team that needs a center for a 2014 or 15 1st. But that would require Dohlan to bite the bullet and admit he f'd up

gunsnewing wrote:When you put it that way I don't have a problem trading THJ for Lowry but not Teague. I've said it before, having a real PG will make Shumpert better. Like he was when he played with Lin. More inspired, running the floor and lock down defense. JR off the bench is ok because he can create his own shot in the 2nd unit like Starks and Jamal whereas THJ can't yet. It still sucks to lose a kid who can shoot and run the floor while JR is up to his antics as the weather warms just in time for the playoffs every year

We need more than just pieces... we are playing below our talent now. We need pieces that fit.