Posted by holfresh:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Who's hyping Lee? I think Nocioni is three times the player Lee is, and he comes off the bench.

By look at the game log and follow Lee's name on the right hand side. In the first half everything he did was a positive. No missed shots, no turnovers, and holfresh wants him bashed.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=271230018

No Blue I don't want to bash him at all, just don't say things were going well when he is in the game because it wasn't going well...

He played 36 minutes with 11 pts, 7 boards...but somehow is was the only one doing well and playing the right way..





[Edited by - holfresh on 12-30-2007 3:24 PM]

[Edited by - holfresh on 12-30-2007 3:24 PM]

I was speaking of the first quarter, where the score was tied and he was 4 for 4 with some rebounds and no turnovers.

You were adamant that we didn't lose ground with curry when we clearly did: from even to down 8.

For some reason you feel the need to skew this much farther than it's worth.

Let me ask you guys this. If you make a list of Knicks you'd like to dump and those you'd like to keep, which side does Lee go on?

Lee is definitely a keeper, no doubt about it...I would trade the entire roster right now with Lee being the only holdover...I just can't take the hype....

The Knicks lost no ground with Curry as you stated....Lee was 3-3 when he left the game, he hit his 4th shot when he got back in the game at the end of the second qtr...Breen then chimed in about Lee not playing but Curry was playing well at the time but that doesn't matter....The Knicks played the Bulls even in the second quarter...Lee started the third quarter when the Knicks got blown out...Does he get credit for that or no?...

Papabear Says

The Knicks should have started the season with the same team they ended with last season before Crawford got hurt and inserting Lee in the starting lineup and finding another David Lee type player who could shoot and defend. Not saying that Curry had a lot of growth but maybe the system would have worked a little better. Balkman no matter how good of a defender he is, him and Jefferies must learn how to shoot a lay up. Thats basketball 101.

Papabear

Posted by 4949:

Posted by PresIke:

Coach, how confusing is it to you that the problems continue to exist?"

"We miss layups, keep working on trying to make things better"

and he's off...

his affect was very flat, he sounds depressed.

I'm confussed as to why he sounds depressed

Good question. This is more of a gut feeling. It wasn't necessarily his words as much as affect and manner of speech. His response to hard questions left him silent for a few moments, and you sensed a feeling of humiliation. This is a VERY proud guy who is now being humiliated by his team's failure to not just meet expectations, but become even worse. I just thought he sounded awful.

Posted by Cosmic:

Posted by BlueSeats:



I said the game was even when Curry entered the game. You insisted we lost no ground with Curry but we lost 8 points.

Here's the proof you're looking for...

knick bull gameflow

It's clear that when Curry entered the game went the Bulls way.

If you mouse-over the blue bars of any player it will show their stint. If you mouseover the blue bars of the lineup +/- flow... it'll show you the lineup in the game for that particular stint.

Very hand site to use. Interesting that Jeffries in/out seemingly had an impact as well. He seemed to be a part of all the + lineups and on the bench during the - lineups.

Go figure...but there's two ways to interpret these things: Jones came in for Jeffries and was a part of the - lineups so what was it? Was it Jeffries leaving or Jones entering that caused the problems?

Thanks cos, I was thinking of that site and didn't know where to find it. I've got it booked marked now. There's a wealth on info in there, more than I know how to utilize.

It's very hard to attribute peaks and dips to any one player. It's a game of runs, and it depends on the chemistry at the time and matchups with the other team.

But when I look at the play-by-play when curry comes in, the thing that jumps out at me are the turnovers and inefficiencies. Below, I'll highlight his name every time it appears. For his one point and one offensive rebound he gives you a missed 10 footer, which they scored off of, and two turnovers, one of which they scored off of.

4:52 19-19 Eddy Curry enters the game for Zach Randolph
4:52 Aaron Gray enters the game for Joe Smith 19-19 
6:33 19-19 Jared Jeffries offensive rebound
4:37 19-19 Nate Robinson bad pass
4:26 Luol Deng bad pass 19-19 
4:09 19-19 Nate Robinson misses 24-foot three point jumper
4:07 Luol Deng defensive rebound 19-19 
3:49 Aaron Gray traveling 19-19 
3:25 19-19 Eddy Curry misses 10-foot jumper
3:24 Kirk Hinrich defensive rebound 19-19 
3:15 Kirk Hinrich makes 25-foot three point jumper (Luol Deng assists) 22-19 
2:58 22-19 Eddy Curry traveling
2:58 Chicago full timeout
2:41 Luol Deng misses 20-foot jumper 22-19 
2:40 22-19 David Lee defensive rebound
2:20 22-19 Nate Robinson misses 25-foot three point jumper
2:18 22-19 Eddy Curry offensive rebound
2:12 22-19 Nate Robinson traveling
2:00 Aaron Gray traveling 22-19 
2:00 22-19 Mardy Collins enters the game for Nate Robinson
2:00 Andres Nocioni enters the game for Ben Wallace 22-19 
1:38 22-21 Fred Jones makes 15-foot two point shot
1:25 Ben Gordon makes 16-foot jumper (Kirk Hinrich assists) 24-21 
1:16 Ben Gordon shooting foul (Eddy Curry draws the foul) 24-21 
1:16 24-21 Eddy Curry misses free throw 1 of 2
1:16 24-21 New York offensive rebound
1:16 24-22 Eddy Curry makes free throw 2 of 2
1:02 Ben Gordon misses jumper 24-22 
1:01 Luol Deng offensive rebound 24-22 
1:00 Luol Deng makes layup 26-22 
0:42 26-22 Quentin Richardson traveling
0:33 26-22 Mardy Collins shooting foul (Kirk Hinrich draws the foul)
0:33 Kirk Hinrich makes free throw 1 of 2 27-22 
0:33 Kirk Hinrich makes free throw 2 of 2 28-22 
0:20 28-22 Eddy Curry lost ball (Luol Deng steals)
0:16 Ben Gordon makes layup (Luol Deng assists) 30-22 
0:00 30-22 Fred Jones misses 34-foot three point jumper
0:00 30-22 New York offensive rebound
0:00 End of the 1st Quarter

These things happen, I don't expect perfection, but in this game it was a momentum changer. I wont post the rest of the quarters play-by-play, but it's there to be seen further down this page and a quick look tells me that up until Curry entered, when we were tied at 19, our team had zero turnovers.
,

Holfresh did Lee date your daughter or something? You kill Lee who works his butt off, never gets in trouble and wants to be a team player. You stand up for the guys with character issues and that are selfish. Guess the white boy is getting an unfair advantage. You really think he gets a break being the only white guy in the organization pretty much? Bitty I know for a fact that Lee is well respected around the league. I was in Vegas and I heard how these pro coaches and owners talk to David. I also see how the players interact with him during that time. I can tell you three of his biggest fans are Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups, and Kobe Bryant. Lee isnt a great player but he will do the little things to win and is improving each year. I have a problem with the guys that are selfish on this team not the ones that try and fail

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by Cosmic:

Posted by BlueSeats:



I said the game was even when Curry entered the game. You insisted we lost no ground with Curry but we lost 8 points.

Here's the proof you're looking for...

knick bull gameflow

It's clear that when Curry entered the game went the Bulls way.

If you mouse-over the blue bars of any player it will show their stint. If you mouseover the blue bars of the lineup +/- flow... it'll show you the lineup in the game for that particular stint.

Very hand site to use. Interesting that Jeffries in/out seemingly had an impact as well. He seemed to be a part of all the + lineups and on the bench during the - lineups.

Go figure...but there's two ways to interpret these things: Jones came in for Jeffries and was a part of the - lineups so what was it? Was it Jeffries leaving or Jones entering that caused the problems?

Thanks cos, I was thinking of that site and didn't know where to find it. I've got it booked marked now. There's a wealth on info in there, more than I know how to utilize.

It's very hard to attribute peaks and dips to any one player. It's a game of runs, and it depends on the chemistry at the time and matchups with the other team.

But when I look at the play-by-play when curry comes in, the thing that jumps out at me are the turnovers and inefficiencies. Below, I'll highlight his name every time it appears. For his one point and one offensive rebound he gives you a missed 10 footer, which they scored off of, and two turnovers, one of which they scored off of.

4:52 19-19 Eddy Curry enters the game for Zach Randolph
4:52 Aaron Gray enters the game for Joe Smith 19-19 
6:33 19-19 Jared Jeffries offensive rebound
4:37 19-19 Nate Robinson bad pass
4:26 Luol Deng bad pass 19-19 
4:09 19-19 Nate Robinson misses 24-foot three point jumper
4:07 Luol Deng defensive rebound 19-19 
3:49 Aaron Gray traveling 19-19 
3:25 19-19 Eddy Curry misses 10-foot jumper
3:24 Kirk Hinrich defensive rebound 19-19 
3:15 Kirk Hinrich makes 25-foot three point jumper (Luol Deng assists) 22-19 
2:58 22-19 Eddy Curry traveling
2:58 Chicago full timeout
2:41 Luol Deng misses 20-foot jumper 22-19 
2:40 22-19 David Lee defensive rebound
2:20 22-19 Nate Robinson misses 25-foot three point jumper
2:18 22-19 Eddy Curry offensive rebound
2:12 22-19 Nate Robinson traveling
2:00 Aaron Gray traveling 22-19 
2:00 22-19 Mardy Collins enters the game for Nate Robinson
2:00 Andres Nocioni enters the game for Ben Wallace 22-19 
1:38 22-21 Fred Jones makes 15-foot two point shot
1:25 Ben Gordon makes 16-foot jumper (Kirk Hinrich assists) 24-21 
1:16 Ben Gordon shooting foul (Eddy Curry draws the foul) 24-21 
1:16 24-21 Eddy Curry misses free throw 1 of 2
1:16 24-21 New York offensive rebound
1:16 24-22 Eddy Curry makes free throw 2 of 2
1:02 Ben Gordon misses jumper 24-22 
1:01 Luol Deng offensive rebound 24-22 
1:00 Luol Deng makes layup 26-22 
0:42 26-22 Quentin Richardson traveling
0:33 26-22 Mardy Collins shooting foul (Kirk Hinrich draws the foul)
0:33 Kirk Hinrich makes free throw 1 of 2 27-22 
0:33 Kirk Hinrich makes free throw 2 of 2 28-22 
0:20 28-22 Eddy Curry lost ball (Luol Deng steals)
0:16 Ben Gordon makes layup (Luol Deng assists) 30-22 
0:00 30-22 Fred Jones misses 34-foot three point jumper
0:00 30-22 New York offensive rebound
0:00 End of the 1st Quarter

These things happen, I don't expect perfection, but in this game it was a momentum changer. I wont post the rest of the quarters play-by-play, but it's there to be seen further down this page and a quick look tells me that up until Curry entered, when we were tied at 19, our team had zero turnovers.
,

Come on Blue you are a bigger man than that...Cosmic may not have been following our argument but you and I know what the actual point was...I didn't want to go there but here goes...Your point was that the benched DLee in the second quarter so the Knicks lost ground, which was wrong...My point was never about Curry and you know that...DLee was in the game as the Knicks lost ground...Your argument should have been the Knicks lost ground when Zach left the game because Curry replaced Zach...Come on Blue, I have lots more repect for you than yo u are showing now bro...You are one of the guys who shoot straight from the hips, don't lose that...



[Edited by - holfresh on 12-31-2007 5:49 PM]

Posted by King1:

Holfresh did Lee date your daughter or something? You kill Lee who works his butt off, never gets in trouble and wants to be a team player. You stand up for the guys with character issues and that are selfish. Guess the white boy is getting an unfair advantage. You really think he gets a break being the only white guy in the organization pretty much? Bitty I know for a fact that Lee is well respected around the league. I was in Vegas and I heard how these pro coaches and owners talk to David. I also see how the players interact with him during that time. I can tell you three of his biggest fans are Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups, and Kobe Bryant. Lee isnt a great player but he will do the little things to win and is improving each year. I have a problem with the guys that are selfish on this team not the ones that try and fail

Receiving personal awards like All-Defensive team, All-NBA team, even the junky all-star team NOT the fan voting of course but the coaches vote is what I consider a player receiving respect. Apparently you went to Vegas and spent your time watching the NBA Summer League team.

My final word on Lee is this: you shouldn't get a Gold Star for doing what your suppose to do. Meaning him hustling, working hard, etc is his job and if he's not doing those things he's not in the league.

Other then that Have a great New Year and please don't spend it watching old David Lee game tapes.

Posted by holfresh:
Come on Blue you are a bigger man than that...Cosmic may not have been following our argument but you and I know what the actual point was...I didn't want to go there but here goes...Your point was that the benched DLee in the second quarter so the Knicks lost ground, which was wrong...My point was never about Curry and you know that...DLee was in the game as the Knicks lost ground...Your argument should have been the Knicks lost ground when Zach left the game because Curry replaced Zach...Come on Blue, I have lots more repect for you than yo u are showing now bro...You are one of the guys who shoot straight from the hips, don't lose that...



[Edited by - holfresh on 12-31-2007 5:49 PM]

This is what I said:

Posted by BlueSeats:

In the 1st quarter lee went 4-4 and was probably the best player on the floor for either team. We played with spirit and unity. Then Isiah sat him most of the second quarter. Curry put up points but the knicks lost ground and spirit.

The point was that Isiah went away from what was working in an attempt to get Curry off, and to work with Zach, and it backfired. Trying to keep two volume post players happy at the same time has been a recipe for disaster the whole season. When you start Lee and he has a flawless first quarter (100% FG, no TO's) and the combination of he and Zach have you tied at 19-19, but you go down 8 as soon as Curry bumbles his way in, maybe benching Lee to stay with Curry for the entire second isn't the best idea.

BTW, Lee didn't miss a shot the entire 3rd quarter, he just didn't get a chance to take one. Still he went 5-7 for the game, opposed to Curry who went 3-9 and Zach who went 8-23.

But your problem is that Lee doesn't get bashed as much as the rest of the team. I also said earlier in the tread that Zach is the best player on the team, why doesn't that satisfy you? Is it possible that Lee takes less heat than Zach because Zach is presented as an "all-star" stud who's a "huge upgrade, " while costing a mint and who's virtually untradeable, while Lee might be a better fit, lower maintenance guy, costing us pennies on the dollar, and is our biggest trading chip?

We know Lee sucks too. I typically refer to him as a role player and borderline starter. We say Lee was Isiah's best move and that's not saying a lot. But the guy still happens to have possibly the best leadership potential on the team as well the highest PER/48 on the team, yet you wont feel happy until he's getting smacked around the same as our overpaid prima dona slackers.

Fresh, this is my advice. Bash him yourself, don't ask others to. I went up against 300 rabid Marbury fans for 3 years on realgm telling it about Marbury like I saw it. I never asked anyone else to bash him, never accused racial bias against those who supported him. I simple spoke what I saw and let his career, and the opinions of his co-workers, speak for themselves.

You know what the biggest thing about Lee is? He keeps his mouth shut. That's it. He doesn't say anything stupid. That's why he gets a lot of credit because he just goes out and plays the game the best way he can and he doesn't say anything about it. He doesn't complain.

Well wrong again holfresh Lee couldnt play or jump and was dying to play. He went to Indy on his own to get it checked out because he wanted to play so bad. You have no idea what goes on and you just love killing the white boy on the team. I pray your done go stand up for Steph and Zach.