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The really short off season for knicks! How to run it back?
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DLeethal
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6/19/2026  12:06 PM
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:Teams in contention have allowed themselves to go over the second apron and get themselves back under when it was time to do so. I feel the Knicks could do that. I thought the draft pick penalties were only for repeat offenders.

it is... frozen means you cant trade it but you dont lose it unless you have 3 years in 2nd apron out of 5 i believe. 2 years in 5 is the safe zone

Winning a chip has been the kiss of death for teams in the second apron era. This is where Leon can separate himself for the rest of the pack. Celtics ran it back and then blew it up when they lost, that seems like the logical play for us here. But I wouldn't be mad for Leon to retool the back end of the rotation rather than give Mitch and Landry 30-40M per year and blow up the cap. You have seen teams get leaner and get better by doing this. Detroit let their vet bench pieces go and got much better. You could also argue Boston's cast got better as they trimmed the vets. I don't think losing Landry and Mitch is a death sentence, but it would require Leon nailing at least one draft pick, Mo and Kolek being ready for primetime, and 1-2 quality vets willing to sign for the minimum.

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DLeethal
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6/19/2026  12:09 PM
I was pretty convinced after our playoff series vs DET that they were making bad choices letting THjr, Beasley, Shroeder all walk for nothing, but they got better by retooling around younger labor.
DLeethal
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6/19/2026  12:11 PM
I am pretty confident we don't let Mo go if he's legit. We are just good at not letting quality guys walk, we are usually "right" with whom we decide to keep or move on from. If Mo has the goods, I believe he'll the priority for us to sign even if it comes at the expense of Mitch and Landry. If someone is willing to give those guys the bag, and in Mitch's case if someone is willing to give him the bag and make him their starter, he honestly deserves that opportunity.
SergioNYK
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6/19/2026  12:17 PM
We could win 20 games next season and I wouldn't care. I just wanted one championship. Anything that follows is fine with me.

Obviously we are not going to be able to bring everyone back. I won't be surprised if both Mitch and Shamet are gone. The 2nd apron sucks. And we got Brunson's extension to think about. But you got to trust Leon and co.! They'll do what is best for the team.

DLeethal
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6/19/2026  12:24 PM
SergioNYK wrote:We could win 20 games next season and I wouldn't care. I just wanted one championship. Anything that follows is fine with me.

Obviously we are not going to be able to bring everyone back. I won't be surprised if both Mitch and Shamet are gone. The 2nd apron sucks. And we got Brunson's extension to think about. But you got to trust Leon and co.! They'll do what is best for the team.

I think Leon should start maneuvering immediately, even if some hard decisions need to be made. If Knicks want to contend for 4-5 straight years, it starts this offseason. Nobody has ever been able to sustain top level success in the apron era. Partially IMO because they just stay the course and lose guys each year, instead of doing more dramatic retooling and keep looking forward. I think bench retooling is logical, and there may be a need for some starter retooling next offseason depending on what happens. Standing pat doesn't seem to work anymore with any of these teams. You get stale and slowly disintegrate. Every champion since 2019 has suffered the same fate.

nycericanguy
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6/19/2026  12:32 PM
Mitch is pretty irreplaceable, especially with rookies and vet min guys. I don't see any benefit to just letting him go.
DLeethal
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6/19/2026  12:35 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/19/2026  12:37 PM
nycericanguy wrote:Mitch is pretty irreplaceable, especially with rookies and vet min guys. I don't see any benefit to just letting him go.

IDK, he was not really a huge positive for us in these playoffs and close to a non factor in the finals. His FT shooting makes him unplayable at times and the hack-a-mitch coupled with Towns foul trouble proved to be a big liability. He had some big plays, but so did Alvarado, that doesn't make him irreplaceable. I love Mitch, but I don't think he is irreplaceable on this team. You aren't gonna replace his rebounding and defense 1 for 1, but could you get someone in here that overall provides a new look and comparable total benefit? Probably.

DLeethal
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6/19/2026  12:46 PM
I hope I don't come off as discrediting Mitch. He's awesome and will always be a beloved Knick. But we're dealing with realities here. We most likely need to replace Shamet and Mitch. Or I suppose there is a world where Deuce and Dadiet come off the books instead and we find clever ways to make it work.
martin
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6/19/2026  12:58 PM
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nycericanguy
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6/19/2026  1:02 PM
DLeethal wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:Mitch is pretty irreplaceable, especially with rookies and vet min guys. I don't see any benefit to just letting him go.

IDK, he was not really a huge positive for us in these playoffs and close to a non factor in the finals. His FT shooting makes him unplayable at times and the hack-a-mitch coupled with Towns foul trouble proved to be a big liability. He had some big plays, but so did Alvarado, that doesn't make him irreplaceable. I love Mitch, but I don't think he is irreplaceable on this team. You aren't gonna replace his rebounding and defense 1 for 1, but could you get someone in here that overall provides a new look and comparable total benefit? Probably.

but why is the question, what does avoiding the 2nd apron really do for us ON THE FLOOR?

I felt Brown did poorly with his substitution pattern with Mitch, If you play him earlier in quarters then the hack a mitch is off the table. and then you can play him in the last two minutes where teams cant do that. KAT's foul trouble didn't help either, but i think Brown mishandled that a bit.

I think just about everyone expected the knicks to go into the 2nd apron the next 2 years, so the Dolan statement was def a surprise.

Now I was thinking of it before and perhaps its posturing to scare teams off from offering MO a contract? Meaning Dolan saying we are willing to let Mitch go which means we could use an exception on MO?

once we sign MO we go into the 2nd apron for Mitch and Shamet and overpay them for 2 years instead of going 3 or 4 years.

DLeethal
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6/19/2026  1:20 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/19/2026  1:21 PM
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:Mitch is pretty irreplaceable, especially with rookies and vet min guys. I don't see any benefit to just letting him go.

IDK, he was not really a huge positive for us in these playoffs and close to a non factor in the finals. His FT shooting makes him unplayable at times and the hack-a-mitch coupled with Towns foul trouble proved to be a big liability. He had some big plays, but so did Alvarado, that doesn't make him irreplaceable. I love Mitch, but I don't think he is irreplaceable on this team. You aren't gonna replace his rebounding and defense 1 for 1, but could you get someone in here that overall provides a new look and comparable total benefit? Probably.

but why is the question, what does avoiding the 2nd apron really do for us ON THE FLOOR?

I felt Brown did poorly with his substitution pattern with Mitch, If you play him earlier in quarters then the hack a mitch is off the table. and then you can play him in the last two minutes where teams cant do that. KAT's foul trouble didn't help either, but i think Brown mishandled that a bit.

I think just about everyone expected the knicks to go into the 2nd apron the next 2 years, so the Dolan statement was def a surprise.

Now I was thinking of it before and perhaps its posturing to scare teams off from offering MO a contract? Meaning Dolan saying we are willing to let Mitch go which means we could use an exception on MO?

once we sign MO we go into the 2nd apron for Mitch and Shamet and overpay them for 2 years instead of going 3 or 4 years.

I'm not really focused on why because I can't get in Dolan's head. Just focused on what seems to be the reality we are dealing with here. Dolan misunderstanding the aprons is definitely on the table.

DLeethal
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6/19/2026  1:26 PM
Honestly Dolan putting himself back front and center has been the only blemish on this playoff run. It just doesn't seem like this new high horse of his is going to lead anywhere good.
Panos
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6/19/2026  3:07 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/19/2026  3:08 PM
If GTAvocado opts out, how much is he worth to resign him?
BlueKnickers
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6/19/2026  5:09 PM
DLeethal wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:Teams in contention have allowed themselves to go over the second apron and get themselves back under when it was time to do so. I feel the Knicks could do that. I thought the draft pick penalties were only for repeat offenders.

it is... frozen means you cant trade it but you dont lose it unless you have 3 years in 2nd apron out of 5 i believe. 2 years in 5 is the safe zone

Winning a chip has been the kiss of death for teams in the second apron era. This is where Leon can separate himself for the rest of the pack. Celtics ran it back and then blew it up when they lost, that seems like the logical play for us here. But I wouldn't be mad for Leon to retool the back end of the rotation rather than give Mitch and Landry 30-40M per year and blow up the cap. You have seen teams get leaner and get better by doing this. Detroit let their vet bench pieces go and got much better. You could also argue Boston's cast got better as they trimmed the vets. I don't think losing Landry and Mitch is a death sentence, but it would require Leon nailing at least one draft pick, Mo and Kolek being ready for primetime, and 1-2 quality vets willing to sign for the minimum.

I would consider our historical performance to be due to six guys in particular, our 5 starters and Shamet who was the turbocharger off the bench until the Finals.

Other players had their moments or special nights, but outside of those six there was nothing out of the ordinary contributed by the rest of the roster that couldn't be retooled in some respects.

So I'd have no problem with Leon NOT running it all back and continuing to refine around the core while staying under the 2nd apron.

We have a pipeline of players in McCullar, Kolek, Dadiet and Mo plus draft picks this year.

There's no reason we can't come back stronger with a revised bench rotation.

martin
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6/19/2026  6:03 PM
Panos wrote:If GTAvocado opts out, how much is he worth to resign him?

Haha OK that’s good

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TripleThreat
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6/19/2026  6:59 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/19/2026  7:47 PM
SergioNYK wrote:Obviously we are not going to be able to bring everyone back. I won't be surprised if both Mitch and Shamet are gone. The 2nd apron sucks.


One methodology for MRob is trading him into another team's existing trade exception. If they have one large enough. Or empty cap space. Most teams aren't in that situation though, to have that much blank cap space open. And MRob can refuse to "sign" into a sign and trade if he doesn't like the destination.

However, it becomes an interesting though unlikely wrinkle to all this.

Hypothetically, if the Knicks trade MRob in a sign and trade into another teams large trade exception that can swallow the entire salary, and said team will not breach the first apron ( projected at 209 million for the upcoming season) after the deal, and that deal is at least a three year contract ( irrelevant if Year 3 is a team option or player option), and the Knicks don't take a single dollar back, nor a player ( with the implied salary), then the Knicks can stay in the First Apron and not be hard capped.

In effect, it would be be for a draft pick or draft picks.

For example, the Chicago Bulls are rumored to want MRob. Let's say they are willing to offer MRob something like 3/45. They still have the trade exception from the Huerter trade that is IIRC, around 26-27 million. ( EDIT - It looks like the single Huerter exception is about 18 million, not sure where I remembered 27 from, that's the price of getting old, but likely still enough to fit MRob's market range) That's enough to swallow MRob's contract whole. Let's say they offer two 2nd round picks. The Knicks get the picks, don't get hard capped, don't breach the First Apron on their end, but the trade exception for MRob on their end goes into limbo. Meaning as a team breaching the First Apron themselves, they cannot use the MRob trade exception immediately. However if they get under the First Apron later, while the trade exception is still active, the trade exception then "activates" again. As long as it happens before the trade exceptions expiration date. Right now, based on current cap holds, the Bulls couldn't do that deal, but the offseason has a ways to go and let's see what teams do to shed salary moving forward.

If I was in Brock Aller's shoes, that's what I'd be doing now. Looking at teams right now with single trade exceptions worth 15-20 million that are not in danger of expiring before this all needs to be settled with MRob's UFA status.

Why would a non Knicks team do this? For the full Bird Rights. An example of that was Durant in a sign and trade to the Nets for D'Angelo Russell. Getting Durant's full Bird Rights were critical to opening up space for Kyrie Irving to sign as a street free agent, but also carve enough room for DeAndre Jordan ( I'm not saying that carve out was smart, I'm just saying the math needed to add up) Durant could have just signed into the Net's empty cap space, but that would limit their flexibility with all their other moves.

Which is something I said to Briggs years ago. In the current marketplace environment, teams can get away with only one big signing that's a street free agent without full Bird Rights. More than that, it's very difficult to build a contending team in the modern era.

If other here want to keep arguing the MRob drum, some and not all, then they can. But I don't see it personally. MRob needs practical "load management" at this point. You are moving somewhere near Daniel Gafford market approximation with more recent Gafford level "availability". It means you still need to mine the UFA pool for bench big men anyway. The focus, IMHO, should not be on making MRob's life easier as a big who is fast entering his practical decline phase. The focus should be on keeping Brunson healthy and enough depth to give him a breather.

As for the 2nd Apron sucking, here's something to consider. Without the new CBA, and it's punitive system, KAT would not likely be a Knick. KAT was effectively a big contract dump. It just happened to be luck and fortune that the Knicks could jettison Randle ( i.e. addition by subtraction) and move a player ( DDV) that ended up hurt this year. And more fortune that non basketball circumstances unlocked a level of maturity and nuance in KAT that helped him play a more well rounded team oriented winning oriented style of basketball. The failures of the 2nd Apron and the trend lines toward it earlier still indirectly helped the Knicks.

martin
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6/19/2026  7:23 PM
^
List of trade exceptions.

Teams that take in a sign and trade have to be below first apron and are hard capped there.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/transactions/trade-exceptions

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TripleThreat
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6/19/2026  8:14 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/19/2026  8:17 PM
DLeethal wrote:Winning a chip has been the kiss of death for teams in the second apron era.

IMHO, the magic "number" for the Timberwolves was about 9-10 million. They needed a fast trade where they could generate a quick deficit to not get hit hard by the new CBA. They desperately needed to shed salary, because of Anthony Edwards big money contract looming and the huge investment in Gobert, so they were willing to take on Julius Randle from the Knicks.

I did mourn however the loss of Donte D in that trade as well, as he was a great Knicks player.

The 2nd Apron allowed the Knicks to go, IMHO, full addition by subtraction by being in a prime position to dump Randle. The Knicks would have never won a title with Randle. I LOVE this current team's starting 5/core 5. I love the passion and leadership that Brunson brings. Brunson also wants to be here in New York. He loves New York. He loves the fans. What a huge difference compared to the turnover prone selfish diva style crybaby mental midget in Randle. Don't get me wrong, Randle had some huge games for the Knicks and he carried the offense in that first Thibs year, but the 2nd Apron made him way easier to dump, and IMHO, he just needed to be dumped.

So, the 2nd Apron is a problem, but if it brought the best version of KAT here and helped Randle get the boot, I can't criticize it too much. I do however miss Donte D though.

PatCummings
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6/19/2026  8:50 PM
DLeethal wrote:Honestly Dolan putting himself back front and center has been the only blemish on this playoff run. It just doesn't seem like this new high horse of his is going to lead anywhere good.

Yes. I’ve hated Dolan for so many years but haven’t minded him as much since Rose took over bc Dolan stepped aside. Hopefully Dolan stops talking soon. My owner hatred is laser focused on Woody

PatCummings
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6/19/2026  8:54 PM
DLeethal wrote:I hope I don't come off as discrediting Mitch. He's awesome and will always be a beloved Knick. But we're dealing with realities here. We most likely need to replace Shamet and Mitch. Or I suppose there is a world where Deuce and Dadiet come off the books instead and we find clever ways to make it work.

Deuce and Dadiet don’t make that much more than a min contract. Don’t think they move the needle much

The really short off season for knicks! How to run it back?

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