martin wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:Brunson isn't a bottleneck, he's been arguably the best playoff performer in the NBA during his tenure here. But he's human and has his struggles with intense ball pressure.

Thing is though, you can't stop EVERYONE, so KAT & OG are feasting.

Maybe this is a bad matchup for Brunson, would it surprise anyone to see him feast and average 32 in the next round? He's still the leading scorer in this series on either team, which he has amazingly done in EVERY playoff series on the Knicks.

It is a bad matchup for Brunson, but he is also leaning into that bad matchup by bringing the ball up the court himself too much while taking a long time to do it and then calling this own number too many time.

He just has to recognize the matchups for the team and do differently, like running the offense through KAT.

It's the next step for him and we are seeing the learning process in real time.

Yes. It comes back to the issue of adjustments and who is making them. If Brunson does not have the correct judgment to adjust then you have to rely on coaching.

There is plenty of evidence to say Brunson has rejected coaching up to now and only with the team's back put to the wall largely due to his bad judgment did Brunson relent and play differently than the first 3 games of this series.

Folks can defend Brunson all they want, but the issues of his stubborn refusal to adjust has been the key impediment to unlocking KAT's game in particular. If that is not a bottleneck then I don't know what is. KAT has to be the primary focus of the offense, not Brunson.

markvmc wrote:Someone posts pictures of big girls, and we get the win...

Thread-starters take note.

If it ain't broke ..........

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

martin wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:Brunson isn't a bottleneck, he's been arguably the best playoff performer in the NBA during his tenure here. But he's human and has his struggles with intense ball pressure.

Thing is though, you can't stop EVERYONE, so KAT & OG are feasting.

Maybe this is a bad matchup for Brunson, would it surprise anyone to see him feast and average 32 in the next round? He's still the leading scorer in this series on either team, which he has amazingly done in EVERY playoff series on the Knicks.

It is a bad matchup for Brunson, but he is also leaning into that bad matchup by bringing the ball up the court himself too much while taking a long time to do it and then calling this own number too many time.

He just has to recognize the matchups for the team and do differently, like running the offense through KAT.

It's the next step for him and we are seeing the learning process in real time.

Yes. It comes back to the issue of adjustments and who is making them. If Brunson does not have the correct judgment to adjust then you have to rely on coaching.

There is plenty of evidence to say Brunson has rejected coaching up to now and only with the team's back put to the wall largely due to his bad judgment did Brunson relent and play differently than the first 3 games of this series.

Folks can defend Brunson all they want, but the issues of his stubborn refusal to adjust has been the key impediment to unlocking KAT's game in particular. If that is not a bottleneck then I don't know what is. KAT has to be the primary focus of the offense, not Brunson.

No there isn’t, especially because there is plenty of other reasons Brunson and the Knicks are in the spot they are in that have nothing to do rejecting coaching, which you have not additionally articulated or fulfilled that statement.

Gigantic grey space of a myriad of factors that also come into play.

Brunson being slow to adjust is not the same thing as what you are suggesting.

Empirical evidence in real time and deductive reasoning based on different behaviors producing different results are the basis of proof, not gossip or revelations from the locker room.

What is evident to one person does not seem like evidence to another person, I get that, but in sports the metrics and results are there to prove when a person keeps doing the same thing despite clear proof doing something different may yield better results is enough to state there is

(a) a refusal to adapt or
as you may be saying
(b) an inability to adapt.

Anyway, being slow to adjust is the issue, regardless.

I am harder on Brunson than others out of respect for his intelligence, not in spite of it. IOW, I expect him to be smart enough to adapt to the situation without requiring him to be on the edge of oblivion to adjust or being forced by management to change.

So, if you are correct, than you are saying: Brunson is slow to adjust, because this is the only way he has played his whole life? How would you phrase it?

I still contend even lifelong habits are subject to change even if it can be very difficult to change in mid-stream.

BlueKnickers wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

martin wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:Brunson isn't a bottleneck, he's been arguably the best playoff performer in the NBA during his tenure here. But he's human and has his struggles with intense ball pressure.

Thing is though, you can't stop EVERYONE, so KAT & OG are feasting.

Maybe this is a bad matchup for Brunson, would it surprise anyone to see him feast and average 32 in the next round? He's still the leading scorer in this series on either team, which he has amazingly done in EVERY playoff series on the Knicks.

It is a bad matchup for Brunson, but he is also leaning into that bad matchup by bringing the ball up the court himself too much while taking a long time to do it and then calling this own number too many time.

He just has to recognize the matchups for the team and do differently, like running the offense through KAT.

It's the next step for him and we are seeing the learning process in real time.

Yes. It comes back to the issue of adjustments and who is making them. If Brunson does not have the correct judgment to adjust then you have to rely on coaching.

There is plenty of evidence to say Brunson has rejected coaching up to now and only with the team's back put to the wall largely due to his bad judgment did Brunson relent and play differently than the first 3 games of this series.

Folks can defend Brunson all they want, but the issues of his stubborn refusal to adjust has been the key impediment to unlocking KAT's game in particular. If that is not a bottleneck then I don't know what is. KAT has to be the primary focus of the offense, not Brunson.

No there isn’t, especially because there is plenty of other reasons Brunson and the Knicks are in the spot they are in that have nothing to do rejecting coaching, which you have not additionally articulated or fulfilled that statement.

Gigantic grey space of a myriad of factors that also come into play.

Brunson being slow to adjust is not the same thing as what you are suggesting.

Empirical evidence in real time and deductive reasoning based on different behaviors producing different results are the basis of proof, not gossip or revelations from the locker room.

What is evident to one person does not seem like evidence to another person, I get that, but in sports the metrics and results are there to prove when a person keeps doing the same thing despite clear proof doing something different may yield better results is enough to state there is

(a) a refusal to adapt or
as you may be saying
(b) an inability to adapt.

Anyway, being slow to adjust is the issue, regardless.

I am harder on Brunson than others out of respect for his intelligence, not in spite of it. IOW, I expect him to be smart enough to adapt to the situation without requiring him to be on the edge of oblivion to adjust or being forced by management to change.

So, if you are correct, than you are saying: Brunson is slow to adjust, because this is the only way he has played his whole life? How would you phrase it?

I still contend even lifelong habits are subject to change even if it can be very difficult to change in mid-stream.

Same things could have been said of Jordan before Phil showed up.

There is a learning curve in these things, you don’t account for that, and it’s the combination of 5 players not just 1. There are definite limits to Brunson’s game, he is not Stockton or Nash or Kidd, that needs to be accounted for. Normally, teams have wings that can dribble and pass, that overloads workload for Brunson. Not having a backup PG does the same.

What’s the normal learning curve for you to establish that this is a slow adjustment while also recognizing that Brunson is not really a normal setup PG?

Because it takes KAT to first learn and accept his role for others to build upon that too.

Brown was the guy that sat both Brunson and KAT in stretches unnecessary. That’s feeds into the whole ecosystem too.

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

martin wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:Brunson isn't a bottleneck, he's been arguably the best playoff performer in the NBA during his tenure here. But he's human and has his struggles with intense ball pressure.

Thing is though, you can't stop EVERYONE, so KAT & OG are feasting.

Maybe this is a bad matchup for Brunson, would it surprise anyone to see him feast and average 32 in the next round? He's still the leading scorer in this series on either team, which he has amazingly done in EVERY playoff series on the Knicks.

It is a bad matchup for Brunson, but he is also leaning into that bad matchup by bringing the ball up the court himself too much while taking a long time to do it and then calling this own number too many time.

He just has to recognize the matchups for the team and do differently, like running the offense through KAT.

It's the next step for him and we are seeing the learning process in real time.

Yes. It comes back to the issue of adjustments and who is making them. If Brunson does not have the correct judgment to adjust then you have to rely on coaching.

There is plenty of evidence to say Brunson has rejected coaching up to now and only with the team's back put to the wall largely due to his bad judgment did Brunson relent and play differently than the first 3 games of this series.

Folks can defend Brunson all they want, but the issues of his stubborn refusal to adjust has been the key impediment to unlocking KAT's game in particular. If that is not a bottleneck then I don't know what is. KAT has to be the primary focus of the offense, not Brunson.

No there isn’t, especially because there is plenty of other reasons Brunson and the Knicks are in the spot they are in that have nothing to do rejecting coaching, which you have not additionally articulated or fulfilled that statement.

Gigantic grey space of a myriad of factors that also come into play.

Brunson being slow to adjust is not the same thing as what you are suggesting.

Empirical evidence in real time and deductive reasoning based on different behaviors producing different results are the basis of proof, not gossip or revelations from the locker room.

What is evident to one person does not seem like evidence to another person, I get that, but in sports the metrics and results are there to prove when a person keeps doing the same thing despite clear proof doing something different may yield better results is enough to state there is

(a) a refusal to adapt or
as you may be saying
(b) an inability to adapt.

Anyway, being slow to adjust is the issue, regardless.

I am harder on Brunson than others out of respect for his intelligence, not in spite of it. IOW, I expect him to be smart enough to adapt to the situation without requiring him to be on the edge of oblivion to adjust or being forced by management to change.

So, if you are correct, than you are saying: Brunson is slow to adjust, because this is the only way he has played his whole life? How would you phrase it?

I still contend even lifelong habits are subject to change even if it can be very difficult to change in mid-stream.

Same things could have been said of Jordan before Phil showed up.

There is a learning curve in these things, you don’t account for that, and it’s the combination of 5 players not just 1. There are definite limits to Brunson’s game, he is not Stockton or Nash or Kidd, that needs to be accounted for. Normally, teams have wings that can dribble and pass, that overloads workload for Brunson. Not having a backup PG does the same.

What’s the normal learning curve for you to establish that this is a slow adjustment while also recognizing that Brunson is not really a normal setup PG?

Because it takes KAT to first learn and accept his role for others to build upon that too.

Brown was the guy that sat both Brunson and KAT in stretches unnecessary. That’s feeds into the whole ecosystem too.

Well, we are talking about evolving so that's really what matters isn't it?

Can Brunson evolve?

It should be the question we keep on the front burner, because he needs to.

We're seeing the benefits of when he does and does not adjust and accommodate his teammates more.

I think he's smart enough to evolve so the door is open for me to see it happen.

If his bad habits overcome his better judgment we will also see if that happens.

I don't know what the journey of Brunson is going to be, but the hero ball version alone will not win you a chip. He'll be game planned to death and beaten to a pulp as a small bodied bully baller and his game will not age well if he doesn't modify his approach.

Jalen has the opportunity to be great within his own limitations while accentuating the strengths of his teammates if he chooses to go down that path.

martin wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

Chandler wrote:Sorry Blue Knickers that’s not evidence or proof. It’s logical argument and innuendo that he was told to do something and he rejected it.

If you have some evidence you should be able to point to it/cite it

Besides even the innuendo is at least suspect. Yesterday many people brought the ball up or passed it up. So even if we sure that was something the coach wanted to do, which makes logical sense, he did it; he didn’t reject it

I am critical of brunsons play this series but not ready to say he rejected coaching

Here's my baseline Chandler.

We started the season playing the way Brown was hired to get us to play. Then it stopped.

My consistent assertion the whole season has been the primary responsibility falls upon a high usage PG like Brunson to involve his teammates. When that fails, the responsibility falls upon the coaches.

So how does it transpire that Brunson went from willing enabler of Brown's approach to not enabling it?

KAT had to adjust too, so there's that. His evolution from whining after every play into the less mistake-prone version of KAT we see now is also what Brunson needs to shift some of the usage to KAT.

So while KAT has demonstrably improved in almost all aspects of this game over the past couple of months, the key example of Brunson adjusting to KAT's evolution and ability to have the offense run through KAT finally happened in the last three games of the regular season.

And then inexplicably Brunson went away from that in the first three games of this series.

In the regular season and in this series, only when the deadline pressure hits critical mass have we seen Brunson shift his emphasis from over dribbling hero ball to a more harmonious style of play.

That's my storyline. I don't know why Brunson changed in each instance, but something got him to change. You don't want me to call it proof of his stubbornness. OK, let's say it my inference then.

I am not wrong about these observations, but maybe the semantic difference between stating it is a fact that Brunson is stubborn is what's tripping you up. My point is still about the adjustment regardless of the cause behind it.

And it is pretty clear that only with pressure mounting before disaster hits did Brunson modify his game. Read into it what you would like, it is still a fact it took going to the edge for him to adjust regardless of whether we call him stubborn or not.

You've taken a sample size of 3 games and made a statement of there being enough evidence of a player rejecting a coach. That’s silly.

That’s a player who has underperformed against a pretty darn good team since trade deadline who is also overloading their entire team against him.

This is exactly what a 7 game series is about.

Well, you can have your opinion without my saying you're silly.

I very clearly said my baseline was a whole season with a pivot point of the last 3 games of the regular season juxtaposed against the first 3 games of this series providing a very clear contrast with a clear point made.

I was rigorous enough in my explanation.

Chandler wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

Chandler wrote:Sorry Blue Knickers that’s not evidence or proof. It’s logical argument and innuendo that he was told to do something and he rejected it.

If you have some evidence you should be able to point to it/cite it

Besides even the innuendo is at least suspect. Yesterday many people brought the ball up or passed it up. So even if we sure that was something the coach wanted to do, which makes logical sense, he did it; he didn’t reject it

I am critical of brunsons play this series but not ready to say he rejected coaching

Here's my baseline Chandler.

We started the season playing the way Brown was hired to get us to play. Then it stopped.

My consistent assertion the whole season has been the primary responsibility falls upon a high usage PG like Brunson to involve his teammates. When that fails, the responsibility falls upon the coaches.

So how does it transpire that Brunson went from willing enabler of Brown's approach to not enabling it?

KAT had to adjust too, so there's that. His evolution from whining after every play into the less mistake-prone version of KAT we see now is also what Brunson needs to shift some of the usage to KAT.

So while KAT has demonstrably improved in almost all aspects of this game over the past couple of months, the key example of Brunson adjusting to KAT's evolution and ability to have the offense run through KAT finally happened in the last three games of the regular season.

And then inexplicably Brunson went away from that in the first three games of this series.

In the regular season and in this series, only when the deadline pressure hits critical mass have we seen Brunson shift his emphasis from over dribbling hero ball to a more harmonious style of play.

That's my storyline. I don't know why Brunson changed in each instance, but something got him to change. You don't want me to call it proof of his stubbornness. OK, let's say it my inference then.

I am not wrong about these observations, but maybe the semantic difference between stating it is a fact that Brunson is stubborn is what's tripping you up. My point is still about the adjustment regardless of the cause behind it.

And it is pretty clear that only with pressure mounting before disaster hits did Brunson modify his game. Read into it what you would like, it is still a fact it took going to the edge for him to adjust regardless of whether we call him stubborn or not.

I’m not disagreeing w your observations or logic on Brunson

The point I was making, and I think Martin was too, is your statement that he was rejecting the coach’s instructions. That’s a leap and seems out of character for JB.

Yes, it is a basic disagreement on the cause, but not a disagreement on the effect.

Most everyone here is already in some kind of agreement about Brunson's need to adapt his game so he is in sync with his teammates.

If he does that in time to salvage the team's prospects in the playoffs, then that will matter more than the back story on why he did not adapt sooner.

I think we're being too harsh on the guy now, he's having a rough series against probably the best guard defender in the entire league who is half a foot taller. Atlanta has 3-4 hyper athletic defensive wings on the court nearly at all times. It's really a nightmare matchup for JB.

DLeethal wrote:Half the time a possession ends in iso-Brunson it's not even his fault, it's out of necessity. The other half it's probably him calling his own number. But when possessions come up empty, the ball circles to the only guy on the team who can create a quality shot 1 on 1 out of nothing most of the time. This team is not much different than Detroit, in that it doesn't have a ton of guys who can break down a defense. It's really Brunson, KAT can do it in very particular sets as we've seen (he can't just call his own number and make it happen like Brunson can), and on much lesser levels, OG, Clarkson, Hart can get a shot up when its needed.

I think we're being too harsh on the guy now, he's having a rough series against probably the best guard defender in the entire league who is half a foot taller. Atlanta has 3-4 hyper athletic defensive wings on the court nearly at all times. It's really a nightmare matchup for JB.

agreed, and a rough series for him is 26 & 5.3apg on 42/39/82 shooting with 3.5 TO's which is lower than it has seemed. still the series leading scorer on either team

Playoff defenses are a different animal and you are of course playing a very good team every game.

We are averaging 14.5 TO's per game compared to 13.6 in reg season. ATL has actually turned it over more this series.

TO's aren't everything but we have also outscored ATL by 25 points in this series and really could have swept or be up 3-1 easy.

Alvarado, Shamet, CLarkson, Hart, Brunson, Deuce, even Mikal are all good ball handlers. I'm not sure you can expect to have more than that. Even Kolek is a good ballhandler.

I think to an extent just about every team struggles against playoff caliber defenses, especially when refs swallow the whistle a bit. Just look at the CLE/TOR game from yesterday.

nycericanguy wrote:I will say I think this ball pressure/lack of ballhandlers is overstated a bit.

Playoff defenses are a different animal and you are of course playing a very good team every game.

We are averaging 14.5 TO's per game compared to 13.6 in reg season. ATL has actually turned it over more this series.

TO's aren't everything but we have also outscored ATL by 25 points in this series and really could have swept or be up 3-1 easy.

Alvarado, Shamet, CLarkson, Hart, Brunson, Deuce, even Mikal are all good ball handlers. I'm not sure you can expect to have more than that. Even Kolek is a good ballhandler.

I think to an extent just about every team struggles against playoff caliber defenses, especially when refs swallow the whistle a bit. Just look at the CLE/TOR game from yesterday.

Outside of Brunson, Knicks do not have a guy that can just get his own off the dribble. Zero ankle breaking type dudes. They have guys that can dribble the ball up the court but they do not have intuitive passers from the core of guards/wings relative to their peers.

It matters when you run an offense over many games. Knicks are easily moved into a 10 second or less shot clock team by ball pressure and lack of ball movement out of it.

And it just showed because the Knicks are not easily up 3-1 or 4-0. Pacers and Detroit last year took full advantage of it.