HofstraBBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:The point is you want better results. Thibs did great with certain subset of players for 4 years. Might have gotten the best out of them.
COY year one. Playoffs 4 of 5 years.
You can bring a chip coach and say he better, but not if he can't get the best out of this roster FO believes is more talented but not a Thibian Roster.

Can a coach with a lessor resume do better? Not until you get hindsight do you get clarity.

Again, you want better results. You know the game Pano's, no guarantees. Why bother then? Not your money and nobody asked any of what to think it thru or help.

Nalod, don’t think it’s hindsight to say it was a puzzling move.
It’s just using historical and statistical data.
Thibs had the best single season results in 25 years. And as you mentioned, he made the playoffs last 4 of 5. We had one of the weaker benches in the NBA last year statistically.
Feel the FO is the one using futuristic hindsight.
Since statistically, one would think it would focus on improving the depth needed to win a chip.

The hindsight comes in a few years when we can look back. Let's not forget if Mikal was done playing for him that creates an issue.
It's all conceptual. But those closest to the team felt time for a change while (FO) media fills our heads with doubt. On the surface I agree with you and really thought highly of Thibs but I'm trying to make sense of it. You're talking about Thibs resume vs others and "Why bother". The issue is can a young coach with less history take this team further? Thibs has a very accomplished resume and Im not talking about just getting one that has a chip. That **** with Doc Rivers is an example of it not translating forward. Joe Mazzula is the opposite. George Karl 6th all time), Sloan (4th) and Don Nelson (2nd!!!) are top 10 all time with win totals are and never won a chip as coach. If available we'd hold that against them yet we love the potential of a Chris Quinn or Johnny because it's so promising. The Borgerro-Brown-Jenkins are those type but have warts on the resume. But........as I repeat, what's the context of those warts? Is the coach not more seasoned dealing with adversity and perhaps if they did not handle it right prone to repeat it over and over again or do they grow from it? All the guys I mentioned had decades long careers and had to evolve. Thibs to some extent also. Bud has the pedigree and is not even mentioned for any interview. Vogel? Have not read anything since he was made gone. Malone? Other than PhilC doing his Rainman act nothing is rumored there. "he knows the organization". Not really. Is anyone working in the FO since? He left 20 ****ing years ago.

Seems like two discussions.
One is, was it a smart move to let Thibs go. Mentioned why I feel not.
Second is what do we do now.
Agree that it is what it is and one must focus on what options are best NOW.
Still doesn’t mean some can’t be left with the feeling this was Dolanesque. Which is never good.
For me maybe Borgerro is intriguing because of the Pop tree.
But mostly because he may be new and I am not crazy about Malone,Jenkins or Nori. Since I see all as run of the mill offensive coaches without ever overachieving defensively.

Lol, perhaps Dolan was in on the exit interviews as Leon had to demonstrate why he had to pay 30mil to move on?
Not like he the only owner who had to do this. He had to eat 24mil of PhilJax's remainder just after he opted in those last two years. Then eat some crow and give Mills back the job he snatched from him. Meanwhile Isiah was in the attic laughing his ass off

Now if Dolan wanted Thibs gone and Leon did not that would be something to worry about!
I really have nothing but praise for the job Thibs did for his 1st 4 years. The 5th was not easy to watch at times and should have been given another year. But......there was treachery in the ranks and perhaps much we don't know.

Retread coaches rarely excite as much as the fresh faced assistant. None of this really excites me.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/knicks-owner-james-dolans-role-in-tom-thibodeaus-firing-explained-not-a-normal-regular-thing/

"Then, Vinnie Goodwill (Yahoo Sports) comes out with an accurate report about what happens during end-of-season meetings. James Dolan sat in on exit interviews, I can tell you, I have spoken to a number of people from a number of different organizations around the league — an owner sitting in on exit interviews is ... it raised eyebrows. It's not a normal, regular thing. That's not a routine thing. It wasn't something that happened with the Knicks until this time around

I think the above on Dolan is a big nothing ball.

You tell your owner you may want to terminate the coach he just agreed to extend for 3 and $30M don't you think he may want to hear what players may or may not be complaining about?

Given how Leon has operated to date -- I see NO WAY he would allow Dolan to tell him to fire Thibs if Leon wasn't ready to do so anyway.
If anything it may have been Dolan balking on the firing and Leon/WWW got him to attend meetings so he'd agree it was time for Tom to go.

Me personally - was always a Thibs fan but he needed to go ---- thanks but time to go and I'm not worried about next coach screwing anything up. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see Knicks effort was very up and down all of last year. Far too many disconnects on rotations and just simply grinding guys into some games where they should have been sitting their ass on bench.

Thanks Thibs - time to go.

Panos wrote:So.... whatever happened to Johnny Bryant? Have they not interviewed him? Wasn't he supposed to be a strong candidate?

I thought this was the biggest overblown story in a long time -- I call him Johnny Auerbach.

Thibs has been getting roasted because he doesn't even utilize his coaching staff -- think about 5th row Mo Cheeks.
Yet some fans were lead to believe Johnny was running the entire offense when what we actually saw him doing the most was telling Thibs when guys were in foul trouble or how many timeouts were left.

Does Thibs have a long history of a coaching tree track record where his assistants to on to become great head coaches? I honestly don't know if he does or doesn't.

VDesai wrote:

Nalod wrote:What's weird is The Athletic has given Katz a credit with James Edwards and another writer on an article but the subjects or speculation was not printed in the Athletic. Katz is not listed as "NBA STAFF" but contributed so its kind of weird.
So in my opinion Katz, who is part of Macri's crew is not quite as credible as others. That Begley came out and dispelled it I will go with that.
I have no agenda to back Dolan here but it's easy to get on the Dolan hate wagon again when we see something attributed as it was. CBS sports used freelance writers a lot. At best we can fill in the blanks and Livinglegend did a good job with his opinion. Fact is we don't know.

Katz is a National NBA writer on the Athletic and not the Knicks Beat Writer for the Athletic anymore (Edwards is). Katz is not a part of Knicks Film School. I haven't heard the Podcast because Katz and Shoot is behind a paywall. My guess is that he might have speculated with his own opinion / conclusions rather than reported as fact. He didn't write an article himself about what other's are saying he reported. That in and of itself is a strange if it was truly a scoop. People can take quotes out of context when people are on Podcasts.

That said everyone, including Begley, has reported that Dolan was in the conversations. That in and of itself was unusual. He obviously played a role in the decision making - to what extent he forced Leon or was in agreement with Leon is open question that probably will never be known. My own opinion is that if he forced Leon's hand, then Leon wouldn't be here anymore or won't be here for much longer because I don't think Leon is here to be an Isiah like shill for Dolan.

I stand corrected and Katz is credible. Appreciate the clarity.
No doubt reported by others Dolan was in on the convo's.

Your opinion makes sense and perhaps this was about Dolan wanting to be be there and here from the players themselves. Perhaps even ask Jalen flat out "would this be a problem for you outside of the personal hurt".

It's entirely possible Jalen personal relationship is one thing but he should understand the team dynamic and if he is unable to see it clearly then admit it. Leon I would imagine also has the kind of relationship with JB that transcends just the moment. Perhaps that Dolan was there to hear I would also imagine Kat, Mikal (and others??) could be done with a sign of respect to them and demonstrate or explain FO view and gain consensus if that was were they were going. Perhaps the players needed to hear somethings from the top. I'd gather Leon does not take to players often and for sure in playoffs not discuss any of this. Remember most of the contract stuff is done thru agents. Of course Leon understands the dynamic better than all of us put together.

As for free agency and players, I don't expect us to be major players. At the same time we go after players that will suit what FO is trying to construct. If we going uptempo and we want players that can contribute to that. Rosas and Aller have the trade front covered. Summer league? We don't need a coach for that other than to watch.

Perhaps we have one in place soon enough. At least we not doing press conferences in the parking lot!!!!

Nalod wrote:

VDesai wrote:

Nalod wrote:What's weird is The Athletic has given Katz a credit with James Edwards and another writer on an article but the subjects or speculation was not printed in the Athletic. Katz is not listed as "NBA STAFF" but contributed so its kind of weird.
So in my opinion Katz, who is part of Macri's crew is not quite as credible as others. That Begley came out and dispelled it I will go with that.
I have no agenda to back Dolan here but it's easy to get on the Dolan hate wagon again when we see something attributed as it was. CBS sports used freelance writers a lot. At best we can fill in the blanks and Livinglegend did a good job with his opinion. Fact is we don't know.

Katz is a National NBA writer on the Athletic and not the Knicks Beat Writer for the Athletic anymore (Edwards is). Katz is not a part of Knicks Film School. I haven't heard the Podcast because Katz and Shoot is behind a paywall. My guess is that he might have speculated with his own opinion / conclusions rather than reported as fact. He didn't write an article himself about what other's are saying he reported. That in and of itself is a strange if it was truly a scoop. People can take quotes out of context when people are on Podcasts.

That said everyone, including Begley, has reported that Dolan was in the conversations. That in and of itself was unusual. He obviously played a role in the decision making - to what extent he forced Leon or was in agreement with Leon is open question that probably will never be known. My own opinion is that if he forced Leon's hand, then Leon wouldn't be here anymore or won't be here for much longer because I don't think Leon is here to be an Isiah like shill for Dolan.

I stand corrected and Katz is credible. Appreciate the clarity.
No doubt reported by others Dolan was in on the convo's.

Your opinion makes sense and perhaps this was about Dolan wanting to be be there and here from the players themselves. Perhaps even ask Jalen flat out "would this be a problem for you outside of the personal hurt".

It's entirely possible Jalen personal relationship is one thing but he should understand the team dynamic and if he is unable to see it clearly then admit it. Leon I would imagine also has the kind of relationship with JB that transcends just the moment. Perhaps that Dolan was there to hear I would also imagine Kat, Mikal (and others??) could be done with a sign of respect to them and demonstrate or explain FO view and gain consensus if that was were they were going. Perhaps the players needed to hear somethings from the top. I'd gather Leon does not take to players often and for sure in playoffs not discuss any of this. Remember most of the contract stuff is done thru agents. Of course Leon understands the dynamic better than all of us put together.

As for free agency and players, I don't expect us to be major players. At the same time we go after players that will suit what FO is trying to construct. If we going uptempo and we want players that can contribute to that. Rosas and Aller have the trade front covered. Summer league? We don't need a coach for that other than to watch.

Perhaps we have one in place soon enough. At least we not doing press conferences in the parking lot!!!!

Yeah Katz is very very credible. Katz Bagely Edwards III all very straight forward with their facts and opinions.

Nalod wrote:Isn Begley is a credible as they come now.
Brunson backing of Thibs could have been more about it was not the time to address and saying the right thing right after a game.
He might be all good with Uncle Thibs and his loyalty is admirable.

If the others are not loving Thibs that might be bigger issue and perhaps one Loyalty cannot change. Not everything has to be a freaking drama.

Exactly - what else was Brunson going to say at that time. Yes - we need someone else besides Thibs. He was never going to say anything but what he said.

VDesai wrote:What I don't like is Free Agency is getting underway and we still don't have a coach. To me its important to bring in players, especially on the margins, that fit the coach's philosophy. That said seems like the front office wants to play one way and got tired of leaning into Thibs style. Hopefully whomever they hire is completely bought in to what it is they want to do...of course we have no idea what that is exactly.

I'm not worried about this front office - AT ALL.

But I do think one of the biggest requirements is past NBA coaching experience. So it's got to be Brown or Jenkins.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

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SergioNYK wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/TheFrankIsola/status/1939758579323740192

Window dressing. Hopefully.

FROM SHAMS:

Mike Brown will have a second meeting with the New York Knicks for their head coaching job and has emerged as a strong candidate, sources tell ESPN.