Chandler wrote:Fix = don't play D dont play. No exceptions

Problem is you have to have five guys on the court.

crzymdups wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

crzymdups wrote:KP getting much better looks now. Why oh why don't they do this earlier in the game?

One thing that I've never got about Melo - he uses his bullets early in the game. You watch a guy like Chris Paul or Lebron and they use the first three quarters to set up their teammates and then they score a lot in the 4th quarter if needed.

Anyway.

Because those guys play to win, Melo plays to "get his"

I think he wants to win, I just don't think he gets it.

edit: We also have seen how much better he plays with a smart PG like Billups or Kidd.

Wanting to win and not getting it are not compatible. He has had an entire career worth of coaches telling him what to do. He definitely knows what he needs to change, he is too fukking selfish to even bother trying.

I don't really buy that. I just think that people expect him to be able to be a master playmaker like Lebron and it's really not in his skillset. Because of their draft history, he'll always be compared to Lebron, but that's not him. Melo should've always been the leading scorer on a team where ANOTHER guy had the ball in his hands the whole time. Like if he'd played his whole career with Billups or Kidd or CP3. That's what Melo needed. He only got it a few years of his career.

Whatever - they've hit the point of no return now. Melo needs to go. It's the best for all parties.

I'm sorry to say it, because I've been a Melo fan, but he just isn't a leader. The one year that we had a 50 win season a couple years ago we had guys like Kidd, Rasheed, Camby and Kurt Thomas as the team leaders with Melo just being the primary scorer.

The problem is Melo does not give maximum effort all the time. He takes many possessions off on defense. The rest of the team sees this, and with him being the leader, it impacts the rest of the team and they follow his bad habits. This didn't happen on the other team I mentioned because Kidd, Camby and Rasheed (all whom play defense) would not allow it holding others accountable. Melo does not hold anyone accountable because he doesn't do it himself.

Also, as well documented, the offense stagnates when the ball goes through him. He doesn't make anyone better when he's in ISO Melo ball. Leaders make teammates better--he doesn't. Never has in his career. This is just the truth.

Finally, sometimes you have to question how much he values winning. You never see him get angry after embarrassing losses like this. It seems like he's kind of content with just being in New York, making his max money, while concentrating on his brand and life after basketball. If I were in his position, I'd not only waive my no trade clause, I'd be going to Phil helping to make it happen putting me on a team that's in contention to win a title. I dunno.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:KP getting much better looks now. Why oh why don't they do this earlier in the game?

One thing that I've never got about Melo - he uses his bullets early in the game. You watch a guy like Chris Paul or Lebron and they use the first three quarters to set up their teammates and then they score a lot in the 4th quarter if needed.

Anyway.

Don't worry this is all gonna change soon. Phil knows he has to make the move to this being about KP and the future.

This will literally be the third tear down rebuild in like 3.5 years under Phil. I wonder if Dolan is starting to lose patience. He was at the game tonight, don't know if he stayed for those "METTA METTA METTA" chants... but if he did, there's a good bet he didn't like them.

truthfully we never had a true rebuild probably because of Dolan

nyknickzingis wrote:I actually like where we are at even after this beat down. We didn't try to tank the season like the Lakers have or 76ers or many other teams have. We're going to be bad because that's just how the cards turned out. We tried to make a run with Melo/Rose and these vets. They just suck together. Maybe another coaching staff could have gotten more, but I like Jeff for KP's development.

The way KP finished the game made me feel really better.

The Lakers have tanked for years, and yet it's their vets they didn't draft like Young and Lou who really shined. I like their bigs effort tonight and Russell is a good passer, but they don't have a single player close to Kristaps's talent level on their roster. So tanking that bad isn't always the answer. Doesn't mean you wind up with a great pick. I see a bunch of solid to good players on that team, not a single future star. They're deep as hell now. They'll eventually be a good team and Luke Walton was my choice to coach the Knicks this year so they made a great choice there. However, there isn't an alpha or the top guy they can build the offense around with that team. I much prefer that we have someone like KP who you can throw the ball into the post, who can take defenses off the dribble from the 3 point line, be a stretch big etc. It's just about development and opportunities. Those opportunities come with a Melo trade, Rose being shown the door and having point guards that actually like to pass share the court with KP.

What we saw in the 4th is the blue print for the next team and the future. A point guard that looks for KP as the first option, that pushes pace and rewards bigs for hustle. Jennings is a good backup to keep around or injury reserve starter. We need someone new fresh at point guard, but for now Jennings is the best we have seen in the Phil Jackson era. He's better than Calderon and he's way better than Rose. I'm talking fit not individual talent. Individually Rose looks great when he's on. As for the team, he's a poor fit.

Willy struggles defensively, and he's learning. But I still love the kid. He's a rookie. He'll get there. So now with Willy, KP and BJ you may have three starters for next year penciled in. If you prefer Noah to start because Willy isn't good enough defensively, so be it.

Also this game cemented. Win or lose here on out, this team is not serious or interested in a playoff run. This was our last little chance here. 1.5 games out, 3 winnable games at home in a row. Came out with no effort. Played 1 on 1, no D, same old crap. We got our answer tonight. This team isn't interested in making a run or playing together. Tank city, here we come.

Rest of the season, I'm happy if we lose. Get better draft position. I'm hoping for a Melo trade. I want Rose's toxic play far away from this team.

Breen did make an interesting comment. At some point, maybe the coaching staff should consider moving the vets around, position wise? Breen even suggested how some teams would see Melo as a 4 and KP as a 5. Maybe we should have atleast tried a few games with Rose at 2, KP at 5 and Melo at 4. Their talent level individually was so high that it's crazy we just never tried something different for a few games.

I agree. Things look ok. KP and Willy have bright futures. I love jennings off the bench. You take the good with the bad with him. Holiday and Jennings are youngish vets who are keepers. Same with kuz. We need to land a great playmaking pg and keep jennings as insurance. No complete overhaul again. Just move on from rose and melo and replace with young talent that fits.

nyknickzingis wrote:One knock on Hornachek, he's been really stubborn with the starters roles. Even Breen suggested that with the constant complaints that the team is low on energy, stagnant, not moving quick enough on D, why not play smaller and quicker? Why not give KP at 5, Melo at 4, Holiday at 3, Rose at 2 and BJ at 1 a try for a few games? What's the worst thing that can happen there? We lose? I just don't get his stubborness when it comes to the starters.

Anyway I did like how they played in the 4th and tend to play in general with the 2nd unit and KP. That's our best bet moving forward. Find players that like to play at a high pace, unselfish, can shoot and defend. Easier said than done, but we should abandon the "lets trade for another team's franchise player who is on his way down" model for good. It's been our model for too long. This Melo/Rose disaster pairing should cement that.

I think the KP5, Melo 4 with Lee and Rose and Kuz was the worst lineup if you see the combinations Bonn posted on his thread. But those numbers were for very few minutes played together, so it may be worth at least trying more.

SocraticBallin22 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

crzymdups wrote:KP getting much better looks now. Why oh why don't they do this earlier in the game?

One thing that I've never got about Melo - he uses his bullets early in the game. You watch a guy like Chris Paul or Lebron and they use the first three quarters to set up their teammates and then they score a lot in the 4th quarter if needed.

Anyway.

Because those guys play to win, Melo plays to "get his"

I think he wants to win, I just don't think he gets it.

edit: We also have seen how much better he plays with a smart PG like Billups or Kidd.

Wanting to win and not getting it are not compatible. He has had an entire career worth of coaches telling him what to do. He definitely knows what he needs to change, he is too fukking selfish to even bother trying.

I don't really buy that. I just think that people expect him to be able to be a master playmaker like Lebron and it's really not in his skillset. Because of their draft history, he'll always be compared to Lebron, but that's not him. Melo should've always been the leading scorer on a team where ANOTHER guy had the ball in his hands the whole time. Like if he'd played his whole career with Billups or Kidd or CP3. That's what Melo needed. He only got it a few years of his career.

Whatever - they've hit the point of no return now. Melo needs to go. It's the best for all parties.

I'm sorry to say it, because I've been a Melo fan, but he just isn't a leader. The one year that we had a 50 win season a couple years ago we had guys like Kidd, Rasheed, Camby and Kurt Thomas as the team leaders with Melo just being the primary scorer.

The problem is Melo does not give maximum effort all the time. He takes many possessions off on defense. The rest of the team sees this, and with him being the leader, it impacts the rest of the team and they follow his bad habits. This didn't happen on the other team I mentioned because Kidd, Camby and Rasheed (all whom play defense) would not allow it holding others accountable. Melo does not hold anyone accountable because he doesn't do it himself.

Also, as well documented, the offense stagnates when the ball goes through him. He doesn't make anyone better when he's in ISO Melo ball. Leaders make teammates better--he doesn't. Never has in his career. This is just the truth.

Finally, sometimes you have to question how much he values winning. You never see him get angry after embarrassing losses like this. It seems like he's kind of content with just being in New York, making his max money, while concentrating on his brand and life after basketball. If I were in his position, I'd not only waive my no trade clause, I'd be going to Phil helping to make it happen putting me on a team that's in contention to win a title. I dunno.

Yeah, I agree he's not a leader. And he shouldn't be holding the ball on offense. I said that when he has a smart PG he plays better. When we had Kidd and Felton starting, the ball whipped around the perimeter non-stop and we got wide open threes or alley oops to Tyson

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:KP getting much better looks now. Why oh why don't they do this earlier in the game?

One thing that I've never got about Melo - he uses his bullets early in the game. You watch a guy like Chris Paul or Lebron and they use the first three quarters to set up their teammates and then they score a lot in the 4th quarter if needed.

Anyway.

Don't worry this is all gonna change soon. Phil knows he has to make the move to this being about KP and the future.

This will literally be the third tear down rebuild in like 3.5 years under Phil. I wonder if Dolan is starting to lose patience. He was at the game tonight, don't know if he stayed for those "METTA METTA METTA" chants... but if he did, there's a good bet he didn't like them.

This is the kind of game that gets a coach or gm fired.

I mean, I don't want to harp on this - but Hornacek does not seem like a very good coach. He's in a horrible position, put there by Phil, but man this looks like a complete mess. The team is in shambles and has no plan on offense or defense.

It's the players!!! More than anything it's PLAYERS FIRST and then the coach. It's not like there's some secret defense that none of the Knicks coaches know about. At a certain point you have to fill your team with 2 way players that play TEAM BALL if you want to win.

Maybe it's the players but. Maybe it is the president but who usually takes the fall?

Dolan has to have spoken to Phil who I'm sure has told him the path forward is to rebuild around KP. I don't think Dolan is going to panic. He gave Glen Sather AMPLE time to rebuild the Rangers and I expect he'll be patient with Phil knowing how popular KP is and having a chance to add more young talent.

Hopefully. Do you think Jeff's job is secure? I loved the hire but this has been a huge let down.

I think you have to give Jeff a chance to work with a young group of talent that will play HARD and listen. The young guys do that and I suspect things will look much different in terms of effort and hustle. Even if they still lose it won't be as lethargic.

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:KP getting much better looks now. Why oh why don't they do this earlier in the game?

One thing that I've never got about Melo - he uses his bullets early in the game. You watch a guy like Chris Paul or Lebron and they use the first three quarters to set up their teammates and then they score a lot in the 4th quarter if needed.

Anyway.

Don't worry this is all gonna change soon. Phil knows he has to make the move to this being about KP and the future.

This will literally be the third tear down rebuild in like 3.5 years under Phil. I wonder if Dolan is starting to lose patience. He was at the game tonight, don't know if he stayed for those "METTA METTA METTA" chants... but if he did, there's a good bet he didn't like them.

This is the kind of game that gets a coach or gm fired.

I mean, I don't want to harp on this - but Hornacek does not seem like a very good coach. He's in a horrible position, put there by Phil, but man this looks like a complete mess. The team is in shambles and has no plan on offense or defense.

It's the players!!! More than anything it's PLAYERS FIRST and then the coach. It's not like there's some secret defense that none of the Knicks coaches know about. At a certain point you have to fill your team with 2 way players that play TEAM BALL if you want to win.

Maybe it's the players but. Maybe it is the president but who usually takes the fall?

Dolan has to have spoken to Phil who I'm sure has told him the path forward is to rebuild around KP. I don't think Dolan is going to panic. He gave Glen Sather AMPLE time to rebuild the Rangers and I expect he'll be patient with Phil knowing how popular KP is and having a chance to add more young talent.

Hopefully. Do you think Jeff's job is secure? I loved the hire but this has been a huge let down.

I think you have to give Jeff a chance to work with a young group of talent that will play HARD and listen. The young guys do that and I suspect things will look much different in terms of effort and hustle. Even if they still lose it won't be as lethargic.

In our case, Melo's looked his best as a 4, and Rose's a 2. BJ is our only real 1. Shouldn't Horny be trying some things like that? We haven't seen much adjustments from Horny. He has had the same game plan for the starters almost all season. I think you have to adapt to your talent. We should have atleast tried to play different with Melo/Rose/KP. How about BJ starting at 1 full time, moving Rose to 2, Melo starting at 4 and KP at 5. Try that for 10 games. Couldn't have hurt. I think Hornachek has some great sets, but he's been very very inconsistent with what sets he insterts. He's also been inflexible with regards to playing Melo at 4, KP at 5, or starting BJ at 1 moving Rose to 2. I was hoping for a much better coach to be honest. He has let me down, and I was a fan of his. I still think he's the right coach for KP. Way better than Fisher.