Melo being shopped is part of the business when you're in the Knicks situation. Why was Jimmy Butler shopped? He is a better player than Melo right now and yet his team is shopping him as well. When you have someone Melo's age and the tean is struggling to be a good team, and you have a very good young player with more potential coming in the lottery draft, you have to consider what you can get for your veteran older star. It is not like we would be the only team that did this. It's not like we shopped Melo in the summer. We tried to build a team to win now and it failed and now we're looking at maybe moving him to a better situation while getting some longterm pieces back.

If we wanted to take crap, we would have taken the Clippers deal already. We are looking at getting Austin Rivers, a young player, a great shooter in JJ Redick who will open up capspace and also move Jamal to a third team so that we can get either some second round pics or more cap relief. If we wanted to take a crap deal, this deal woud be done already.

I definitely am open to keeping Melo. However if you look at the game last night it is the very reason keeping Melo will always be neither here or there. He takes so many shots, he is not very effecient or consistent, he is not a superstar, but a very good scorer. He can not carry a team to the playoffs anymore. So what can you really do there? We will win more than 30 games but less than 41 every single year with Melo. Is that the best thing for the team? I don't know.

I would have loved to have seen this team with a real point guard. As good as Rose is individually, BJ showed last night what a point guard that can pt pressure on the defense as a dribble penetration threat but also PASSES can do. Rose puts major pressure as dribble penetration but no one in the league is worried about a 2 point scorer who rarely passes. They eventually know he will cool off or they will force him to take shots over 2-3 players. If anything, I hope Phil can make a move for a real point guard before deadline .

newyorker4ever wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Phil is the one that wants him to go. Phil is the one that gave him the ntc and the trade kicker. But if Phil moves him for a package like it would be horrible. Reports are that Phil wants to get younger and build around KP. He would be adding a player four years older than Melo and another the exact same age. Also, the Clippers don't have picks to trade. There is no reason to do that deal for the Knicks.

You are operating under the belief that the Knicks have any trade leverage at all besides the actual trade deadline itself.

If you want to believe that, have at it. It's one way to see it ( Unlike many others on this site, I'm open to the idea that others have their view and its OK, even if it's different)

I don't see it that way.

This is not about if the Clippers have what the Knicks WANT in a trade. If Melo will only waive his NTC for the Clippers, and he's not going to a gutted team, then the best the Knicks can do is salvage "addition by subtraction" and hope the cap hits are short lived for them to get Melo off the roster.

When your list of teams reduces to 1, it changes everything. I don't think people see this here because Dolan insanely bid against himself when Melo wanted to come here from Denver, when the Knicks really had all the leverage ( it's NY or nowhere or lose Melo for nothing in FA for Denver)

The Knicks will not get Blake Griffin in a trade for Melo. It will not happen. Why? When the Clippers would have all the trade leverage? Now the Clippers might trade Griffin AFTER getting Melo to another team for other assets, but why would they give up the younger superstar player?

The Clippers need WING PLAYERS. Melo is a PF. Griffin is a PF. Griffin cannot play center, he has the athleticism ( he's off the charts) to defend the rim, but none of the instincts or timing or saavy to do it. You are also asking the Clippers to trade Doc Rivers son in this deal. Would they? ( People are irrational about their children, consider Dave Duncan, one of the best pitching coaches in baseball history, maybe of all time, went insane over how the Cardinals treated or did not treat his son in the organizational minors. You'll see superstar player have their "brothers" in the same team, just to keep that superstar happy. I think Bryce Harper or Stephen Strasburg has a brother in the same organization, you think it's because the kid is a massive talent like his brother?)

This is NOT about what the Knicks want, this is about what they can reasonably get given the circumstances. The circumstances IMHO dictate not much at all.

But if people want to see it different, that's up to them.

Yeah, I'm not buying that trade scenario at all. First, Rivers is terrible so the idea that he's a cornerstone of the deal is IMO insane. He adds zero to the Knicks. Crawford is fine but again not a fit here.

If the Clips and NY are in talks then a third team will have to be involved. And I agree, the Knicks can easily get short-changed in terms of talent but sometimes addition by subtraction is enough.

I understand that you guys don't want Crawford or Rivers but either one can fit just fine with KP especially Crawford. It's now coming out that none of Clev, Boston or the Clips are interested in Melo but the Clips are interested in C.Lee. Nobody wants Melo, at least the teams that we think he'd be interested in aren't interested in him. This of course could be just more writer talk that don't know what the hell they're talking about as usual.

I went out to dinner tonight with my wife and sons and my sons had an interesting take on a potential Clippers trade. Essentially they said that what the Knicks need IS three point shooters and that Rivers was playing decent ball lately. Not a great trade but potentially interesting for a Melo-less playoff run.

I'm not convinced CLE is out of the running. Gilbert has lost like $40M last year and while trying to respect Lebron's wishes might be very receptive to deals that both helped Lebron win AND lost some payroll commitment. Still a long shot.

I wouldn't rule out Miami either.

I don't know how bad Melo's relationship really was with Pringles but he'd be a great fit in Houston. I know we heard their relationship wasn't great but we hear everything from these new york writers and most isn't true.

I wonder if there would be a way to get D-Wade from the Bulls? Give them C.Lee and KOQ or whoever they want besides KP and Billy of course and bring D-Wade to new york to play with Melo, KP, Rose and Noah. He'd be a good leader for us.

Steve Francis redux?

newyorker4ever wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:I said this in another thread yesterday but you have to keep in mind what teams would have to take on if they trade for Melo which should give you an idea of why you shouldn't expect a big return for him.

He's about to hit 33 yrs old.
He's an offense only player (pretty much)
He comes with two more years and $54 million left and that's not including the trade kicker.
Any team that does take him is in win now mode and adding a player like Melo will definitely come with an adjustment period for the rest of the team
The only teams on his list (that we know of anyway) are teams that don't have the type of assets we would like in return of young players and draft picks (Clev, Clips)

We also need to remember that one of the biggest things we'd get in return from trading Melo is getting rid of those two years and $54 million which we could use and add to that the money we get from Rose and Jennings coming off the books. I understand that we all want as many assets that we can get from trading a player the caliber of Carmelo Anthony but i just don't see a trade with the limited teams he'll accept a trade to that will get us what we would like. I'm not saying we won't get anything but bad contracts in return for Melo cause if Phil can show patience with trading him i would think a team would eventually step up and give us at least a 1st round pick for him and probably more but he would need to hold out as long as possible to do that.

I think you have to ask yourself if we're better off with or without Melo for the next 2 and a half years?
Are we better off going with a complete rebuild cause if we are then Melo has to go for that to happen?
Are you ready for at least 3 years of being an average to bad team which is at least the amount of years it will take to get the team respectful enough to start competing every night?

The best thing that could happen for us with this is Melo giving Phil more teams that he would accept a trade to. If he could put Boston, Washington and any other teams that have young players and draft picks to trade that would be big for us. If he doesn't add teams to his wish list then the only other thing that could happen that would help us to get a good return for him is if we can get a 3rd team in any deal with Clev or the Clips.

My biggest point in this is it's not all that bad if we don't get the kind of return we all would like for him cause just getting rid of the last two years on his contract helps us in a true rebuild.

So your saying the biggest reason we get rid of Melo, now, is to clear cap space? What happened to rebuilding? Getting draft picks? Making team better? Why not just waive him then? Phil would be happy. So we clear up 25M or so a year. Now what? We get two more guys like Noah and Lee for 25M. Then we bitch about them for the next few years? Seems to be like Phil's ego is so big he needs to reboot every time his cleansing does not work, because he cant face any bad decisions on his part. This will be his third time around for a reset. He has 2 more years, so how many more does he need? And pleas don't say, "yeah we got KP, WIlly and Kuz though". That was Gaines. And they have shown to be good but very inconsistent and have a long way to go before we crown them All Stars, starters or solid NBA players. And if we were going to tank three years in a row, why did we need Phil? Just higher really good international and college scouts.

Do you have reading issues?? I never said that i'd be happy in not getting anything in return for Melo and that our best outcome would be just getting rid of his contract but that is one of the reasons why we need him gone for a rebuild. Of course i want draft picks and young players in return for him but that will be very hard to do so Phil needs to hold out as long as possible with him to get the best return possible and not just trade him to the first taker and whatever they're offering.

My reading issues are in bold above. Disagreed with statement that we should trade Melo even if it meant not getting "The kind of return we all would like"? Specially if it added guys that did not clear up cap space(Clips) or gets us draft picks.

Keep saying, Noah 17M and not very good,..very big problem. Rose not being a facilitator...very big problem. But from your last post, it seems like we are in agreement that Phil should hold out. Hope he does. But more so, hope he is also working on the real problems.

newyorker4ever wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:I said this in another thread yesterday but you have to keep in mind what teams would have to take on if they trade for Melo which should give you an idea of why you shouldn't expect a big return for him.

He's about to hit 33 yrs old.
He's an offense only player (pretty much)
He comes with two more years and $54 million left and that's not including the trade kicker.
Any team that does take him is in win now mode and adding a player like Melo will definitely come with an adjustment period for the rest of the team
The only teams on his list (that we know of anyway) are teams that don't have the type of assets we would like in return of young players and draft picks (Clev, Clips)

We also need to remember that one of the biggest things we'd get in return from trading Melo is getting rid of those two years and $54 million which we could use and add to that the money we get from Rose and Jennings coming off the books. I understand that we all want as many assets that we can get from trading a player the caliber of Carmelo Anthony but i just don't see a trade with the limited teams he'll accept a trade to that will get us what we would like. I'm not saying we won't get anything but bad contracts in return for Melo cause if Phil can show patience with trading him i would think a team would eventually step up and give us at least a 1st round pick for him and probably more but he would need to hold out as long as possible to do that.

I think you have to ask yourself if we're better off with or without Melo for the next 2 and a half years?
Are we better off going with a complete rebuild cause if we are then Melo has to go for that to happen?
Are you ready for at least 3 years of being an average to bad team which is at least the amount of years it will take to get the team respectful enough to start competing every night?

The best thing that could happen for us with this is Melo giving Phil more teams that he would accept a trade to. If he could put Boston, Washington and any other teams that have young players and draft picks to trade that would be big for us. If he doesn't add teams to his wish list then the only other thing that could happen that would help us to get a good return for him is if we can get a 3rd team in any deal with Clev or the Clips.

My biggest point in this is it's not all that bad if we don't get the kind of return we all would like for him cause just getting rid of the last two years on his contract helps us in a true rebuild.

So your saying the biggest reason we get rid of Melo, now, is to clear cap space? What happened to rebuilding? Getting draft picks? Making team better? Why not just waive him then? Phil would be happy. So we clear up 25M or so a year. Now what? We get two more guys like Noah and Lee for 25M. Then we bitch about them for the next few years? Seems to be like Phil's ego is so big he needs to reboot every time his cleansing does not work, because he cant face any bad decisions on his part. This will be his third time around for a reset. He has 2 more years, so how many more does he need? And pleas don't say, "yeah we got KP, WIlly and Kuz though". That was Gaines. And they have shown to be good but very inconsistent and have a long way to go before we crown them All Stars, starters or solid NBA players. And if we were going to tank three years in a row, why did we need Phil? Just higher really good international and college scouts.

Phil was doing two things at once. Giving it a go with Melo and some vets while also continuing to bring in youth and retain our picks and cap flexibility!!! People tend to keep forgetting these facts. Phil has maintained a degree of flexibility which other Knicks GM's failed to do. Who else did what Phil has in terms of keeping his options open???

Fair enough, so why did we need Phil for? Any GM could have cleared cap space. Not that hard to get rid of Tyson, Shump, JR, and now Anthony and get nothing in return. Nothing. Dont you have an issue with that? No issue with signing Noah for 17M? How is that helping our cap space? No issue with signing Rose for 22M or so? Instead of a couple of role players that could help KP and Melo better?

The biggest reason why Dolan brought Phil in was for something he and a lot of people thought he'd be able to do but never was able to which was attract the big names free agents. A lot of people thought that just by having Phil running the team and with how highly everyone thought of Phil at the time which was a basketball genius or god that the super star player would be jumping at the chance to play for the Knicks, well that never happened and now it's pretty much the exact opposite. You can't hate on Dolan for trying though and a lot of us and NBA people thought the same thin g would happen.

You say not that hard to get rid of Tyson, JR and Shump which is pretty funny because EVERYONE was saying at the time we still had those players that there's no way we'd be able to trade them and no team would want them or trade anything for them and after they were traded those same people that were saying we couldn't trade them were bytching and crying that Phil didn't get enough for them. Hahahaha

That's patently false. There was a huge contingent of the board including myself, Gustavballer, Yellowboy and VCoug that felt Tyson could've been moved for a better return that would include at least a first round pick. After all, guys like Omer Asik required a first round pick to acquire so a guy like Tyson could've easily fetched that. Personally, I think the Thunder would've given up their 21st and 29th picks in the 2014 draft since they didn't want the picks and ended up burning them anyway. Had we followed through on something like that, we could've significantly jumpstarted our rebuild because both Rodney Hood and Nikola Jokic were available at 21 and 29 respectively. But we lack foresight as an organization and couldn't miss on Jose Calderon's assist-to-turnover ratio.

Hmmmmmm i guess i must of missed all of those posts then.

Lol, or dismissed as being "haters" and not excited enough about the great promise of Shane Larkin and Jose Calderon's assist-to-turnover ratio.

newyorker4ever wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Phil is the one that wants him to go. Phil is the one that gave him the ntc and the trade kicker. But if Phil moves him for a package like it would be horrible. Reports are that Phil wants to get younger and build around KP. He would be adding a player four years older than Melo and another the exact same age. Also, the Clippers don't have picks to trade. There is no reason to do that deal for the Knicks.

You are operating under the belief that the Knicks have any trade leverage at all besides the actual trade deadline itself.

If you want to believe that, have at it. It's one way to see it ( Unlike many others on this site, I'm open to the idea that others have their view and its OK, even if it's different)

I don't see it that way.

This is not about if the Clippers have what the Knicks WANT in a trade. If Melo will only waive his NTC for the Clippers, and he's not going to a gutted team, then the best the Knicks can do is salvage "addition by subtraction" and hope the cap hits are short lived for them to get Melo off the roster.

When your list of teams reduces to 1, it changes everything. I don't think people see this here because Dolan insanely bid against himself when Melo wanted to come here from Denver, when the Knicks really had all the leverage ( it's NY or nowhere or lose Melo for nothing in FA for Denver)

The Knicks will not get Blake Griffin in a trade for Melo. It will not happen. Why? When the Clippers would have all the trade leverage? Now the Clippers might trade Griffin AFTER getting Melo to another team for other assets, but why would they give up the younger superstar player?

The Clippers need WING PLAYERS. Melo is a PF. Griffin is a PF. Griffin cannot play center, he has the athleticism ( he's off the charts) to defend the rim, but none of the instincts or timing or saavy to do it. You are also asking the Clippers to trade Doc Rivers son in this deal. Would they? ( People are irrational about their children, consider Dave Duncan, one of the best pitching coaches in baseball history, maybe of all time, went insane over how the Cardinals treated or did not treat his son in the organizational minors. You'll see superstar player have their "brothers" in the same team, just to keep that superstar happy. I think Bryce Harper or Stephen Strasburg has a brother in the same organization, you think it's because the kid is a massive talent like his brother?)

This is NOT about what the Knicks want, this is about what they can reasonably get given the circumstances. The circumstances IMHO dictate not much at all.

But if people want to see it different, that's up to them.

Yeah, I'm not buying that trade scenario at all. First, Rivers is terrible so the idea that he's a cornerstone of the deal is IMO insane. He adds zero to the Knicks. Crawford is fine but again not a fit here.

If the Clips and NY are in talks then a third team will have to be involved. And I agree, the Knicks can easily get short-changed in terms of talent but sometimes addition by subtraction is enough.

I understand that you guys don't want Crawford or Rivers but either one can fit just fine with KP especially Crawford. It's now coming out that none of Clev, Boston or the Clips are interested in Melo but the Clips are interested in C.Lee. Nobody wants Melo, at least the teams that we think he'd be interested in aren't interested in him. This of course could be just more writer talk that don't know what the hell they're talking about as usual.

I went out to dinner tonight with my wife and sons and my sons had an interesting take on a potential Clippers trade. Essentially they said that what the Knicks need IS three point shooters and that Rivers was playing decent ball lately. Not a great trade but potentially interesting for a Melo-less playoff run.

I'm not convinced CLE is out of the running. Gilbert has lost like $40M last year and while trying to respect Lebron's wishes might be very receptive to deals that both helped Lebron win AND lost some payroll commitment. Still a long shot.

I wouldn't rule out Miami either.

I don't know how bad Melo's relationship really was with Pringles but he'd be a great fit in Houston. I know we heard their relationship wasn't great but we hear everything from these new york writers and most isn't true.

I wonder if there would be a way to get D-Wade from the Bulls? Give them C.Lee and KOQ or whoever they want besides KP and Billy of course and bring D-Wade to new york to play with Melo, KP, Rose and Noah. He'd be a good leader for us.

If Wade can't lead the Bulls with Jimmy Butler looking like a superstar, what chance is there that he'd turn our season around?

The only thing this franchise has done right in 5 seasons has been tanking just before the 2015 draft (and even that we almost screwed up with Fisher winning games at the end of the season). Why would we screw up our tanking this season to bring in Dwayne Wade for a couple more pointless wins? Besides, if we wanted to run it back next season with Melo, wouldn't Jrue Holiday be a better player for us than an aging Wade? Hell, why not bring in both Holiday AND Wade AFTER securing a top 4 pick in this draft, if you feel the need to be competitive? We could have our cake and eat it too in thay scenario.

Then we would end up with, say, Rivers (who is better than advertised and coming into his own), Brice Johnson, and one or two future picks plus Felder. I would also include Courtney Lee for Reddick if that’s what is required. This is a scenario that I could live with. This is a good trade.

reub wrote:ESPN is saying that we’re trying to work the Cavs into the deal with the Clippers for Melo. I could see them taking Crawford off of our hands possibly for Felder or a pick. They’re looking for a “facilitator”.

Then we would end up with, say, Rivers (who is better than advertised and coming into his own), Brice Johnson, and one or two future picks plus Felder. I would also include Courtney Lee for Reddick if that’s what is required. This is a scenario that I could live with. This is a good trade.

No future picks. Rather wait until after the season and see what shakes loose pre-draft. Otherwise look to trade non-Melo assets.

crzymdups wrote:Melo watching the Clippers game tonight like... "I'm good, Phil. I'll stay right here."

GSW - 124
LAC - 84

with 8min to go in the 4th

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/los-angeles-clippers-golden-state-warriors-2017012809/

Ha, though to be fair they re without CP3

reub wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

reub wrote:ESPN is saying that we’re trying to work the Cavs into the deal with the Clippers for Melo. I could see them taking Crawford off of our hands possibly for Felder or a pick. They’re looking for a “facilitator”.

Then we would end up with, say, Rivers (who is better than advertised and coming into his own), Brice Johnson, and one or two future picks plus Felder. I would also include Courtney Lee for Reddick if that’s what is required. This is a scenario that I could live with. This is a good trade.

No future picks. Rather wait until after the season and see what shakes loose pre-draft. Otherwise look to trade non-Melo assets.

Melo has his highest trade value between now and the trade deadline to a contending team. Not in the offseason.

Do you really think Rivers and Felder make us better than Melo for next two years? Would like it if it included a couple of draft picks. Although they wont be very high and can result in a couple of Jerian Grants. And we all know how well that turned out.