fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:fishmike exactly who do you want? lol You think were getting great players for 7mm with the cap rising--you think Russell Westbrook is coming here in 2 years---get real.

LOL at you buddy. You think Darren Collison is one of the best defensive guards in the league, and he only makes $7mm so sure man... yea, lets get a great player like that ok?

I have been open about what I think is best. If you cant land a big fish you stay the course and focus on building from within. Go out and buy and grow your own Crabbes and Currys.

I think you pay much attention to the NBA at all Briggs. Teams that overpay for role players screw themselves. Teams that build from within have an influx of talent and a cap friendly roster.
Curry
Westbrook
Blake
Chris Paul
Greak Freak
Ibaka
Lowry
Gobert
Haywood
Oladipo
Mirotic
Schroder
Gallinari
Steve Adams (have you been watching the playoffs Briggs?)
JRue Holiday

And many many others.. but why have flexibility for that FA class when we can sign Crabbe and Goyle NOW?

You know what? If we whiff on everyone of them and just keep drafting and building I am fine with that. If you build this team up to at least be a .500 low seeded playoff team with the cap space to attract 2 max type players that is how you build via FA.

We have almost no shot for any of those players--I feel very comfortable saying paying Crabbe 14mm and Curry 7.5mm(which i hope would be considered overpaying by their own teams). I still think its more likely that their teams would still match. This is NO easy process. But I wouldnt build a team hoping that Steph Curry was coming here. If he wanted to come here we can make space. In the meantime deal with reality. NYK has had NO luck with tier 1 free agents in 25 years.

We had no luck in the draft either. Does that mean we should keep trading the picks? Tell me the seasons we had cap space and had "no luck" with FAs. The couple years we have had space who did we sign? Houston and Childs. After that? Tyson Chandler. Isnt a DPOY a high tier FA? Last year we sign Lopez, who is an excellent player, albeit not tier 1. So based on the years we have had an OPPORTUNITY to sign a tier 1 we have done pretty damn well.

Knicks have had cap space like 3 times in the last 25 years

What else ya got?

No sense arguing. I dont think we have a chance in heck to get a Curry or Westbrook--Im not going to worry about it. Theres a bunch of RFAs there that are going no where. If we did need to make space we can make it. We got secondary free agents last year when no one had cap space--now were fighting 27 teams.

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:overspending on role players hoping they become more than they are is just as bad as trading picks. The Knicks are a 37 win team. You phuck up the cap and it really hurts your chance to grow. The best run teams do this. Show me some examples of guys who were overpaid for and popped into the high end rotation or all star types you are hoping for. Its just a bad bad bet.

Tristan Thompson, Chandler Parsons, Gordan Heyward, Nicolas Batum(1st FA), Chris Bosh, James Harden, and plenty more. Those are all star types and some all stars.

those guys were bench/role players and were overpaid in FA? Dude what are you talking about? Go and look at those guys after 3 years in the NBA and come back to me. No relevance to this discussion at all.

So what is your critera? Role players that where overpaid, players that were overpaid, or players that had one good year and were overpaid?

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:overspending on role players hoping they become more than they are is just as bad as trading picks. The Knicks are a 37 win team. You phuck up the cap and it really hurts your chance to grow. The best run teams do this. Show me some examples of guys who were overpaid for and popped into the high end rotation or all star types you are hoping for. Its just a bad bad bet.

Tristan Thompson, Chandler Parsons, Gordan Heyward, Nicolas Batum(1st FA), Chris Bosh, James Harden, and plenty more. Those are all star types and some all stars.

those guys were bench/role players and were overpaid in FA? Dude what are you talking about? Go and look at those guys after 3 years in the NBA and come back to me. No relevance to this discussion at all.

So what is your critera? Role players that where overpaid, players that were overpaid, or players that had one good year and were overpaid?

All the guys you mentioned were putting up big numbers. Show me a guy putting up pedestrian #s like Crabbe, got paid and THEN broke out. How about Landry Fields?

I mean this argument is pretty straight forward isn't it? I am simply saying its bad business to pay big money to guy who have NOT produced. Those risks rarely pay out. All the guys you mentioned were already producing bigtime. Gordan Heyward hasn't left Utah. By his 3rd year he was putting up big number and following a clear progression.

Crabbe hasn't put up any #s like the guys you mention.

Finestrg wrote:I just feel there's a lot of truth/logic to the 'let's try and find our own Crabbes and Bazemores somewhere else' mentality. Look at a guy like Kent Bazemore. This guy was an afterthought after going undrafted in 2012. GS gave him a chance in SL and he played well, then he was traded to the Lakers and continued to play well. Now he's ready to cash in either with ATL or somewhere else. Danny Green's another guy that comes to mind -- drafted 46th in 2009 by Cleveland, subsequently waived by the Cavs, then had about 3 separate stints with the Spurs before he finally stuck and is now a starting NBA 2G on a real good team. Point is these teams didn't go right out and pay top dollar for these players right off the bat like we always seem to do. They zeroed in on a low-cost option, remained patient and developed them into players eventually. That's what I'd love to see us do--catch a good young player early who could be productive before it's time to pony up the moon and the stars to get after they're firmly established. Now I know we've tried to do that with Langston Galloway and I applaud the Knicks for that. Thing is with Galloway--I just don't think he's that great. He's serviceable but I just don't see him ever becoming that much better than he already is. Can't let that discourage us though. I feel very confident saying there are PLENTY of players out there in the DL, the 2nd round of the draft, even in the NBA right now, that have even higher ceilings than Galloway and who wouldn't cost an arm and a leg to get. Guys who fit, could exceed expectations and who have the chance to be here for awhile. I just hope the Knicks are doing their homework on these types of players. I think there's a lot of solid potential NBA role players to be had going this route, guys we wouldn't have to pay $14mm a yr for.

And say the top players in the league are set to command contracts close to $30mm/yr. How are we ever going to be able to offer a worthy top player (or 2) the max if we have guys like RoLo making over $13mm/yr, Crabbe added at $14mm/yr, Evan Turner somewhere over $10mm/season, Seth Curry at $7.5mm, etc., all ROLE PLAYERS mind you, eating up way too much of the cap space?? I don't think we'd be able to. And would a team comprised of several of these high-salary role players be able to challenge for it all anyway? Adding that significant amount of cap $, you'd hope so, yet why do I have my doubts?

I have my serious doubts about getting a worthy 30mm $ player. We have two stars in KP and Carmelo--now we need to add players who can fit in. I think you're getting two players that are just starting to break out with Curry and Crabbe. Yes we could probably get a Rondo for 2 years 28mm or whatever--but what does that do? Thats not team building.

If you watch Crabbe and say this guy can avg 15-18 points with the same efficiency===than hes worth every dollar. Same with Curry.

Finestrg wrote:I just feel there's a lot of truth/logic to the 'let's try and find our own Crabbes and Bazemores somewhere else' mentality. Look at a guy like Kent Bazemore. This guy was an afterthought after going undrafted in 2012. GS gave him a chance in SL and he played well, then he was traded to the Lakers and continued to play well. Now he's ready to cash in either with ATL or somewhere else. Danny Green's another guy that comes to mind -- drafted 46th in 2009 by Cleveland, subsequently waived by the Cavs, then had about 3 separate stints with the Spurs before he finally stuck and is now a starting NBA 2G on a real good team. Point is these teams didn't go right out and pay top dollar for these players right off the bat like we always seem to do. They zeroed in on a low-cost option, remained patient and developed them into players eventually. That's what I'd love to see us do--catch a good young player early who could be productive before it's time to pony up the moon and the stars to get after they're firmly established. Now I know we've tried to do that with Langston Galloway and I applaud the Knicks for that. Thing is with Galloway--I just don't think he's that great. He's serviceable but I just don't see him ever becoming that much better than he already is. Can't let that discourage us though. I feel very confident saying there are PLENTY of players out there in the DL, the 2nd round of the draft, even in the NBA right now, that have even higher ceilings than Galloway and who shouldn't cost an arm and a leg to get. Guys who fit, could exceed expectations and who have the chance to be here for awhile. I just hope the Knicks are doing their homework on these types of players. I think there's a lot of solid potential NBA role players to be had going this route, guys we wouldn't have to pay $14mm a yr for.

And say the top players in the league are set to command contracts close to $30mm/yr. How are we ever going to be able to offer a worthy top player (or 2) the max if we have guys like RoLo making over $13mm/yr, Crabbe added at $14mm/yr, Evan Turner somewhere over $10mm/season, Seth Curry at $7.5mm, etc., all ROLE PLAYERS mind you, eating up way too much of the cap space?? I don't think we'd be able to. And would a team comprised of several of these high-salary role players be able to challenge for it all anyway? Adding that significant amount of cap room, you'd hope so, yet I'd have my doubts.

Billups was putting up 12ppg, 5assts and STILL only got the mid level. Paying for an up and coming player is one thing. Paying a role player like they are an up and coming player when there is a really good chance they are NOT, is a bad gamble.

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Finestrg wrote:I just feel there's a lot of truth/logic to the 'let's try and find our own Crabbes and Bazemores somewhere else' mentality. Look at a guy like Kent Bazemore. This guy was an afterthought after going undrafted in 2012. GS gave him a chance in SL and he played well, then he was traded to the Lakers and continued to play well. Now he's ready to cash in either with ATL or somewhere else. Danny Green's another guy that comes to mind -- drafted 46th in 2009 by Cleveland, subsequently waived by the Cavs, then had about 3 separate stints with the Spurs before he finally stuck and is now a starting NBA 2G on a real good team. Point is these teams didn't go right out and pay top dollar for these players right off the bat like we always seem to do. They zeroed in on a low-cost option, remained patient and developed them into players eventually. That's what I'd love to see us do--catch a good young player early who could be productive before it's time to pony up the moon and the stars to get after they're firmly established. Now I know we've tried to do that with Langston Galloway and I applaud the Knicks for that. Thing is with Galloway--I just don't think he's that great. He's serviceable but I just don't see him ever becoming that much better than he already is. Can't let that discourage us though. I feel very confident saying there are PLENTY of players out there in the DL, the 2nd round of the draft, even in the NBA right now, that have even higher ceilings than Galloway and who wouldn't cost an arm and a leg to get. Guys who fit, could exceed expectations and who have the chance to be here for awhile. I just hope the Knicks are doing their homework on these types of players. I think there's a lot of solid potential NBA role players to be had going this route, guys we wouldn't have to pay $14mm a yr for.

And say the top players in the league are set to command contracts close to $30mm/yr. How are we ever going to be able to offer a worthy top player (or 2) the max if we have guys like RoLo making over $13mm/yr, Crabbe added at $14mm/yr, Evan Turner somewhere over $10mm/season, Seth Curry at $7.5mm, etc., all ROLE PLAYERS mind you, eating up way too much of the cap space?? I don't think we'd be able to. And would a team comprised of several of these high-salary role players be able to challenge for it all anyway? Adding that significant amount of cap $, you'd hope so, yet why do I have my doubts?

I have my serious doubts about getting a worthy 30mm $ player. We have two stars in KP and Carmelo--now we need to add players who can fit in. I think you're getting two players that are just starting to break out with Curry and Crabbe. Yes we could probably get a Rondo for 2 years 28mm or whatever--but what does that do? Thats not team building.

If you watch Crabbe and say this guy can avg 15-18 points with the same efficiency===than hes worth every dollar. Same with Curry.

with 3 years in the NBA you think Crabbe can be an 18ppg player? Rather than just saying I obviously don't watch basketball or talk about how little people that don't agree with know, why don't you tell us about his game? Can he get his own shot off? Is he great defender? What are his tools/skills that are taking him from a 10ppg role player (and that's a breakout year) to an 18ppg borderline all star?

Absolutely--I think he can score 15-18 points a night and do it at 45%+ Hes got great size a great stroke he can handle the ball hes athletic--hes just getting started--if you watched the playoffs and you cant see the future with this guy--then you can stick with the 32 year old retreads in the nBA.

They start at 31:20 mins about the Blazers and go into Allen Crabbe's RFA soon after that.

They said the average starter should make 15 Mil next year, but it could go higher just because the cap went up.

They also said the Blazers should try to sign Crabbe for the 4/40 - 4/46 range contract. So they have his value at the 10-12 mil range just like Zach Lowe said. So to steal him its likely going to cost more than that. Maybe 14-16 mil, possibly more because it has to be big enough to make the Blazers blink.

If the Blazers get a Max player this year, keeping a guy like Crabbe and 14 would severely limit their 2017 FA, because they need space next year too. Also of interest is Crabbe's Cap hold is 2 million. Making a large offer for him early will have a very big effect on the Blazers cap space because he takes up so little now.

They did say the shorter moratorium also hurts the blazers since it will be harder to convince RFA to deal when they can just wait. They also said they like Crabbe better than Harkless and Myers.

yellowboy90 wrote:I get the hesitation and aprehension of paying someone like Crabbe but name me another time in NBA history that will jump like it will over the next two yeara? Sometimes you have to role the dice on young players.

Much rather pay a guy like Derozan or Batum the max than give Crabbe $15mm. At least with one of those two I know they are moving the needle, I know they are good fits here, I know they will produce, I know they will fit I know what I am paying for.

I am just not willing to kill my future flexibility for Crabbe. To me he hasn't shown enough. This is usually the part where Briggs tells me I don't watch the NBA or have just been sleeping.

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:I get the hesitation and aprehension of paying someone like Crabbe but name me another time in NBA history that will jump like it will over the next two yeara? Sometimes you have to role the dice on young players.

totally agree. But to me you don't do that until you have whiffed on the higher tier guys. Also if the Knicks do nothing, they could potentially bring in TWO high impact guys the following year. That is the REAL FA draw. One guy doesn't want to be the savior, but enticing two all stars to come join Melo/KP and maybe Grant or one of these other guys breaks out.

Much rather pay a guy like Derozan or Batum the max than give Crabbe $15mm. At least with one of those two I know they are moving the needle, I know they are good fits here, I know they will produce, I know they will fit I know what I am paying for.

I am just not willing to kill my future flexibility for Crabbe. To me he hasn't shown enough. This is usually the part where Briggs tells me I don't watch the NBA or have just been sleeping.

Batum would be great here, Derozan not so much because he can't shoot.

Keep in mind I don't know why either guy would leave a playoff team for a knicks team that missed the playoffs 3 years in a row.

Its another reason why I feel Phil should try to use the RFA market to fill the roster. Good UFA are not going to go to the knicks for a max when they could go to a much better team for the same amount. The knicks need some young guys with upside that could help them attract a Max FA in 2017.

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:I get the hesitation and aprehension of paying someone like Crabbe but name me another time in NBA history that will jump like it will over the next two yeara? Sometimes you have to role the dice on young players.

totally agree. But to me you don't do that until you have whiffed on the higher tier guys. Also if the Knicks do nothing, they could potentially bring in TWO high impact guys the following year. That is the REAL FA draw. One guy doesn't want to be the savior, but enticing two all stars to come join Melo/KP and maybe Grant or one of these other guys breaks out.

Much rather pay a guy like Derozan or Batum the max than give Crabbe $15mm. At least with one of those two I know they are moving the needle, I know they are good fits here, I know they will produce, I know they will fit I know what I am paying for.

I am just not willing to kill my future flexibility for Crabbe. To me he hasn't shown enough. This is usually the part where Briggs tells me I don't watch the NBA or have just been sleeping.

I'm kind of in this camp. It can be the case that a max player is a value player if his real value is higher than the rules allow (See Lebron). I'm very curious what Phil thinks of him. He has the midrange and slashing and is still young. Crabbe at 15mm sounds like the best you can hope for is fair value. Who knows? Maybe Phil sees him as a guy ready to explode. I like him, but don't see explosion

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Finestrg wrote:I just feel there's a lot of truth/logic to the 'let's try and find our own Crabbes and Bazemores somewhere else' mentality. Look at a guy like Kent Bazemore. This guy was an afterthought after going undrafted in 2012. GS gave him a chance in SL and he played well, then he was traded to the Lakers and continued to play well. Now he's ready to cash in either with ATL or somewhere else. Danny Green's another guy that comes to mind -- drafted 46th in 2009 by Cleveland, subsequently waived by the Cavs, then had about 3 separate stints with the Spurs before he finally stuck and is now a starting NBA 2G on a real good team. Point is these teams didn't go right out and pay top dollar for these players right off the bat like we always seem to do. They zeroed in on a low-cost option, remained patient and developed them into players eventually. That's what I'd love to see us do--catch a good young player early who could be productive before it's time to pony up the moon and the stars to get after they're firmly established. Now I know we've tried to do that with Langston Galloway and I applaud the Knicks for that. Thing is with Galloway--I just don't think he's that great. He's serviceable but I just don't see him ever becoming that much better than he already is. Can't let that discourage us though. I feel very confident saying there are PLENTY of players out there in the DL, the 2nd round of the draft, even in the NBA right now, that have even higher ceilings than Galloway and who wouldn't cost an arm and a leg to get. Guys who fit, could exceed expectations and who have the chance to be here for awhile. I just hope the Knicks are doing their homework on these types of players. I think there's a lot of solid potential NBA role players to be had going this route, guys we wouldn't have to pay $14mm a yr for.

And say the top players in the league are set to command contracts close to $30mm/yr. How are we ever going to be able to offer a worthy top player (or 2) the max if we have guys like RoLo making over $13mm/yr, Crabbe added at $14mm/yr, Evan Turner somewhere over $10mm/season, Seth Curry at $7.5mm, etc., all ROLE PLAYERS mind you, eating up way too much of the cap space?? I don't think we'd be able to. And would a team comprised of several of these high-salary role players be able to challenge for it all anyway? Adding that significant amount of cap $, you'd hope so, yet why do I have my doubts?

I have my serious doubts about getting a worthy 30mm $ player. We have two stars in KP and Carmelo--now we need to add players who can fit in. I think you're getting two players that are just starting to break out with Curry and Crabbe. Yes we could probably get a Rondo for 2 years 28mm or whatever--but what does that do? Thats not team building.

If you watch Crabbe and say this guy can avg 15-18 points with the same efficiency===than hes worth every dollar. Same with Curry.

with 3 years in the NBA you think Crabbe can be an 18ppg player? Rather than just saying I obviously don't watch basketball or talk about how little people that don't agree with know, why don't you tell us about his game? Can he get his own shot off? Is he great defender? What are his tools/skills that are taking him from a 10ppg role player (and that's a breakout year) to an 18ppg borderline all star?

Absolutely--I think he can score 15-18 points a night and do it at 45%+ Hes got great size a great stroke he can handle the ball hes athletic--hes just getting started--if you watched the playoffs and you cant see the future with this guy--then you can stick with the 32 year old retreads in the nBA.

You also thought Shareef Abdul Rahim was the key to the Knicks being a good team again. You also thought Rodney White would be the player you just mentioned. You also thought Anthony Randolph would be a game changer. Sorry if I am not super impressed with your scouting and 100% promises. When Crabbe comes in the game he's mostly a spot up shooter and draws the weakest defender playing next to Liliard and McCollum. You understand that right?

Sorry dude I disagree. Im not holding out for Steph Curry or Westbrook, but guys do change teams. When the Knicks have had big cap space they have done very well and brought in good value. Of course you spent the first 3 months trashing Lopez who is easily one of the best values in the league, so maybe we disagree on that as well.

Briggs... rather than just going off your BB knowledge (which you have established as unparalleled), show me TWO GUYS in NBA history who had pedestrian numbers to the tune of 10pp 3rebs 1assist, was paid big money by a team and THEN broke out. Whatcha got? History is telling. I am really curious about how these types of contracts have worked out in the past. I cant remember any success stories. Plenty of fails thought. Whatcha got?

Ouch!
I agree with this too. People fall in love with swishes, but if he can't create his own shot that's a big issue. Also is he smart with the ball and help the next guy, or is he a more expensive AA (with a sweater stroke perhaps, but AA was top 10 in 3 threes one year not too far back so not a real slouch)