crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:
The problem with THIS team is the way it was constructed to run THIS Triangle. But Phil was the guy who signed every single player on the roster, so you have to think this is close to how he wants them to play - he just envisioned them being better at it.

Every major player he tried to add last summer was a post guy - DeAndre Jordan, Monroe, LaMarcus Aldridge.

He didn't even talk to any guards like Rondo or anything. No point guard was ever approached.

After Afflalo, I don't think we added a single guard, did we? Oh yeah... Sasha...

DJ is not a post guy and ROLO wasn't but he turned him into one.

DeAndre came out of the meeting saying that Phil wanted him to play in the post more and that's part of why he was intrigued.

that I believe to be 100% true.

crzymdups wrote:Barkley is kinda dumb and inconsistent... BUT, players around the league listen to his opinion. This doesn't bode well for free agent signings, IMHO.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/AdamZagoria/status/707230576269467649

Here's my take on Barkley's comments: yeah, he's a loud mouth and off base on a lot of things, but he's spot on here. I've felt the exact same way. Totally agree -- his comments definitely don't bode well for attracting FAs. Neither do the comments made by several current NBA players speaking out against playing in the triangle (two of which are prior Knicks). Here's the big difference between these other teams' systems and ours: the casual fan wouldn't even know what these other teams are running -- it's not world news. It's not overly emphasized as something that's bigger than the players. The talent (gathering talent and then cultivating said talent--talent of all kinds mind you, not system-specific talent) supersedes whatever system they're running. The system allows for organization and simply runs in the background where it belongs.. Over here with Phil, it's a whole different ball game. His system's stressed way too much publicly, more than the players, like it's the be-all/end-all. Phil's way too narcissistic about it, to the point where it's distracting. On top of that, I don't care at all for the tunnel vision he exhibits with regard to targeting triangle-specific coaches and players to run it/feature in it (mainly talking head coach and point guard here), ignoring many good possibilities along the way. Apparently, that's how many Phil/triangle supporters feel about it too--how many times are good names brought up on this board only to have the triangle supporters crap all over the idea, saying stuff like "he's not a triangle guy" and so forth? More times than I can count...But then there are other times where Phil completely surprises you by pulling a 180 by bringing in a Derrick Williams, a Tony Wroten, targeting (but not getting) a Jeff Teague, a Dennis Schroder, talking up Shane Larkin when he first made the Chandler trade etc.--players you wouldn't think he'd be interested in at all. So that's confusing as well. What kind of team is he looking to build? Sometimes I don't even think he knows.

My advice to Phil -- check your ego at the door already. Nobody likes arrogance. Put your rings away, stop quoting your damn book, DO NOT respond to Barkley on twitter anymore, and continue concentrating on talent gathering and player development (which he's done a decent job to be fair--we just need so much more). We're still in the talent gathering phase. Keep an open mind to all possibilities, not just what you believe will work in your system or what your system needs to work. Your job is to build the best team, not the best triangle team. Real Knick fans want substance over style all day. If he concentrates on keeping an open mind on all possibilities (head coach candidates AND players), talent accumulation, and being more humble (keeping the focus on the players, not him and his prior success/his system), he'll be ok. Can he do that? I dunno--might be asking for too much even though it shouldn't be.. My 2 cents..

It's not easy to build a team from nothing and sometimes you have to settle for certain players until you can get the ones you really want. I'm pretty sure Phil hoped Jerian would adjust quicker and take the starting job. He signed DWILL and drafted uptempo guys like Cleanthony and Thanasis. Still players have to be ready to contribute. That's why there's a developmental program being established.

Phil in his own words tells you how he views the game.

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.

1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.

2. Spacing. I am a fanatic about how players distribute themselves on the offensive end of the court. They must space themselves in a way that makes it most difficult to defend, trap, and help. Players must align a certain number of feet apart. In high school, I’d recommend 12 to 15 feet spacing, in college, 15 to18 feet, and in the NBA, 15 to 20 feet. Proper spacing not only exposes individual defensive players’ vulnerabilities, but also ensures that every time the defense tries to trap, an offensive player will be open.

3. Ball and player movements. Players must move, and must move the ball, with a purpose. Effective off-the-ball activity is much more important than most fans and players think because they’re so used to watching only the movement of the ball and the player in possession of it. But there is only one ball and there are five players, meaning most players will have the ball in their hands 20 percent or less of the time the team is in possession of the ball.

4. Options for the ball handler. The more options a smart player has to attack a defender, the more successful that offensive player will be. When teammates are all moving to positions to free themselves (or another teammate with a pick), the ball handler’s choices are vastly increased.

5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance. On all shots we take, players must go strong for the rebound while retaining court balance and awareness to prevent the opponent’s fast break.

6. Versatile positioning. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independent of the player’s role. All positions should be interchangeable.

7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.

Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

The triangle offense has proven most effective, even against such obstacles, when players commit to and execute the system. The offense hinges on players attending to minute details in executing not just plays but also the fundamentals underlying the plays. Once players have mastered the individual techniques required of their roles, we then integrate those individuals into a team. Once this is done, the foundation for a good offense is solidly in place. The team can then go on the court with the confidence and poise so essential to success.

This method of play is as old as basketball. The triangle set is adjustable to the personnel, but such adaptations can be made without altering the essence of the offense. The only necessary adjustment from one season to the next involves tailoring the series of options based on each individual’s talents.

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Chandler wrote:there's an awful lot of bellyaching about the triangle but not a lot of suggestions about what we should be doing. ANd I hope the answer isn't simply more PnR because if so I want some evidence of that ever being a championship plan. If you have two or three great players and you focus on PnR you can win games and probably end up anywhere from the dreaded 8 seed to an upper seed (Stockton and Malone having perhaps perfected it best)

With the exception of 2 years of the Heat when they were totally stacked (and where there was a lot of ISO ball), most championship teams have had heavy reliance on ball and player movement. I might be missing someone but I think I have to go back to the Pistons where I can say that wasn't the case.

You want mediocre, Ok let's go back to ISO melo, and PnR and a couple of guys camped out in a corner for a drive and dish from our unicorn, elite point guard that we can't even name, let alone get

PnR in itself is not the answer. If you watch how most of the league is trending then you would see that it is very different then old school systems.

Guys like Al Jeff parking in the post and slowing down the game doesn't fly anymore. Spread spread spread, drive kick, drive kick etc ...

the triangle is not for now.

The tenets of the Triangle work in theory... but you need someone who will update it. You need constant movement - minimize post play. Maximize dribble penetration and drag screens and pick and rolls. Spread the floor so that those open jumpers you are creating are 3s, not 18-20 foot 2s. Get the right personnel to play that style.

Triangle can work - just needs to be tweaked. Needs to minimize the triple post and maximize the ball movement, the read and react and floor spacing.

There are things it gets right. But Knicks are built too slow and don't have enough great passers or shooters.

I do think they could win more games with this roster with a different system, but not that many more. But I think they could be in the playoffs race if they had used a different system for this group of players.

this has been one of my big beefs. With the Knicks, even if the ball is moving, the people aren't. They're standing around way too much

If I were the supreme ruler, I'd focus on getting a smart SG who also knows when to pass the ball. That would do a ton more for us then breaking the bank on a pg. We only need an adequate pg with good ball skills and defense.

nixluva wrote:The Triangle is not the source of the problem. I challenge anyone to go back and look at how fast the Bulls played. I think everyone is making a HUGE mistake in assuming that Phil's vision of the Triangle is old, slow and stale! For one thing making judgements based on how it's looked with our roster is a huge mistake. It DID NOT look like this when they had MJ, Pippen, Harper and Kukoc. Not even when MJ temporarily retired did they look like the Knicks look. Those teams played fast and the Knicks will too when we upgrade the talent and develop the young players so they have the ability to execute much faster.

It's not easy to build a team from nothing and sometimes you have to settle for certain players until you can get the ones you really want. I'm pretty sure Phil hoped Jerian would adjust quicker and take the starting job. He signed DWILL and drafted uptempo guys like Cleanthony and Thanasis. Still players have to be ready to contribute. That's why there's a developmental program being established.

Phil in his own words tells you how he views the game.

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.

1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.

2. Spacing. I am a fanatic about how players distribute themselves on the offensive end of the court. They must space themselves in a way that makes it most difficult to defend, trap, and help. Players must align a certain number of feet apart. In high school, I’d recommend 12 to 15 feet spacing, in college, 15 to18 feet, and in the NBA, 15 to 20 feet. Proper spacing not only exposes individual defensive players’ vulnerabilities, but also ensures that every time the defense tries to trap, an offensive player will be open.

3. Ball and player movements. Players must move, and must move the ball, with a purpose. Effective off-the-ball activity is much more important than most fans and players think because they’re so used to watching only the movement of the ball and the player in possession of it. But there is only one ball and there are five players, meaning most players will have the ball in their hands 20 percent or less of the time the team is in possession of the ball.

4. Options for the ball handler. The more options a smart player has to attack a defender, the more successful that offensive player will be. When teammates are all moving to positions to free themselves (or another teammate with a pick), the ball handler’s choices are vastly increased.

5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance. On all shots we take, players must go strong for the rebound while retaining court balance and awareness to prevent the opponent’s fast break.

6. Versatile positioning. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independent of the player’s role. All positions should be interchangeable.

7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.

Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

The triangle offense has proven most effective, even against such obstacles, when players commit to and execute the system. The offense hinges on players attending to minute details in executing not just plays but also the fundamentals underlying the plays. Once players have mastered the individual techniques required of their roles, we then integrate those individuals into a team. Once this is done, the foundation for a good offense is solidly in place. The team can then go on the court with the confidence and poise so essential to success.

This method of play is as old as basketball. The triangle set is adjustable to the personnel, but such adaptations can be made without altering the essence of the offense. The only necessary adjustment from one season to the next involves tailoring the series of options based on each individual’s talents.

excellent post. And my point exactly. Jose doesn't penetrate, and when he does (rare) he just dribbles it back out. AA can penetrate on occasion but always shoots, or backs it in (and again shoots).

Some facilitation of the offense by one or both guards and you'll see a totally different system. We keep faulting melo but it's the lack of creativity from our guards

crzymdups wrote:

Chandler wrote:

nixluva wrote:The Triangle is not the source of the problem. I challenge anyone to go back and look at how fast the Bulls played. I think everyone is making a HUGE mistake in assuming that Phil's vision of the Triangle is old, slow and stale! For one thing making judgements based on how it's looked with our roster is a huge mistake. It DID NOT look like this when they had MJ, Pippen, Harper and Kukoc. Not even when MJ temporarily retired did they look like the Knicks look. Those teams played fast and the Knicks will too when we upgrade the talent and develop the young players so they have the ability to execute much faster.

It's not easy to build a team from nothing and sometimes you have to settle for certain players until you can get the ones you really want. I'm pretty sure Phil hoped Jerian would adjust quicker and take the starting job. He signed DWILL and drafted uptempo guys like Cleanthony and Thanasis. Still players have to be ready to contribute. That's why there's a developmental program being established.

Phil in his own words tells you how he views the game.

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.

1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.

2. Spacing. I am a fanatic about how players distribute themselves on the offensive end of the court. They must space themselves in a way that makes it most difficult to defend, trap, and help. Players must align a certain number of feet apart. In high school, I’d recommend 12 to 15 feet spacing, in college, 15 to18 feet, and in the NBA, 15 to 20 feet. Proper spacing not only exposes individual defensive players’ vulnerabilities, but also ensures that every time the defense tries to trap, an offensive player will be open.

3. Ball and player movements. Players must move, and must move the ball, with a purpose. Effective off-the-ball activity is much more important than most fans and players think because they’re so used to watching only the movement of the ball and the player in possession of it. But there is only one ball and there are five players, meaning most players will have the ball in their hands 20 percent or less of the time the team is in possession of the ball.

4. Options for the ball handler. The more options a smart player has to attack a defender, the more successful that offensive player will be. When teammates are all moving to positions to free themselves (or another teammate with a pick), the ball handler’s choices are vastly increased.

5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance. On all shots we take, players must go strong for the rebound while retaining court balance and awareness to prevent the opponent’s fast break.

6. Versatile positioning. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independent of the player’s role. All positions should be interchangeable.

7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.

Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

The triangle offense has proven most effective, even against such obstacles, when players commit to and execute the system. The offense hinges on players attending to minute details in executing not just plays but also the fundamentals underlying the plays. Once players have mastered the individual techniques required of their roles, we then integrate those individuals into a team. Once this is done, the foundation for a good offense is solidly in place. The team can then go on the court with the confidence and poise so essential to success.

This method of play is as old as basketball. The triangle set is adjustable to the personnel, but such adaptations can be made without altering the essence of the offense. The only necessary adjustment from one season to the next involves tailoring the series of options based on each individual’s talents.

excellent post. And my point exactly. Jose doesn't penetrate, and when he does (rare) he just dribbles it back out. AA can penetrate on occasion but always shoots, or backs it in (and again shoots).

Some facilitation of the offense by one or both guards and you'll see a totally different system. We keep faulting melo but it's the lack of creativity from our guards

Yes, but Phil hand picked the guards. We had almost $30M in cap room last summer and he didn't sign a single point guard. The only guard he signed was Afflalo.

If penetration is so important to Phil - why didn't he sign Shved? Or any point guard at all?

Also, re: #5 this Knicks team is terrible at preventing opponent fast breaks. Lack of team speed, but it's also bad coaching.

The Triangle doesn't HAVE to be outmoded. The way it has been instituted here and the way the roster has been constructed here is outmoded. And Phil is in charge of all of the above. He signed every single player on the roster.

Sometimes you just have to get by with what you can get until you can do better! This is a process and IMO Phil is navigating this team in the right direction and there has been roster Progress even with this losing record.

Teams below us that play a different style and system than us

Denver
Atlanta
Washington
Indiana
Miami
Orlando
Chicago
Milwaukee
Pheonix
Brooklyn
Lakers
76ers

Some of those teams are better - many of those teams are more talented overall.

Too much is made out about the offense and little about the defense. Knicks were one of the better defensive teams early on, and that has slipped. They're down to 20th in the league on defensive rating. That's the real key to our season. We came out with a lot of energy and ability to play defense. Then that just went away as the season wore on. Defensively, we're just not quick enough and don't force enough turnovers. This is why we need to get younger and more athletic in the backcourt. It's not just about offense even.

nyknickzingis wrote:Our offense rating is 18th in the league.
There are many teams that play completely differently and have far worse ratings.

Teams below us that play a different style and system than us

Denver
Atlanta
Washington
Indiana
Miami
Orlando
Chicago
Milwaukee
Pheonix
Brooklyn
Lakers
76ers

Some of those teams are better - many of those teams are more talented overall.

Too much is made out about the offense and little about the defense. Knicks were one of the better defensive teams early on, and that has slipped. They're down to 20th in the league on defensive rating. That's the real key to our season. We came out with a lot of energy and ability to play defense. Then that just went away as the season wore on. Defensively, we're just not quick enough and don't force enough turnovers. This is why we need to get younger and more athletic in the backcourt. It's not just about offense even.

Agreed I've been saying for a while are bigger problem is defense which is fixable fortunately and doesn't require a max to do so

Teams figured out that the best way to play us is to attack everyone off the dribble from 1-5 on the court.

Chandler wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Our offense rating is 18th in the league.
There are many teams that play completely differently and have far worse ratings.

Teams below us that play a different style and system than us

Denver
Atlanta
Washington
Indiana
Miami
Orlando
Chicago
Milwaukee
Pheonix
Brooklyn
Lakers
76ers

Some of those teams are better - many of those teams are more talented overall.

Too much is made out about the offense and little about the defense. Knicks were one of the better defensive teams early on, and that has slipped. They're down to 20th in the league on defensive rating. That's the real key to our season. We came out with a lot of energy and ability to play defense. Then that just went away as the season wore on. Defensively, we're just not quick enough and don't force enough turnovers. This is why we need to get younger and more athletic in the backcourt. It's not just about offense even.

Agreed I've been saying for a while are bigger problem is defense which is fixable fortunately and doesn't require a max to do so

Teams figured out that the best way to play us is to attack everyone off the dribble from 1-5 on the court.

The key is going to be improving the overall talent with more 2 Way players and hopefully younger Top Tier talent from the Draft. We need more smart, team oriented players that pass and defend!!! Some more athletic ability would be nice as well.

nixluva wrote:The best player on this team is still Melo at this point and there is no MJ, Pippen, Kobe or Shaq. The Triangle Offense is just a system and can't magically make up for Championship Talent. It also is doing better than the team's defense.

The key is going to be improving the overall talent with more 2 Way players and hopefully younger Top Tier talent from the Draft. We need more smart, team oriented players that pass and defend!!! Some more athletic ability would be nice as well.

No, the key is to ditch the Triangle.

The problem with the team is taking too many value shots. Full stop. It is caused by an outmoded offense that was created before the three point line even existed.