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Greg Monore is 100X better than Lopez
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nyknickzingis
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1/11/2016  9:31 AM
Porzingis/Monroe/Melo would also have been fantastic. The key difference is roles. Porzingis would need to anchor more and be a full time rim protector, something he doesn't have to do right now with Lopez. On offense though, you'd see less dry spots in the offense and less reliance on so much ball movement to get an open shot. With Lopez, he can create some shots in the post, but he's mainly a guy who sets great screens and holds great post position. Monroe OTOH can actually score regardless - again and again down there. He's got many more moves.

I think the potential on offense is higher with Monroe, but the defensive potential is higher with Lopez. In a way that's what we're seeing. We aren't a team a that can overwhelm teams with our scoring ability. We don't even have a true defined 2nd option - which would not be the case with Monroe. But, we're a much better defensive, rebounding and intangibles team with Lopez in the middle. It also allows Porzingis to play PF for a few years until he is strong and smart enough to play more minutes at 5. With Monroe, Porzingis wouldn't be able to stay out of foul trouble as much as he'd be the guy on defense that would have to do much of what Lopez is. He has the skill for it, but not the smarts or ability to stay out of foul trouble. And he'd get pushed around considerably.

IMO Phil wanted Monroe first with good reason, the offense would be on a different level, but he also got his 2nd option for good reason. Both would have had their positives and negatives. That said, Lopez is a fantastic teammate and a great intangibles guy. He is not selfish at all. I can see him root for a teammate's success playing 10 minutes a night. I can't see Monroe being like that. For the longrun, I think having Lopez is way better. In the short run, I think Monroe would give us something we do need - a defined 2nd option who brings it every night - and that's why I understand why Phil wanted him first, Lopez 2nd.

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mreinman
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1/11/2016  9:57 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
I like the way Lopez has played the last ten games-- probably the best string of games hes had in 3 years. Do we know definitely whether we would be better or worse with Monroe? He wont give you that force Lopez gives(or has now been giving) which is big time. But would Monroe score 18-20 points here and benefit from playing backed up by Porzingis as well?

In what sense? This is just the normal Lopez.

exactly!!

try to explain that 1000 times

so here is what phil is thinking ....
crzymdups
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1/11/2016  10:17 AM
In Fisher's post game press conference last night he was asked about how Rolo has been playing lately, last 10 games or so... Fisher said something interesting "He probably has more pop in his legs again now."

Remember that mysterious injury Rolo was getting over in training camp? I'm guessing it had to do with his legs somehow and it took him a while to get back to full strength. Maybe he had a knee procedure over the summer or something? The Knicks have kept it quiet before when guys have had surgery - they did it one summer with Shump. I wonder if they didn't want it getting out that their big free agent signing had some kind of knee or leg surgery over the summer? Especially considering his signing was a disappointment to some.

Anyhow, I do think he looks better the past 10 games or so. And maybe him playing more minutes isn't Fisher magically trusting him more - maybe he's finally healthy enough to play the minutes and play well.

This is the guy I thought we were signing.

I think Rolo's return to form is a big reason why we're doing so well. Obviously it's a ton of different factors, but Rolo is a big one.

¿ △ ?
BRIGGS
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1/11/2016  10:24 AM
crzymdups wrote:In Fisher's post game press conference last night he was asked about how Rolo has been playing lately, last 10 games or so... Fisher said something interesting "He probably has more pop in his legs again now."

Remember that mysterious injury Rolo was getting over in training camp? I'm guessing it had to do with his legs somehow and it took him a while to get back to full strength. Maybe he had a knee procedure over the summer or something? The Knicks have kept it quiet before when guys have had surgery - they did it one summer with Shump. I wonder if they didn't want it getting out that their big free agent signing had some kind of knee or leg surgery over the summer? Especially considering his signing was a disappointment to some.

Anyhow, I do think he looks better the past 10 games or so. And maybe him playing more minutes isn't Fisher magically trusting him more - maybe he's finally healthy enough to play the minutes and play well.

This is the guy I thought we were signing.

I think Rolo's return to form is a big reason why we're doing so well. Obviously it's a ton of different factors, but Rolo is a big one.

Absolutely--Rolo is playing with force--hes imposing his will and trying to score the ball and with good success. This is the play of someone making 13mm--what we saw in the first 20 games was not.

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fishmike
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1/11/2016  10:26 AM
crzymdups wrote:In Fisher's post game press conference last night he was asked about how Rolo has been playing lately, last 10 games or so... Fisher said something interesting "He probably has more pop in his legs again now."

Remember that mysterious injury Rolo was getting over in training camp? I'm guessing it had to do with his legs somehow and it took him a while to get back to full strength. Maybe he had a knee procedure over the summer or something? The Knicks have kept it quiet before when guys have had surgery - they did it one summer with Shump. I wonder if they didn't want it getting out that their big free agent signing had some kind of knee or leg surgery over the summer? Especially considering his signing was a disappointment to some.

Anyhow, I do think he looks better the past 10 games or so. And maybe him playing more minutes isn't Fisher magically trusting him more - maybe he's finally healthy enough to play the minutes and play well.

This is the guy I thought we were signing.

I think Rolo's return to form is a big reason why we're doing so well. Obviously it's a ton of different factors, but Rolo is a big one.

he's really good. Has some limitations for sure, but really brings tons of goodies to the table. He and KP really make each other better. KP's ability to smother the stretch bigs free's up Rolo to anchor the paint and that combo is really coming into its own. We impact teams with our size and force adjustments. Since Ewing was here it was generally the other way around.
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GustavBahler
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1/11/2016  10:30 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/11/2016  10:30 AM
One of the reasons this team went through more than a decade of futilty was the lack of low post defense. We now have not one but two elite rim defenders. This is what you need if you're going to make a legit playoff run. Thats how the Pacers beat us in the playoffs the last time.

If one of them is hurt, we still have someone in the paint who can hold up the fort. Thats a great option to have in an 82 game season and a possible playoff run.

Knixkik
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1/11/2016  10:32 AM
GustavBahler wrote:One if the reasons this team went through more than a decade of futilty was the lack of low post defense. We now have not one but two elite rim defenders. This is what you need if you're going to make a legit playoff run. Thats how the Pacers beat us in the playoffs the last time.

If one of them is hurt, we still have someone in the paint who can hold up the fort. Thats a great option to have in an 82 game season and a possible playoff run.

Having elite post defenders is great, but whats even better is we don't sacrifice in any other area to have that. In other words, Porzingis is so versatile that he can play the stretch 4, plus defend a little outside as well. We have adjusted to the modern, small-ball game without actually being small.

mreinman
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1/11/2016  10:36 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
crzymdups wrote:In Fisher's post game press conference last night he was asked about how Rolo has been playing lately, last 10 games or so... Fisher said something interesting "He probably has more pop in his legs again now."

Remember that mysterious injury Rolo was getting over in training camp? I'm guessing it had to do with his legs somehow and it took him a while to get back to full strength. Maybe he had a knee procedure over the summer or something? The Knicks have kept it quiet before when guys have had surgery - they did it one summer with Shump. I wonder if they didn't want it getting out that their big free agent signing had some kind of knee or leg surgery over the summer? Especially considering his signing was a disappointment to some.

Anyhow, I do think he looks better the past 10 games or so. And maybe him playing more minutes isn't Fisher magically trusting him more - maybe he's finally healthy enough to play the minutes and play well.

This is the guy I thought we were signing.

I think Rolo's return to form is a big reason why we're doing so well. Obviously it's a ton of different factors, but Rolo is a big one.

Absolutely--Rolo is playing with force--hes imposing his will and trying to score the ball and with good success. This is the play of someone making 13mm--what we saw in the first 20 games was not.

how silly was it to judge a player on his first 20 games instead of the last few years?

so here is what phil is thinking ....
GustavBahler
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1/11/2016  10:41 AM
Knixkik wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:One if the reasons this team went through more than a decade of futilty was the lack of low post defense. We now have not one but two elite rim defenders. This is what you need if you're going to make a legit playoff run. Thats how the Pacers beat us in the playoffs the last time.

If one of them is hurt, we still have someone in the paint who can hold up the fort. Thats a great option to have in an 82 game season and a possible playoff run.

Having elite post defenders is great, but whats even better is we don't sacrifice in any other area to have that. In other words, Porzingis is so versatile that he can play the stretch 4, plus defend a little outside as well. We have adjusted to the modern, small-ball game without actually being small.


We havent had this good a tandem (consistently) in the paint since Ewing/Oakley. The rest is gravy.

newyorker4ever
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1/11/2016  10:48 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
I like the way Lopez has played the last ten games-- probably the best string of games hes had in 3 years. Do we know definitely whether we would be better or worse with Monroe? He wont give you that force Lopez gives(or has now been giving) which is big time. But would Monroe score 18-20 points here and benefit from playing backed up by Porzingis as well?

In what sense? This is just the normal Lopez.

Yeah i was gonna single out that comment as well. Rolo has been a good player for a while now and i wouldn't say that his last 10 games are his best he's had in 3 years and actually think that's a ridiculous thing to say cause he was playing good in Portland.
martin
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1/11/2016  10:50 AM
crzymdups wrote:In Fisher's post game press conference last night he was asked about how Rolo has been playing lately, last 10 games or so... Fisher said something interesting "He probably has more pop in his legs again now."

Remember that mysterious injury Rolo was getting over in training camp? I'm guessing it had to do with his legs somehow and it took him a while to get back to full strength. Maybe he had a knee procedure over the summer or something? The Knicks have kept it quiet before when guys have had surgery - they did it one summer with Shump. I wonder if they didn't want it getting out that their big free agent signing had some kind of knee or leg surgery over the summer? Especially considering his signing was a disappointment to some.

Anyhow, I do think he looks better the past 10 games or so. And maybe him playing more minutes isn't Fisher magically trusting him more - maybe he's finally healthy enough to play the minutes and play well.

This is the guy I thought we were signing.

I think Rolo's return to form is a big reason why we're doing so well. Obviously it's a ton of different factors, but Rolo is a big one.

I have been noting on occasion - since the beginning of the season - that I thought Rolo was injured or not 100%. Thought his put-back cram in the second Atlanta game was with lift he hadn't shown all year. Dude is dunking and moving better out there. The spin moves in the post are becoming more frequent.

Let's hope he keeps this up and builds on it.

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martin
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1/11/2016  10:51 AM
newyorker4ever wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
I like the way Lopez has played the last ten games-- probably the best string of games hes had in 3 years. Do we know definitely whether we would be better or worse with Monroe? He wont give you that force Lopez gives(or has now been giving) which is big time. But would Monroe score 18-20 points here and benefit from playing backed up by Porzingis as well?

In what sense? This is just the normal Lopez.

Yeah i was gonna single out that comment as well. Rolo has been a good player for a while now and i wouldn't say that his last 10 games are his best he's had in 3 years and actually think that's a ridiculous thing to say cause he was playing good in Portland.

I never saw Rolo play in Portland, did they use him in the post much?

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newyorker4ever
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1/11/2016  10:54 AM
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:In Fisher's post game press conference last night he was asked about how Rolo has been playing lately, last 10 games or so... Fisher said something interesting "He probably has more pop in his legs again now."

Remember that mysterious injury Rolo was getting over in training camp? I'm guessing it had to do with his legs somehow and it took him a while to get back to full strength. Maybe he had a knee procedure over the summer or something? The Knicks have kept it quiet before when guys have had surgery - they did it one summer with Shump. I wonder if they didn't want it getting out that their big free agent signing had some kind of knee or leg surgery over the summer? Especially considering his signing was a disappointment to some.

Anyhow, I do think he looks better the past 10 games or so. And maybe him playing more minutes isn't Fisher magically trusting him more - maybe he's finally healthy enough to play the minutes and play well.

This is the guy I thought we were signing.

I think Rolo's return to form is a big reason why we're doing so well. Obviously it's a ton of different factors, but Rolo is a big one.

he's really good. Has some limitations for sure, but really brings tons of goodies to the table. He and KP really make each other better. KP's ability to smother the stretch bigs free's up Rolo to anchor the paint and that combo is really coming into its own. We impact teams with our size and force adjustments. Since Ewing was here it was generally the other way around.

I think one of the big things that goes unnoticed on our team as well is how well these guys seem to get along as a team. It's such a big thing for players to love playing with each other and when a guy like Rolo does the unselfish things like blocking out 2/3 guys so someone else on the team can grab the rebound which he does very well that goes over well with your teammates.
newyorker4ever
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1/11/2016  11:00 AM
martin wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
I like the way Lopez has played the last ten games-- probably the best string of games hes had in 3 years. Do we know definitely whether we would be better or worse with Monroe? He wont give you that force Lopez gives(or has now been giving) which is big time. But would Monroe score 18-20 points here and benefit from playing backed up by Porzingis as well?

In what sense? This is just the normal Lopez.

Yeah i was gonna single out that comment as well. Rolo has been a good player for a while now and i wouldn't say that his last 10 games are his best he's had in 3 years and actually think that's a ridiculous thing to say cause he was playing good in Portland.

I never saw Rolo play in Portland, did they use him in the post much?


2013-14 season avgs of 11.1 points and 8.5 rebounds
2014-15 season avgs of 9.6 points and 6.7 rebounds
So in the two years there he's like a 10 and 7 guy which isn't bad. It's not great but it's not bad.
GustavBahler
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1/11/2016  11:05 AM
martin wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
I like the way Lopez has played the last ten games-- probably the best string of games hes had in 3 years. Do we know definitely whether we would be better or worse with Monroe? He wont give you that force Lopez gives(or has now been giving) which is big time. But would Monroe score 18-20 points here and benefit from playing backed up by Porzingis as well?

In what sense? This is just the normal Lopez.

Yeah i was gonna single out that comment as well. Rolo has been a good player for a while now and i wouldn't say that his last 10 games are his best he's had in 3 years and actually think that's a ridiculous thing to say cause he was playing good in Portland.

I never saw Rolo play in Portland, did they use him in the post much?

Going to repost this article, if you dont mind. This is about Lopez in Portland before he got hurt.

https://m.numberfire.com/nba/news/3021/why-we-should-stop-underrating-robin-lopez


Robin Lopez was a bigger part of the Blazers' success last year than people realize. The numbers show us why.

by Russell Peddle on Sep 3rd, 2014

Why We Should Stop Underrating Robin Lopez


Are we properly appreciating Robin Lopez?

Brook Lopez, Robin’s twin brother, is the All-Star of the family and often stands out as the better basketball player. Brook is a key cog for and arguably the best player on the Brooklyn Nets and scores around 20 points per game for them each season. Robin, on the other hand, has posted modest scoring averages just above 11 points per contest the last two seasons (the only times in his six-year career he’s scored in double-digits) and is considered by many to be the fifth best player on the Portland Trail Blazers, behind LaMarcus Aldridge, Damian Lillard, Nicolas Batum, and Wesley Matthews.

Robin and his big hair have bounced around from Phoenix, to New Orleans, and finally to Portland over the last few years and he could easily be mistaken for a role playing journeyman. A closer look at his numbers, however, suggests that he might be one of the most important centers in the whole Association.

Wipe that incredulous look off your face and take a look.


On Offense

According to Basketball Reference, Robin’s 128.1 offensive rating was the best in the entire NBA last season, beating out guys like Chris Paul and Kevin Durant. Having a better offensive rating doesn’t suggest that Lopez is more offensively gifted than CP3 or KD (don’t be absurd), just that he produced more points per individual possession than they did. Considering Lopez only had a 14.0% usage rate and rarely had the undivided attention of opposing defenses, his path to efficiency was easier, but no less impressive.

Lopez finished seventh in the whole league in field goal percentage (55.1%) and second among centers in free throw percentage (81.8%). That combination of efficient scoring from the field and skill from the line helped him finish eighth in the league in true shooting percentage (weighted twos, threes, and free throws) at 60.5%. He may not have scored a ton of points, but he was a reliable option when called upon on offense.

One of his most important skills on the offensive end for the Blazers, though, was his ability to grab offensive rebounds. He was second in the league in offensive boards per game at 4.0, trailing only Andre Drummond at 5.4. His offensive rebound percentage of 13.6% was fourth in the league, while his 326 total offensive rebounds placed him third. He also scored 278 second-chance points off those offensive boards, the eighth-highest total in the NBA.

On Defense

The Blazers were consistently dismissed as true contenders last season because of their mediocre defense, but Robin Lopez did absolutely all he could on that end to change the narrative. Portland finished 16th in the league with a defensive rating of 104.7 (points allowed per 100 possessions), the third worst among playoff teams behind the Dallas Mavericks and the Brooklyn Nets. They were much better, however, with Lopez on the floor (103.7, which would have finished 13th comparatively) than when he was off (106.6, 24th).

Notably, Lopez’s defensive rebounding numbers didn’t quite match up with the way he crashed the boards on the offensive end, with his 4.6 defensive boards per game representing one of the lowest averages among starting centers in the league. This is somewhat understandable, however, when you consider how much time he had to spend defending the rim for Portland instead of getting into good rebounding position.

The 10.3 shots that Lopez faced at the rim per game last season is tied with DeAndre Jordan for the most in the whole NBA. RoLo not only swatted away 1.7 shots per game (eighth in the Association), but he also held a ridiculously low rim protection rate of 42.5%.

Of all players that faced at least 4 shots within five feet of the basket last year, only Bismack Biyombo (38.8%) and Roy Hibbert (41.4%) fared better. Lopez didn’t get a single All-Defensive Team vote last year - Defensive Player of the Year Joakim Noah and Hibbert were obvious and deserving choices - but perhaps he would've been considered right there with DeAndre Jordan and Andre Drummond as part of the next tier if an All-Defensive Third Team had been selected.

All-Encompassing Numbers

If you look at the list of the top 20 win share totals from last season, you will find 14 NBA All-Stars and five other players that received All-NBA votes at the end of the year. The one outlier in the group, coming in at 19th, was none other than Robin Lopez. In fact, his 9.5 win shares last year was just shy of teammate Damian Lillard’s 9.6 and more than LaMarcus Aldridge’s 7.5.

Lopez played and started in all 82 games for Portland in 2013-14, so that probably gave him a boost in something cumulative like win shares, right? Well, his rate of 0.176 win shares per 48 minutes was actually the best mark of any Blazer last season and placed him once again at 19th overall in the whole NBA.

If win shares is not your “one number” statistic of choice, our own nERD metric was an even bigger RoLo fan. Robin’s nERD of 8.4 - which indicates that a league-average team would finish roughly 8.4 games above .500 with Lopez as a starter - was the best score on the Blazers. What’s more, it ranked him 18th in the whole league and third among centers.

Robin Lopez might not be garnering any All-Star votes anytime soon, but the role he plays for the Portland Trail Blazers on both ends of the floor is crucial to their success. He is a perfect complement to LaMarcus Aldridge up front (the Blazers had a net rating of 8.8 when the two were on the floor together last season) and he brings a number of intangibles to a starting lineup filled with flashy skill sets. If the Blazers hope to repeat their successful run from last season, Robin Lopez will be a big part of it.

We might still be under-appreciating “the other Lopez brother”, but the numbers have clearly taken notice of his value. Perhaps it’s time that we do too.

fishmike
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1/11/2016  11:22 AM
Lopez has limitations. So does Jose. What we are seeing with these guys is their role in the system and it brining out their skills rather than making making their weaknesses glaring.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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1/11/2016  12:49 PM
martin wrote:
crzymdups wrote:In Fisher's post game press conference last night he was asked about how Rolo has been playing lately, last 10 games or so... Fisher said something interesting "He probably has more pop in his legs again now."

Remember that mysterious injury Rolo was getting over in training camp? I'm guessing it had to do with his legs somehow and it took him a while to get back to full strength. Maybe he had a knee procedure over the summer or something? The Knicks have kept it quiet before when guys have had surgery - they did it one summer with Shump. I wonder if they didn't want it getting out that their big free agent signing had some kind of knee or leg surgery over the summer? Especially considering his signing was a disappointment to some.

Anyhow, I do think he looks better the past 10 games or so. And maybe him playing more minutes isn't Fisher magically trusting him more - maybe he's finally healthy enough to play the minutes and play well.

This is the guy I thought we were signing.

I think Rolo's return to form is a big reason why we're doing so well. Obviously it's a ton of different factors, but Rolo is a big one.

I have been noting on occasion - since the beginning of the season - that I thought Rolo was injured or not 100%. Thought his put-back cram in the second Atlanta game was with lift he hadn't shown all year. Dude is dunking and moving better out there. The spin moves in the post are becoming more frequent.

Let's hope he keeps this up and builds on it.

Yeah, he's dunking more than I remember from earlier in the season, and also seems to be getting up higher on blocks. In the Miami game last week, I was shocked at how high he was getting on blocks. I think something was off earlier in the year - he definitely seems to have more hops and mobility now. I think part of it is comfort in his role, but I think part of it is something physical that he's recovered from.

¿ △ ?
Knixkik
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1/11/2016  1:44 PM
Monroe will always put up numbers and have big games. Seems like his effect on his teams (milwaukee went from good to bad since adding him, Detroit improved since letting him go) isn't very positive, but you have to wonder if it's player or the game changing. Zach Randolph has gone to the bench, Philly has been playing better with Okafor coming off the bench too. There are other examples, but the modern game doesn't bode well for high-volume post scorers who are not great defenders. Lopez, while he has a similar body, knows how to get out of the way, doesn't need touches, and obviously impacts the game on the defensive end much better. Seems like if you are a low post player, you also need to be an elite defender, or you're not helpful in today's game. I think coincidentally our team would have been fine with Monroe because we have one of those rare players in KP who can do everything at the PF position and compliment a low-post scorer, but it must be considered that his game may not develop as well if Monroe is here. Generally speaking, i am happy it works out so well for us, and i think Milwaukee would have been better off with Lopez given their roster, but the upside of their group is still very high and they will figure it out in the end.
WaltLongmire
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1/11/2016  1:57 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/11/2016  1:59 PM
crzymdups wrote:In Fisher's post game press conference last night he was asked about how Rolo has been playing lately, last 10 games or so... Fisher said something interesting "He probably has more pop in his legs again now."

Remember that mysterious injury Rolo was getting over in training camp? I'm guessing it had to do with his legs somehow and it took him a while to get back to full strength. Maybe he had a knee procedure over the summer or something? The Knicks have kept it quiet before when guys have had surgery - they did it one summer with Shump. I wonder if they didn't want it getting out that their big free agent signing had some kind of knee or leg surgery over the summer? Especially considering his signing was a disappointment to some.

Anyhow, I do think he looks better the past 10 games or so. And maybe him playing more minutes isn't Fisher magically trusting him more - maybe he's finally healthy enough to play the minutes and play well.

This is the guy I thought we were signing.

I think Rolo's return to form is a big reason why we're doing so well. Obviously it's a ton of different factors, but Rolo is a big one.


Alan Hahn was just talking about the same thing on the radio.

I noticed in a game the other day where they showed O'Quinn helping Lopez sit on the floor after he came out of the game- happened at least twice, I think. Grabbed both hands and served as a counterbalance as he lowered himself to the floor.

Would be nice to find out what the actual problem was, but he seems to be more mobile these days, so I'm not that concerned about the actual issue.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
nixluva
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1/11/2016  2:20 PM
No matter which guy we ended up with they would be put in this system and environment and their role would be molded to what they could bring to the table. Monroe would get the same touches that RoLo has gotten in this offense. The only difference is that RoLo is a superior defender and Monroe he scorer. So there is that trade off between more scoring and more defense.

I think now RoLo is more appreciated for the things he brings to the table. In Portland that team's defense improved dramatically when he came on board. Every team needs a defensive anchor and glue guy. We caught a GREAT break in that KP is also a great defensive big. The 2 together is making this team a terror inside. KP and RoLo are making everyone else that much better defensively. Guys can be really aggressive knowing they have KP and RoLo behind them. The defensive chemistry is really developing as the season has progressed.

Greg Monore is 100X better than Lopez

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