holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Why do you keep going back to the 54 win team from 3 years ago and conveniently forget the aging, capped out, declining 37 win team that Woodson could not coach properly. I'll take a 17 win season if it is the beginning of starting in a new advancing direction. There is no way to know this for sure until this season plays out.

Because the dismantle was well underway the summer after the 54 win season..The 37 win season was a byproduct of Dolan's actions...Woodson could not coach properly but somehow got the best out his players...Amazing...

I'm curious as to your claim regarding the dismantling of the 54 Win team was well underway during that summer.......

The Knicks retained the following core players from the 54 Win Season:

Carmelo Anthony
Tyson Chandler
Raymond Felton
Kenyon Martin
Pablo Prigioni
Iman Shumpert
J.R. Smith
Amar'e Stoudemire

The following non-factor players during 54 win season were either traded or removed from the roster....

Earl Barron
Solomon Jones
Marcus Camby
Quentin Richardson
James White
Ronnie Brewer (traded during 54 win season in February)
Kurt Thomas (waived during 54 win season in April)

Only 3 Players useful from Previous Roster were changed:
Jason Kidd screwed the team by retiring to coach the Nets in Year 1 of a 3 year Deal
Novak was traded as part of the Deal to acquire Bargnani
Copeland who was not a significant contributor during the regular season was a Free Agent who signed a bigger deal in Indy

The Knicks drafted Hardaway and brought in role players such as MWP, Aldrich and Udrih

These moves do not constitute a Roster Dismantle. There were obviously roster Tweaks similar to the ones that almost every NBA team performs every year. Bottom line is that the Woodson won 37 games with basically the same roster structure as the prior year except for Kidd. So the credit for that 54 win team should likely go more to Kidd than Woodson.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/dolan-old-tricks-calling-shakeup-article-1.1470237
With the Brooklyn Nets having won the offseason with several franchise-changing moves and Dolan still bitter about a second-round playoff loss to the Indiana Pacers, the impulsive owner of the Knicks decided it was time for a shakeup.


Grunwald was fired, Mills was hired, the infrastructure in place in the front office was dismantled, Phil Jackson talks in December...Everyone on the planet except maybe you knew Woodson was done...He lost the team...So yeah, you could pretend that all this doesn't matter hang the 37 win season on him, it still more than doubles Fishers first and likely second year...Credit JKIdd with the 54 win and Lin with the 18-6...Woodson's real season was the 37 win season...

I sure wish everyone had a season and a half to show their wares...

OK - so then by your logic the 17 Win Season should not be used as a comparitor since Phil decided to start the Tanking process in December.

They were trying to win...They went 5-32 before Phil decided to clean house in January...The season was already lost...They were on pace to win 13 games...He might have screwed up the tank by actually trying to tank...

So are you saying that in the 37 Win season they were not trying to win?

Note - Sports is not an exact science....therefore Tanking is not an exact science. The guys on the floor are trying to Win. The GM basically (to use your words) dismantled the team in December/January. You made a claim that the 54 Win team was dismantled starting the summer afterwards. It was obviously not dismantled based on the facts I presented above. A change in GM does not mean a team is being dismantled as the guys on the floor are still playing/competing. When the core guys on the roster start to be changed - then dismantling is taking place - it is not really a difficult concept.

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Why do you keep going back to the 54 win team from 3 years ago and conveniently forget the aging, capped out, declining 37 win team that Woodson could not coach properly. I'll take a 17 win season if it is the beginning of starting in a new advancing direction. There is no way to know this for sure until this season plays out.

Because the dismantle was well underway the summer after the 54 win season..The 37 win season was a byproduct of Dolan's actions...Woodson could not coach properly but somehow got the best out his players...Amazing...

I'm curious as to your claim regarding the dismantling of the 54 Win team was well underway during that summer.......

The Knicks retained the following core players from the 54 Win Season:

Carmelo Anthony
Tyson Chandler
Raymond Felton
Kenyon Martin
Pablo Prigioni
Iman Shumpert
J.R. Smith
Amar'e Stoudemire

The following non-factor players during 54 win season were either traded or removed from the roster....

Earl Barron
Solomon Jones
Marcus Camby
Quentin Richardson
James White
Ronnie Brewer (traded during 54 win season in February)
Kurt Thomas (waived during 54 win season in April)

Only 3 Players useful from Previous Roster were changed:
Jason Kidd screwed the team by retiring to coach the Nets in Year 1 of a 3 year Deal
Novak was traded as part of the Deal to acquire Bargnani
Copeland who was not a significant contributor during the regular season was a Free Agent who signed a bigger deal in Indy

The Knicks drafted Hardaway and brought in role players such as MWP, Aldrich and Udrih

These moves do not constitute a Roster Dismantle. There were obviously roster Tweaks similar to the ones that almost every NBA team performs every year. Bottom line is that the Woodson won 37 games with basically the same roster structure as the prior year except for Kidd. So the credit for that 54 win team should likely go more to Kidd than Woodson.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/dolan-old-tricks-calling-shakeup-article-1.1470237
With the Brooklyn Nets having won the offseason with several franchise-changing moves and Dolan still bitter about a second-round playoff loss to the Indiana Pacers, the impulsive owner of the Knicks decided it was time for a shakeup.


Grunwald was fired, Mills was hired, the infrastructure in place in the front office was dismantled, Phil Jackson talks in December...Everyone on the planet except maybe you knew Woodson was done...He lost the team...So yeah, you could pretend that all this doesn't matter hang the 37 win season on him, it still more than doubles Fishers first and likely second year...Credit JKIdd with the 54 win and Lin with the 18-6...Woodson's real season was the 37 win season...

I sure wish everyone had a season and a half to show their wares...

OK - so then by your logic the 17 Win Season should not be used as a comparitor since Phil decided to start the Tanking process in December.

They were trying to win...They went 5-32 before Phil decided to clean house in January...The season was already lost...They were on pace to win 13 games...He might have screwed up the tank by actually trying to tank...

So are you saying that in the 37 Win season they were not trying to win?

Note - Sports is not an exact science....therefore Tanking is not an exact science. The guys on the floor are trying to Win. The GM basically (to use your words) dismantled the team in December/January. You made a claim that the 54 Win team was dismantled starting the summer afterwards. It was obviously not dismantled based on the facts I presented above. A change in GM does not mean a team is being dismantled as the guys on the floor are still playing/competing. When the core guys on the roster start to be changed - then dismantling is taking place - it is not really a difficult concept.

declining 37 win team that Woodson could not coach properly

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Why do you keep going back to the 54 win team from 3 years ago and conveniently forget the aging, capped out, declining 37 win team that Woodson could not coach properly. I'll take a 17 win season if it is the beginning of starting in a new advancing direction. There is no way to know this for sure until this season plays out.

Because the dismantle was well underway the summer after the 54 win season..The 37 win season was a byproduct of Dolan's actions...Woodson could not coach properly but somehow got the best out his players...Amazing...

I'm curious as to your claim regarding the dismantling of the 54 Win team was well underway during that summer.......

The Knicks retained the following core players from the 54 Win Season:

Carmelo Anthony
Tyson Chandler
Raymond Felton
Kenyon Martin
Pablo Prigioni
Iman Shumpert
J.R. Smith
Amar'e Stoudemire

The following non-factor players during 54 win season were either traded or removed from the roster....

Earl Barron
Solomon Jones
Marcus Camby
Quentin Richardson
James White
Ronnie Brewer (traded during 54 win season in February)
Kurt Thomas (waived during 54 win season in April)

Only 3 Players useful from Previous Roster were changed:
Jason Kidd screwed the team by retiring to coach the Nets in Year 1 of a 3 year Deal
Novak was traded as part of the Deal to acquire Bargnani
Copeland who was not a significant contributor during the regular season was a Free Agent who signed a bigger deal in Indy

The Knicks drafted Hardaway and brought in role players such as MWP, Aldrich and Udrih

These moves do not constitute a Roster Dismantle. There were obviously roster Tweaks similar to the ones that almost every NBA team performs every year. Bottom line is that the Woodson won 37 games with basically the same roster structure as the prior year except for Kidd. So the credit for that 54 win team should likely go more to Kidd than Woodson.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/dolan-old-tricks-calling-shakeup-article-1.1470237
With the Brooklyn Nets having won the offseason with several franchise-changing moves and Dolan still bitter about a second-round playoff loss to the Indiana Pacers, the impulsive owner of the Knicks decided it was time for a shakeup.


Grunwald was fired, Mills was hired, the infrastructure in place in the front office was dismantled, Phil Jackson talks in December...Everyone on the planet except maybe you knew Woodson was done...He lost the team...So yeah, you could pretend that all this doesn't matter hang the 37 win season on him, it still more than doubles Fishers first and likely second year...Credit JKIdd with the 54 win and Lin with the 18-6...Woodson's real season was the 37 win season...

I sure wish everyone had a season and a half to show their wares...

OK - so then by your logic the 17 Win Season should not be used as a comparitor since Phil decided to start the Tanking process in December.

They were trying to win...They went 5-32 before Phil decided to clean house in January...The season was already lost...They were on pace to win 13 games...He might have screwed up the tank by actually trying to tank...

So are you saying that in the 37 Win season they were not trying to win?

Note - Sports is not an exact science....therefore Tanking is not an exact science. The guys on the floor are trying to Win. The GM basically (to use your words) dismantled the team in December/January. You made a claim that the 54 Win team was dismantled starting the summer afterwards. It was obviously not dismantled based on the facts I presented above. A change in GM does not mean a team is being dismantled as the guys on the floor are still playing/competing. When the core guys on the roster start to be changed - then dismantling is taking place - it is not really a difficult concept.

declining 37 win team that Woodson could not coach properly

Woodson lost the team at that point..U just admitted that much above...They weren't competing...This was magnified in the way JR and Shump played and in their attitudes..They were outwardly rebelling and arguing with Woodson during games...Remember when JR stopped shooting because Woodson got him for his shot selections??

This what happens when you don't have support of the front office and ownership...Everyone knows your days are numbered...And this is after winning 54 games...

You have to give Woodson lots of credit for being the only grown up in the organization and acting professionally..Everyone knew what was going on...

You keep mentioning December, what happened in December???..And so what if the team is declining???..If a horse gets old, you don't shoot the jockey...

no.

woodson was already compromised before he was hired-- remember? he was hired on condition that he change his agent. this is the "adult" who wanted the job so bad he sacrificed his integrity. that was the moment he lost the team. the end was in the beginning.

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Why do you keep going back to the 54 win team from 3 years ago and conveniently forget the aging, capped out, declining 37 win team that Woodson could not coach properly. I'll take a 17 win season if it is the beginning of starting in a new advancing direction. There is no way to know this for sure until this season plays out.

Because the dismantle was well underway the summer after the 54 win season..The 37 win season was a byproduct of Dolan's actions...Woodson could not coach properly but somehow got the best out his players...Amazing...

I'm curious as to your claim regarding the dismantling of the 54 Win team was well underway during that summer.......

The Knicks retained the following core players from the 54 Win Season:

Carmelo Anthony
Tyson Chandler
Raymond Felton
Kenyon Martin
Pablo Prigioni
Iman Shumpert
J.R. Smith
Amar'e Stoudemire

The following non-factor players during 54 win season were either traded or removed from the roster....

Earl Barron
Solomon Jones
Marcus Camby
Quentin Richardson
James White
Ronnie Brewer (traded during 54 win season in February)
Kurt Thomas (waived during 54 win season in April)

Only 3 Players useful from Previous Roster were changed:
Jason Kidd screwed the team by retiring to coach the Nets in Year 1 of a 3 year Deal
Novak was traded as part of the Deal to acquire Bargnani
Copeland who was not a significant contributor during the regular season was a Free Agent who signed a bigger deal in Indy

The Knicks drafted Hardaway and brought in role players such as MWP, Aldrich and Udrih

These moves do not constitute a Roster Dismantle. There were obviously roster Tweaks similar to the ones that almost every NBA team performs every year. Bottom line is that the Woodson won 37 games with basically the same roster structure as the prior year except for Kidd. So the credit for that 54 win team should likely go more to Kidd than Woodson.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/dolan-old-tricks-calling-shakeup-article-1.1470237
With the Brooklyn Nets having won the offseason with several franchise-changing moves and Dolan still bitter about a second-round playoff loss to the Indiana Pacers, the impulsive owner of the Knicks decided it was time for a shakeup.


Grunwald was fired, Mills was hired, the infrastructure in place in the front office was dismantled, Phil Jackson talks in December...Everyone on the planet except maybe you knew Woodson was done...He lost the team...So yeah, you could pretend that all this doesn't matter hang the 37 win season on him, it still more than doubles Fishers first and likely second year...Credit JKIdd with the 54 win and Lin with the 18-6...Woodson's real season was the 37 win season...

I sure wish everyone had a season and a half to show their wares...

OK - so then by your logic the 17 Win Season should not be used as a comparitor since Phil decided to start the Tanking process in December.

They were trying to win...They went 5-32 before Phil decided to clean house in January...The season was already lost...They were on pace to win 13 games...He might have screwed up the tank by actually trying to tank...

So are you saying that in the 37 Win season they were not trying to win?

Note - Sports is not an exact science....therefore Tanking is not an exact science. The guys on the floor are trying to Win. The GM basically (to use your words) dismantled the team in December/January. You made a claim that the 54 Win team was dismantled starting the summer afterwards. It was obviously not dismantled based on the facts I presented above. A change in GM does not mean a team is being dismantled as the guys on the floor are still playing/competing. When the core guys on the roster start to be changed - then dismantling is taking place - it is not really a difficult concept.

declining 37 win team that Woodson could not coach properly

Woodson lost the team at that point..U just admitted that much above...They weren't competing...This was magnified in the way JR and Shump played and in their attitudes..They were outwardly rebelling and arguing with Woodson during games...Remember when JR stopped shooting because Woodson got him for his shot selections??

This what happens when you don't have support of the front office and ownership...Everyone knows your days are numbered...And this is after winning 54 games...

You have to give Woodson lots of credit for being the only grown up in the organization and acting professionally..Everyone knew what was going on...

You keep mentioning December, what happened in December???..And so what if the team is declining???..If a horse gets old, you don't shoot the jockey...

no.

woodson was already compromised before he was hired-- remember? he was hired on condition that he change his agent. this is the "adult" who wanted the job so bad he sacrificed his integrity. that was the moment he lost the team. the end was in the beginning.

He had the same agent as Larry Brown. No way Dolan was giving that guy another cent and Larry Brown told Woodson he should fire his agent.

doesn't change a damn thing, now does it

All this talk of the past really drags down the mood of what should be a very upbeat fanbase. This team is improved and has a chance for a future with a top 4 pick. Not much to really be negative about unless you're a fan who wanted a big name. Other than that it's a good group of guys and I think the energy is gonna be great this year. We have a lot of guys that are excited to be here. RoLo, Afflalo, O'Quinn all want to be here. KP and Jerian are excited rookies. Seraphin has expressed excitement. LT and LA are glad to be back. We know Gallo, Thanasis and Early are happy. Overall I think this is a group that has a very positive outlook towards being a New York Knick and that's a great starting point for any team.

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Why do you keep going back to the 54 win team from 3 years ago and conveniently forget the aging, capped out, declining 37 win team that Woodson could not coach properly. I'll take a 17 win season if it is the beginning of starting in a new advancing direction. There is no way to know this for sure until this season plays out.

Because the dismantle was well underway the summer after the 54 win season..The 37 win season was a byproduct of Dolan's actions...Woodson could not coach properly but somehow got the best out his players...Amazing...

I'm curious as to your claim regarding the dismantling of the 54 Win team was well underway during that summer.......

The Knicks retained the following core players from the 54 Win Season:

Carmelo Anthony
Tyson Chandler
Raymond Felton
Kenyon Martin
Pablo Prigioni
Iman Shumpert
J.R. Smith
Amar'e Stoudemire

The following non-factor players during 54 win season were either traded or removed from the roster....

Earl Barron
Solomon Jones
Marcus Camby
Quentin Richardson
James White
Ronnie Brewer (traded during 54 win season in February)
Kurt Thomas (waived during 54 win season in April)

Only 3 Players useful from Previous Roster were changed:
Jason Kidd screwed the team by retiring to coach the Nets in Year 1 of a 3 year Deal
Novak was traded as part of the Deal to acquire Bargnani
Copeland who was not a significant contributor during the regular season was a Free Agent who signed a bigger deal in Indy

The Knicks drafted Hardaway and brought in role players such as MWP, Aldrich and Udrih

These moves do not constitute a Roster Dismantle. There were obviously roster Tweaks similar to the ones that almost every NBA team performs every year. Bottom line is that the Woodson won 37 games with basically the same roster structure as the prior year except for Kidd. So the credit for that 54 win team should likely go more to Kidd than Woodson.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/dolan-old-tricks-calling-shakeup-article-1.1470237
With the Brooklyn Nets having won the offseason with several franchise-changing moves and Dolan still bitter about a second-round playoff loss to the Indiana Pacers, the impulsive owner of the Knicks decided it was time for a shakeup.


Grunwald was fired, Mills was hired, the infrastructure in place in the front office was dismantled, Phil Jackson talks in December...Everyone on the planet except maybe you knew Woodson was done...He lost the team...So yeah, you could pretend that all this doesn't matter hang the 37 win season on him, it still more than doubles Fishers first and likely second year...Credit JKIdd with the 54 win and Lin with the 18-6...Woodson's real season was the 37 win season...

I sure wish everyone had a season and a half to show their wares...

OK - so then by your logic the 17 Win Season should not be used as a comparitor since Phil decided to start the Tanking process in December.

They were trying to win...They went 5-32 before Phil decided to clean house in January...The season was already lost...They were on pace to win 13 games...He might have screwed up the tank by actually trying to tank...

So are you saying that in the 37 Win season they were not trying to win?

Note - Sports is not an exact science....therefore Tanking is not an exact science. The guys on the floor are trying to Win. The GM basically (to use your words) dismantled the team in December/January. You made a claim that the 54 Win team was dismantled starting the summer afterwards. It was obviously not dismantled based on the facts I presented above. A change in GM does not mean a team is being dismantled as the guys on the floor are still playing/competing. When the core guys on the roster start to be changed - then dismantling is taking place - it is not really a difficult concept.

declining 37 win team that Woodson could not coach properly

Woodson lost the team at that point..U just admitted that much above...They weren't competing...This was magnified in the way JR and Shump played and in their attitudes..They were outwardly rebelling and arguing with Woodson during games...Remember when JR stopped shooting because Woodson got him for his shot selections??

This what happens when you don't have support of the front office and ownership...Everyone knows your days are numbered...And this is after winning 54 games...

You have to give Woodson lots of credit for being the only grown up in the organization and acting professionally..Everyone knew what was going on...

You keep mentioning December, what happened in December???..And so what if the team is declining???..If a horse gets old, you don't shoot the jockey...

no.

woodson was already compromised before he was hired-- remember? he was hired on condition that he change his agent. this is the "adult" who wanted the job so bad he sacrificed his integrity. that was the moment he lost the team. the end was in the beginning.

He had the same agent as Larry Brown. No way Dolan was giving that guy another cent and Larry Brown told Woodson he should fire his agent.

doesn't change a damn thing, now does it

sure it does. Browns agent screwed Dolan over. Dolan wasn't going to give him anymore money or do business with him. Those things happen in the real world. Woodson was offered a position that any 29 other guys on the planet have. His agents past actions were interfering with his employment. If you are going to criticize guys for firing agents it seems like Jeremy Lin should be on your list. He fired his agent to go with a bigger firm to negotiate his poison pill deal. His actions were all about getting the most money he could. Nothing wrong with that but Grunwald, Morey and other gm's weren't telling him they wouldn't work with the agent he got rid of.

no.

you are now being an apologist for james dolan. i don't think you want people to see you in that light. if you are an apologist then you are a sympathizer and if you are a sympathizer of dolan there must be something very very wrong with you.