CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:Just to illustrate our interactions..Our most recent..Everyone spoke about C Early having a nice game..dk7 offers up that he wasn't efficient..I let it slide..Later he mentions that Early didn't make anyone better..I then told dk7 that Early went 6-9 in that game...And he was second in assist for the entire summer league behind Grant..dk7 BS response was that I didn't understand context..U actually meant he want efficient in the triangle..I'm stunned at this point..

like i said: mark my words, bookmark the posts on cleanthony early and anything else you wish. when i am proven wrong please make sure to rub my face in them and make a fool out of me. i know what i have said over the years and virtually all of it tends to come true....

He said what you said was wrong in the context that you said it.

you both have comprehension difficulties in regard to context and projecting performance. a classic example was the vaunted 54-28 season where i said that the knicks did not look like a legitimate contender to me. the response was basically "a win is a win" and "dk7th is an idiot." i asked the same question over and over: does this team look like a legitimate playoff team? it eventually was proven that they were not-- they were annihilated by the pacers after a real scare by the celts-- despite their 54-28 record. it's not that you win, it's HOW you win that matters... which is the obverse principle to seeing things in context.

cleanthony early offers another example. he's putting up some numbers in summer league that you are all not seeing in the context of playing within the triangle in the regular season.

here is the analogy

54-28 knicks : playoffs :: cleanthony early summer league performance : regular season play within the triangle

you and holfresh please bookmark this post and whatever else and rub my face in it when the time comes... or not. i know what i am talking about.

This is the context I was referring to.

holfresh
Posts: 33950
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Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

7/16/2015 1:07 AM LAST EDITED: 7/16/2015 1:08 AM

Just to illustrate our interactions..Our most recent..Everyone spoke about C Early having a nice game..dk7 offers up that he wasn't efficient..I let it slide..Later he mentions that Early didn't make anyone better..I then told dk7 that Early went 6-9 in that game...And he was second in assist for the entire summer league behind Grant..dk7 BS response was that I didn't understand context..U actually meant he want efficient in the triangle..I'm stunned at this point..

i have already explained my assertions. he was operating, as usual, from a false assumption or inference, and you the tag team partner, seem eager to compound the false inference further.

you both look foolish and desperate.

i will say it again: i do not foresee cleanthony early becoming a good triangle player. do you have a problem with that?

You can predict any second rounder isn't going to make it without seeing him play and you would have a pretty good chance of being right. http://82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm However, predicting the future for a second round pick is different than talking about his summer league play which was the context.

you're talking gibberish. i saw him play. i made an assertion based on seeing him play. you're attempt to do yet another tear-down is sad.

That’s right, this franchise stripped itself of assets to acquire you back in 2011, when you made it clear to Mr. Dolan that you were going to get paid before the coming lockout and would do so in New Jersey and Brooklyn if need be. Poor Donnie Walsh was ordered to surrender everything to Denver except Walt Frazier’s wardrobe.

You could have waited to sign as a free agent for the sake of the franchise’s well-being – and yours by extension. We all want to earn but you did set the consequences in motion and, again, had a chance to escape them last summer. You didn’t. You stayed. Now deal with your decision, grow as a player and as a leader.

That’s the best way to begin recalibrating your enigmatic standing, the most positive advance you can make toward the rest of a career still rich in opportunity. Stop making it all about championship odds that would not be favorable unless you joined a small handful of teams, almost all of whom don’t need or want you.

Papabear Says

Man why don't you give it up! This **** ain't about Anthony. I don't know why you guys see it that way. This mess is about Phil Jackson and his inability to sign stars. It's not about Anthony. Hell he is sipping wine with LeBron and the boys. The game is about the players and the star players. Now in New York its about Phil Jackson and it will be all about Phil and that damn triangle. When Phil played the Triangle he had 3 stars the Knicks only have one. The word that some of the player was that during interviews Phil was arrogant and making it about him and its not about Phil.
I believe that Phil Jackson have no idea about being a GM

Actually it is about Anthony, at least in part. I left the quoted text above as a pointer. Beyond that, we would have had FA's beating down our door had they wanted to play with Melo. And I'm not against Melo. Stars don't come here just because of Phil, he has his rings, Melo has his 2X in 12 attempts past the 2nd round of the playoffs to thank. I know it isn't all on him. There is no sense in signing Aldridge, Monroe, etc. when they are not really defensive players imo and I think Phil agreed their. We have a team that can support Melo's deficiencies and if we make the 7th or 8th seed, we WILL have FA's wanting to come here.

BTW - If you hadn't read, we are opening up the offense, it isn't just about the triangle (you can see this in summer league.) We are planning on pushing the ball on defensive rebounds and in part, that is why we got Grant. We have one star in Melo and just maybe another in KP. Then we have some money and 2016 FA to hope for...

Bonn1997 wrote:

TPercy wrote:Just to throw some facts around Melos Ws48 since he joined the Knicks
157
160
184
172
97
Barring last season they have been really good for the most part..

There's a difference between "really good" and "good enough to have the largest contract on the planet" though.
You also have to consider the projected decline for someone in their 30s in general, and even more so with his overall wear and tear recent and injury.
It's a bad way to use 124 mil IMO even if he's a reasonably good player.

I'm not suggesting that he deserves that huge contract I'm just trying to keep in mind that he I'd not as a negative player as people think bar last season. His elite scoring ability has helped us win games but at the same time grossly hindered the team's chances of getting even better. It. Doesn't matter anyway now. Since we have two cornerstone players from the draft, melody can either play team ball and actually step it up, which would result in us having a winning season and our prospects getting better OR he will eventually be run out of nyk throgh a trade where we would get a decent number of picks in return to help us rebuild.

Uptown wrote:Dude is a journalist, not a realistic fiction writer. How about Araton do his job, get on the plane and ask Phil his thoughts directly instead of reading the mind of Phil like most UK posters do. Only here, do you guys rejoice at the thoughts of journalists about Melo and Phil, and ignore the actual words of Phil and Melo...strange..

Phil started asserting himself and drawing a line in the sand between him an Anthony prior to the draft in press conferences and the NY Times interview.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/MrCarrozza/status/621457227157778433

By admittedly not consulting or even speaking with Carmelo Anthony during a rash of recent free-agent signings for the Knicks, what, exactly, was Phil Jackson trying to tell him?

Perhaps nothing, but given Jackson’s historically — shall we say — eccentric communications skills, more likely something.

Phil was indirectly telling Anthony the same thing he indirectly told him before the draft...we are doing things my way, and the future of the franchise is more important than any single player.

Lots of you guys either don't listen to Phil when he speaks...don't understand what he says...don't apply what he says to what he does...or maybe you just close your eyes and put your hands over your ears and pretend he's not saying anything at all.

Phil rarely come out and attacks Anthony directly, but folks are obtuse if they don't see what he is doing.

He has been taking veiled shots at Anthony since before the draft.

Who were these words really addressed to? Same interview. Does not mention Anthony by name in the first comment, but you clearly have to link the second comment, which mention Anthony by name, to the first one.

JACKSON We’re trying to find players who are the best fit for us. We’re really chasing as much information as we can. We’re not interested in guys who are just interested in the money and in their branding. They have to have a little more to their life than just those selfish desires. There’s nothing wrong with chasing money, and there’s nothing wrong with making the most from your name. But that seems to be the running theme that you see a lot these days.

JACKSON I don’t see any value at all in an All-Star Game. None. I think it was a pretty exciting game this year because of its speed. But as a coach, what’s the point? But when guys have, as part of their contract, shoe things when they make the All-Star team, we try to accommodate what will help them move forward with their lives and their careers. So when we sat down with Carmelo in London and we had dinner with him, we actually pointed to that date as a possible time for him to shut it down.

Then he seems to take issue with Mills regarding Anthony's desire to play in the All-Star game. You can also connect Jackson's All-Star team/shoe contract comment to his skepticism comment.

MILLS To put it all in context, Carmelo was playing with an injury that wasn’t going to get worse. There was no risk to him playing, but it takes a certain amount of time to get it done. So we needed to pick a time when he could get it done. And I can’t speak for Carmelo, but I think he felt like he had an obligation as the face of the New York Knicks with the All-Star Game at Madison Square Garden: “I should be here and play in the All-Star Game.” It wasn’t a risk.

JACKSON The idea of whether it was the right thing to do, I can see where people could look at it and be skeptical. How do you think he played that night? I think he got between the free throw line and the other free throw line. I don’t think he could run very well.

So Anthony doesn't get Winslow, his young protege in the art of branding, who Araton correctly points out is a highly raw kid, who clearly has a long way to go before being the player some compared him to prior to the draft. Phil takes the one player in the draft Anthony did not want him to get, a guy, I might add, who has shown as much maturity in his approach to the game and as much court sense as any rookie in SL.

Anthony also loses Hardaway, his one holdover from the previous regime, further eroding his power base on the team.

Of course Phil did not have to say anything about Anthony's reaction to the draft, Anthony's actions spoke for themselves.

Now, with rumors Anthony was not that happy with our FA haul, there is more trouble brewing, and again, Phil is talking truth. From Isola:

“Obviously Carmelo is a guy that is a premier player, we understand that,” Jackson said on Monday. “But it’s a team game. And it has to fit together.”

The answer was in response to a question about whether Jackson is concerned that Anthony, now 31, may not endorse Jackson’s decision to rebuild slowly and with role players. In a very respectful way, Jackson essentially said, “I don’t give a damn.”

Maybe Araton bringing up the past has also upset some of you, but once again, he is dead on:

(My) suggestion is that you embrace the reality that you not only signed up for, but helped to create.

That’s right, this franchise stripped itself of assets to acquire you back in 2011, when you made it clear to Mr. Dolan that you were going to get paid before the coming lockout and would do so in New Jersey and Brooklyn if need be. Poor Donnie Walsh was ordered to surrender everything to Denver except Walt Frazier’s wardrobe.

You could have waited to sign as a free agent for the sake of the franchise’s well-being — and yours, by extension. We all want to earn, but you did set the consequences in motion and, again, had a chance to escape them last summer. You didn’t. You stayed. Now deal with your decision, grow as a player and as a leader.

Araton's article is one I wish I could have written myself. He is spot on in how he looks at the past and the present.

Hurts for some of you, but it is the truth.

Phil drew a line before the draft, but Anthony has stepped over it, setting into motion who knows what.

Anthony could have showed up at SL like many of his fellow "stars," but has chosen to stay away up until now.

Was watching the Wizards game yesterday...John Wall was in the first row. The announcer made a comment, based on something Wall must have said(and I am paraphrasing, here), that he, Wall, believed coming to SL was important for him in terms of the team's growth and his role as a LEADER on the team.

You only wish that our "star" could have done the same thing and sent a positive message to Phil, Fisher, our young players, and the franchise.

But he didn't...and that is a shame.

Jmpasq wrote:

TPercy wrote:Early is a good triangle player. It seems like it is only you done no can not see it. I've seen him make some really good passes and finishea.coming off of the handoff. Early is definitely someone we should continue to develop.

Of course, but do you believe he will ever be a top 8 rotation player on a good team? I think he is an NBA player, but I'm not sure he is a guaranteed 20 minutes a night player.

As of right now no, but I think he can get there. He has showed big improvements with his handles and has showcased defensive potentialno reason why he can not get there.

earthmansurfer wrote:

nixluva wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

That’s right, this franchise stripped itself of assets to acquire you back in 2011, when you made it clear to Mr. Dolan that you were going to get paid before the coming lockout and would do so in New Jersey and Brooklyn if need be. Poor Donnie Walsh was ordered to surrender everything to Denver except Walt Frazier’s wardrobe.

You could have waited to sign as a free agent for the sake of the franchise’s well-being – and yours by extension. We all want to earn but you did set the consequences in motion and, again, had a chance to escape them last summer. You didn’t. You stayed. Now deal with your decision, grow as a player and as a leader.

That’s the best way to begin recalibrating your enigmatic standing, the most positive advance you can make toward the rest of a career still rich in opportunity. Stop making it all about championship odds that would not be favorable unless you joined a small handful of teams, almost all of whom don’t need or want you.

Papabear Says

Man why don't you give it up! This **** ain't about Anthony. I don't know why you guys see it that way. This mess is about Phil Jackson and his inability to sign stars. It's not about Anthony. Hell he is sipping wine with LeBron and the boys. The game is about the players and the star players. Now in New York its about Phil Jackson and it will be all about Phil and that damn triangle. When Phil played the Triangle he had 3 stars the Knicks only have one. The word that some of the player was that during interviews Phil was arrogant and making it about him and its not about Phil.
I believe that Phil Jackson have no idea about being a GM

Actually it is about Anthony, at least in part. I left the quoted text above as a pointer. Beyond that, we would have had FA's beating down our door had they wanted to play with Melo. And I'm not against Melo. Stars don't come here just because of Phil, he has his rings, Melo has his 2X in 12 attempts past the 2nd round of the playoffs to thank. I know it isn't all on him. There is no sense in signing Aldridge, Monroe, etc. when they are not really defensive players imo and I think Phil agreed their. We have a team that can support Melo's deficiencies and if we make the 7th or 8th seed, we WILL have FA's wanting to come here.

BTW - If you hadn't read, we are opening up the offense, it isn't just about the triangle (you can see this in summer league.) We are planning on pushing the ball on defensive rebounds and in part, that is why we got Grant. We have one star in Melo and just maybe another in KP. Then we have some money and 2016 FA to hope for...

Just so you know pushing the ball was ALWAYS part of the Triangle. It's funny to me how people seem not to remember what a well run Triangle Offense actually looks like. They started running this push the ball and drag screen stuff last year when Shved was here. This isn't new!!!

I got that from this article and was referring to this quote: http://nypost.com/2015/07/15/how-derek-fisher-phil-jackson-are-tweaking-knicks-offense/

What Fisher has figured — and with president Phil Jackson’s blessing — is the triangle needed to be souped up and adapted to the modern-day NBA. Hence, the Knicks summer league team, which is 3-0 entering Thursday’s action, is showing new wrinkles — adding a speed-ball element, used by former Knicks coach Mike D’Antoni. The Knicks open the playoff round at 4:30 p.m. Thursday on MSG against the Warriors.

The idea is to race the ball upcourt to try to get an easy bucket before settling into the cuts of the triangle. More pick and rolls have been added at the beginning of the possession — which is a carryover from last April.

So, the article says since April and I was referring to the speed-ball element.

This was always part of the Triangle. Our players weren't doing it right. It was never intended that the Triangle be a walk it up offense. What really happened is that Shved was actually able to execute what the offense called for at the right speed. Now Jerian is also able to play at the right speed so it looks different as if there was some major change.

Phil Jackson 2008

Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

Jmpasq wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

That’s right, this franchise stripped itself of assets to acquire you back in 2011, when you made it clear to Mr. Dolan that you were going to get paid before the coming lockout and would do so in New Jersey and Brooklyn if need be. Poor Donnie Walsh was ordered to surrender everything to Denver except Walt Frazier’s wardrobe.

You could have waited to sign as a free agent for the sake of the franchise’s well-being – and yours by extension. We all want to earn but you did set the consequences in motion and, again, had a chance to escape them last summer. You didn’t. You stayed. Now deal with your decision, grow as a player and as a leader.

That’s the best way to begin recalibrating your enigmatic standing, the most positive advance you can make toward the rest of a career still rich in opportunity. Stop making it all about championship odds that would not be favorable unless you joined a small handful of teams, almost all of whom don’t need or want you.

Papabear Says

Man why don't you give it up! This **** ain't about Anthony. I don't know why you guys see it that way. This mess is about Phil Jackson and his inability to sign stars. It's not about Anthony. Hell he is sipping wine with LeBron and the boys. The game is about the players and the star players. Now in New York its about Phil Jackson and it will be all about Phil and that damn triangle. When Phil played the Triangle he had 3 stars the Knicks only have one. The word that some of the player was that during interviews Phil was arrogant and making it about him and its not about Phil.
I believe that Phil Jackson have no idea about being a GM

Actually it is about Anthony, at least in part. I left the quoted text above as a pointer. Beyond that, we would have had FA's beating down our door had they wanted to play with Melo. And I'm not against Melo. Stars don't come here just because of Phil, he has his rings, Melo has his 2X in 12 attempts past the 2nd round of the playoffs to thank. I know it isn't all on him. There is no sense in signing Aldridge, Monroe, etc. when they are not really defensive players imo and I think Phil agreed their. We have a team that can support Melo's deficiencies and if we make the 7th or 8th seed, we WILL have FA's wanting to come here.

BTW - If you hadn't read, we are opening up the offense, it isn't just about the triangle (you can see this in summer league.) We are planning on pushing the ball on defensive rebounds and in part, that is why we got Grant. We have one star in Melo and just maybe another in KP. Then we have some money and 2016 FA to hope for...

The teams needs a legit swing player that can defend. The Guards on this team really worry me, especially the 2 guards. Are we really going to pla Langston Galloway 25-30 minutes a night? thas scary

Did you see Galloway's defensive metrics last year? They were insanely good. Now we have another defender to play next to him in Grant AND Affalo AND a center who is a great defender in Lopez AND another very good defender in O'Quinn. So, I think we are really going to see what Galloway can do as he can focus much more since he isn't the only defender. Galloway as an offensive player can relax a bit more now. Hopefully Melo is healthy and Grant and KP and Lopez and company can take the pressure away from Galloway.

I'm excited to see how we play as a team. I'm really interested to see how Melo fits in with this teams construction. I think he will be fine, but it is sort of up to him.

WaltLongmire wrote:

Uptown wrote:Dude is a journalist, not a realistic fiction writer. How about Araton do his job, get on the plane and ask Phil his thoughts directly instead of reading the mind of Phil like most UK posters do. Only here, do you guys rejoice at the thoughts of journalists about Melo and Phil, and ignore the actual words of Phil and Melo...strange..

Article is dead on, my friend.

Phil started asserting himself and drawing a line in the sand between him an Anthony prior to the draft in press conferences and the NY Times interview.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/MrCarrozza/status/621457227157778433

Hahn is commenting on this line from the article:

By admittedly not consulting or even speaking with Carmelo Anthony during a rash of recent free-agent signings for the Knicks, what, exactly, was Phil Jackson trying to tell him?

Perhaps nothing, but given Jackson’s historically — shall we say — eccentric communications skills, more likely something.

Phil was indirectly telling Anthony the same thing he indirectly told him before the draft...we are doing things my way, and the future of the franchise is more important than any single player.

Lots of you guys either don't listen to Phil when he speaks...don't understand what he says...don't apply what he says to what he does...or maybe you just close your eyes and put your hands over your ears and pretend he's not saying anything at all.

Phil rarely come out and attacks Anthony directly, but folks are obtuse if they don't see what he is doing.

He has been taking veiled shots at Anthony since before the draft.

Who were these words really addressed to? Same interview. Does not mention Anthony by name in the first comment, but you clearly have to link the second comment, which mention Anthony by name, to the first one.

JACKSON We’re trying to find players who are the best fit for us. We’re really chasing as much information as we can. We’re not interested in guys who are just interested in the money and in their branding. They have to have a little more to their life than just those selfish desires. There’s nothing wrong with chasing money, and there’s nothing wrong with making the most from your name. But that seems to be the running theme that you see a lot these days.

JACKSON I don’t see any value at all in an All-Star Game. None. I think it was a pretty exciting game this year because of its speed. But as a coach, what’s the point? But when guys have, as part of their contract, shoe things when they make the All-Star team, we try to accommodate what will help them move forward with their lives and their careers. So when we sat down with Carmelo in London and we had dinner with him, we actually pointed to that date as a possible time for him to shut it down.

Then he seems to take issue with Mills regarding Anthony's desire to play in the All-Star game. You can also connect Jackson's All-Star team/shoe contract comment to his skepticism comment.

MILLS To put it all in context, Carmelo was playing with an injury that wasn’t going to get worse. There was no risk to him playing, but it takes a certain amount of time to get it done. So we needed to pick a time when he could get it done. And I can’t speak for Carmelo, but I think he felt like he had an obligation as the face of the New York Knicks with the All-Star Game at Madison Square Garden: “I should be here and play in the All-Star Game.” It wasn’t a risk.

JACKSON The idea of whether it was the right thing to do, I can see where people could look at it and be skeptical. How do you think he played that night? I think he got between the free throw line and the other free throw line. I don’t think he could run very well.

So Anthony doesn't get Winslow, his young protege in the art of branding, who Araton correctly points out is a highly raw kid, who clearly has a long way to go before being the player some compared him to prior to the draft. Phil takes the one player in the draft Anthony did not want him to get, a guy, I might add, who has shown as much maturity in his approach to the game and as much court sense as any rookie in SL.

Anthony also loses Hardaway, his one holdover from the previous regime, further eroding his power base on the team.

Of course Phil did not have to say anything about Anthony's reaction to the draft, Anthony's actions spoke for themselves.

Now, with rumors Anthony was not that happy with our FA haul, there is more trouble brewing, and again, Phil is talking truth. From Isola:

“Obviously Carmelo is a guy that is a premier player, we understand that,” Jackson said on Monday. “But it’s a team game. And it has to fit together.”

The answer was in response to a question about whether Jackson is concerned that Anthony, now 31, may not endorse Jackson’s decision to rebuild slowly and with role players. In a very respectful way, Jackson essentially said, “I don’t give a damn.”

Maybe Araton bringing up the past has also upset some of you, but once again, he is dead on:

(My) suggestion is that you embrace the reality that you not only signed up for, but helped to create.

That’s right, this franchise stripped itself of assets to acquire you back in 2011, when you made it clear to Mr. Dolan that you were going to get paid before the coming lockout and would do so in New Jersey and Brooklyn if need be. Poor Donnie Walsh was ordered to surrender everything to Denver except Walt Frazier’s wardrobe.

You could have waited to sign as a free agent for the sake of the franchise’s well-being — and yours, by extension. We all want to earn, but you did set the consequences in motion and, again, had a chance to escape them last summer. You didn’t. You stayed. Now deal with your decision, grow as a player and as a leader.

Araton's article is one I wish I could have written myself. He is spot on in how he looks at the past and the present.

Hurts for some of you, but it is the truth.

Phil drew a line before the draft, but Anthony has stepped over it, setting into motion who knows what.

Anthony could have showed up at SL like many of his fellow "stars," but has chosen to stay away up until now.

Was watching the Wizards game yesterday...John Wall was in the first row. The announcer made a comment, based on something Wall must have said(and I am paraphrasing, here), that he, Wall, believed coming to SL was important for him in terms of the team's growth and his role as a LEADER on the team.

You only wish that our "star" could have done the same thing and sent a positive message to Phil, Fisher, our young players, and the franchise.

But he didn't...and that is a shame.

Wizzies are my #2 team at this point. Will take me about 5-10 years to bring my kids into the Knicks' orbit. Dolan has made it impossible for me to effectuate indoctrination the usual way. But Jackson gives me hope.

Meanwhile, it will cost be $150/yr to subscribe to NBA subscription for Washington games.