gunsnewing wrote:^agreed TKF but Melo still have value

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I'm anxious to see how people change their tune once Melo leaves or is traded. Always fun

I'd be surprised if Melos still mentioned after he leaves

you mean like Lin?

No where near like Lin

It would depend on how he and his new team are doing and how the knicks are doing without him. Either way, there will be numerous threads at any given time about him. He is polarizing.

I think there may be a couple "told ya so" threads going both ways. However, the thing with Lin is that we had a choice to keep him and let him go. If Melo leaves, it's his choice and there wasn't really much we could've done about it so I don't see much room for "we should've kept Melo" threads like we see with Lin.

"his choice" not really. i don't see melo having much leverage at this point. nobody is going to offer him max money given what they have witnessed in new york. so why should the knicks?

he also said he would be willing to take a discount but jackson is going to persuade him to take a lot less if anthony is genuinely vested in winning this time around. so why should jackson offer anything close to what melo thinks he should get even with a discount?

"melo you got your money the first time around. now it's time to sacrifice for the sake of winning and creating your legacy. we are offering 12-13 million."

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

firefly wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

Ive been on this forum for a while and this Forum is starting to change. For me it's not for the best. Seems every thread wound up being a I hate Melo thread. It's getting worst every day. I started looking at other forums and view what they post. I don't post there. I have tickets for 2 more games this season and I plan to enjoy myself. I don't mind a good debate about the Knicks but when sickos post crazy things over and over about one player. And go to other threads and do the same thing and no one is doing anything about it I start to question the motives of the forum. Maybe I don't belong here because the hate goes beyond the game of basketball. Over and over again and again. We now have a new poster well not new but all of a sudden here he is back again being a poster boy for you know who. This personal hate of Melo needs to be address. I think everyone knows what I'm talking about. I come here for enjoyment but lately every damn thread wounds up being about how much they hate Melo. Melo will be the face of the Knicks for a long long time. I notice that some of the fair minded posters are posting less. Maybe it's time to move on and let them others take over the forum. Maybe! only time will tell.

We've only got another 2 months of it to put up with- the Melo either gets traded or re-signs with us long term (at which point I think the melo haters will quit the boards)

I don't have a problem with people critiquing Melo, but I get a bit bored when it's the same point over and over and over again- it's like being stuck in a rut. At some point you have to accept you've made your case, and move on to another subject

i for one won't stick around if he is resigned to such a high salary that it leaves the knicks no chance to acquire players who will put him in his place. believe it or not melo will be a good player at the right price, which is around 12-13 million per year. but every dollar above 13 million makes him worse and worse. it's always a balance of price versus value. he didn't understand that and of course he had the perfect accomplice in dolan.

that's why phil jackson being here is so important, assuming he has complete autonomy. he is a smart and persuasive man and he has 13 reasons for people to back that up.

sorry if critiquing a player is boring but you see his game has not evolved in areas that are required to win, and his arrival created so much turmoil that the knicks could never get the right players in place to achieve anything substantial.

Didn't you say you were leaving over at realgm if the melo trade went through? My understanding was you stayed until they didn't allow you to be post there any longer.

yeah my love for the knicks outstrips my hatred for carmelo anthony. the good folks at realgm don't understand such nuances-- do you? as i said-- the reason i no longer posted there was because a global mod-- a gaulieiter with a username of "moocow"-- didn't take kindly to the suggestion that he remove carmelo anthony's nuts from his mouth. so it was personal not philosophical. besides that he was one of the most ignorant basketball posters i have ever encountered in a position of authority. everything he said was wrong. everything he predicted was wrong. you can look it up. he was quite stupid really. he occupied that dangerous territory of middling intellect and power, probably around 118-124 IQ i reckon.

my iq is a good deal higher.

anyhoo some people around here like the taste of melo's nuts. i am pretty sure you are not one of them so what is your problem with what i post?

IQ is like education... When you need to remind people of yours it's because it doesn't show.

You got kicked off because your a troll. You and your compadre both

well of course you are wrong again sunny jim-- but hey see if you prefer cozying up to your spiritual brethren moocow and godshamgod on realgm knicks they have nice big couches.

here's a thought experiment: if it is true that i am a troll then why have i not been banned from this forum? are you saying that martin and andrew do not know what they are doing? if they disagree with you-- and apparently they do-- does this mean they are liars or stupid?

seems like everyone you disagree with is a lowlife and a moron.

You dont seem to like it when people infer that you're stupid. Why is that?

It's funny that it drives you so wild. I would think that someone who says such patently dumb things would be used to it by now. Couching it in fancy vocabulary doesn't make you any smarter. Just makes you a moron with just enough sense to buy a dictionary.

To be clear, your opinion on things in general:

If somebody asks you to clarify your position, a position you hold with a thin minority of people, they're stealing from you by wanting you to further elucidate your opinion. It is in fact their job to fresh out your ideas and positions. How dare they request further info. You dont know them!!! Question. How many people on this board do you know personally? Aren't we all stealing from you?

James Dolan is a lowlife. Its on your SIG. Granted Jim Dolan is a shocking owner of a sports team but a lowlife? Do you know his private life? His charitable donations? His family and circle of friends? The way he maybe went out of his way to help an old ladyaccross the street last week? (Could've happened and you wouldnt know either way would you?) But you have ordained him a lowlife.

Steve Mills is a probably lowlife. See above. Really? Ok.

Carmelo Anthony is only worth $10m a year. Putting aside the fact that some would argue all athletes are obscenely Overpaid and there for none of them are worth millions of anything the fact remains that, as many have tried to point out to you, the market sets a players value and the marker for Carmelo Anthony is a Max contract. So rail against that if you will but to claim otherwise is, well, dumb.

I could go on about all the insipid, self-aggrandising things you say but I dont want to tax your considerable IQ. Your ludicrously inflated opinion of yourself only makes it funnier. There are scores of posters on this board alone who have proven over years and even decades that their basketball knowledge dwarfs yours but in your little universe they are as nothing to your monstrous self-evaluation. I bet that when Fishmike didnt respond to you you thought "hah, finally he realises he has met his match. I have decimated his argument and his self esteem and I am the worlds winner" when in fact he just got bored of interacting with such an obvious plonker.

Youre entitled to any opinion you wish to hold. Just dont expect anyone to give them any credence when expressed by such an obvious boor. Especially when your position is "I dont have to explain myself to you. Do you know who I am?!" Troll is a decent description for want of a better word. I bet everyone at work loves you.

Come on, at least admit that he and TKF were the only ones here right about the team this year, and maybe take notes when they talk instead.

A stopped clock is right twice a day as well...And they are not right, their gripe is against Melo, who has been an all NBA player all year...

We're still waiting for your first let alone second though!

It's pointless, I won't waist my time...Their arguments aren't objective...

sure it is... Knicks gave up too much to get carmelo. Carmelo has a losing playoff record, worse among active players.. that is a fact.

he is not an efficient player. He makes max money and doesn't produce max results. His playoff shooting percentage is 41%

Those are facts...

that has been the basis of my argument. He is not a winner, doesn't defend, doesn't pass.... scoring with volume shooting means very little to me as there are a number of players in the league who can score when given 22 shots per game..

that is a lot more objetcive than calling him a top 5 player with as many flaws as he has in his game..

your move..

You all these "inefficient" arguments about Melo, some of them true. Yet you call a player like Alan Iverson one of the greatest players of all time.

Iverson from a stats perspective is as inefficient as it gets. While I respect some of your Melo arguments, it falls apart when you rave about Iverson.

I am sure that DK and Bonn who believe that Melo is flawed would certainly think the same about Iverson and that is fine and I can respect that.

Reg Season: 42.5% FG, 51.8% TS (beyond bad)
Playoffs: 40% FG, 49% TS (beyond bad)

Win Shares look pretty awful too but I am not sure I am sold on win shares.

iverson shot way too much. his usage rate was astronomical. a lot of it i blame on the wake of jordan and the loosening of the rules for palming and traveling. iverson palmed and traveled all the time, giving him the illusion of invincibility. that crossover was sick because it was illegal.

but he averaged a good amount of assists and his assist rate was always close to his usage rate, meaning that what he did to hurt his teams with inefficient scoring he made up some with teamwork.

and he was a good rebounder. tough little son of a gun. i never cared for his game but he was a better teammate than melo.

not just a better teamate but a better player... carmelo gets credit as a great scorer, yet he never averaged 30ppg... iverson eclipsed that at least 4 times. led the league in scoring 4 times, led the league in steals 3 times..took a team with No "running mate" as people like to use that term around here, to the finals.... 3 time all NBA first team player.. he was simply a better player than carmelo..

not my favorite player, as I always didn't like his brand of play, but no one played as hard as that dude did, I can respect that..

30 points a game does not make an argument against inefficiency. To me, this is a big of "flip flopping".

Leading the league is scoring ... see previous comment

Leading the league in steals was a detriment to his team and team defense

3 time all NBA first team does not argue the numbers either.

"simple a better player than carmelo" maybe, but an empty statement

Wages Of Wins will break it down a bit for you (btw, they have gripes about Carmelo too, but so do I)

http://wagesofwins.com/2013/01/15/yeh-points-allen-iverson-what-was-the-question/

Bonn1997 wrote:Note that the win shares and points scored/given up per 100 possessions do paint a much better picture for Iverson that year. They don't make him look like an MVP but do make him look much better than wins produced does.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

firefly wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

Ive been on this forum for a while and this Forum is starting to change. For me it's not for the best. Seems every thread wound up being a I hate Melo thread. It's getting worst every day. I started looking at other forums and view what they post. I don't post there. I have tickets for 2 more games this season and I plan to enjoy myself. I don't mind a good debate about the Knicks but when sickos post crazy things over and over about one player. And go to other threads and do the same thing and no one is doing anything about it I start to question the motives of the forum. Maybe I don't belong here because the hate goes beyond the game of basketball. Over and over again and again. We now have a new poster well not new but all of a sudden here he is back again being a poster boy for you know who. This personal hate of Melo needs to be address. I think everyone knows what I'm talking about. I come here for enjoyment but lately every damn thread wounds up being about how much they hate Melo. Melo will be the face of the Knicks for a long long time. I notice that some of the fair minded posters are posting less. Maybe it's time to move on and let them others take over the forum. Maybe! only time will tell.

We've only got another 2 months of it to put up with- the Melo either gets traded or re-signs with us long term (at which point I think the melo haters will quit the boards)

I don't have a problem with people critiquing Melo, but I get a bit bored when it's the same point over and over and over again- it's like being stuck in a rut. At some point you have to accept you've made your case, and move on to another subject

i for one won't stick around if he is resigned to such a high salary that it leaves the knicks no chance to acquire players who will put him in his place. believe it or not melo will be a good player at the right price, which is around 12-13 million per year. but every dollar above 13 million makes him worse and worse. it's always a balance of price versus value. he didn't understand that and of course he had the perfect accomplice in dolan.

that's why phil jackson being here is so important, assuming he has complete autonomy. he is a smart and persuasive man and he has 13 reasons for people to back that up.

sorry if critiquing a player is boring but you see his game has not evolved in areas that are required to win, and his arrival created so much turmoil that the knicks could never get the right players in place to achieve anything substantial.

Didn't you say you were leaving over at realgm if the melo trade went through? My understanding was you stayed until they didn't allow you to be post there any longer.

yeah my love for the knicks outstrips my hatred for carmelo anthony. the good folks at realgm don't understand such nuances-- do you? as i said-- the reason i no longer posted there was because a global mod-- a gaulieiter with a username of "moocow"-- didn't take kindly to the suggestion that he remove carmelo anthony's nuts from his mouth. so it was personal not philosophical. besides that he was one of the most ignorant basketball posters i have ever encountered in a position of authority. everything he said was wrong. everything he predicted was wrong. you can look it up. he was quite stupid really. he occupied that dangerous territory of middling intellect and power, probably around 118-124 IQ i reckon.

my iq is a good deal higher.

anyhoo some people around here like the taste of melo's nuts. i am pretty sure you are not one of them so what is your problem with what i post?

IQ is like education... When you need to remind people of yours it's because it doesn't show.

You got kicked off because your a troll. You and your compadre both

well of course you are wrong again sunny jim-- but hey see if you prefer cozying up to your spiritual brethren moocow and godshamgod on realgm knicks they have nice big couches.

here's a thought experiment: if it is true that i am a troll then why have i not been banned from this forum? are you saying that martin and andrew do not know what they are doing? if they disagree with you-- and apparently they do-- does this mean they are liars or stupid?

seems like everyone you disagree with is a lowlife and a moron.

You dont seem to like it when people infer that you're stupid. Why is that?

It's funny that it drives you so wild. I would think that someone who says such patently dumb things would be used to it by now. Couching it in fancy vocabulary doesn't make you any smarter. Just makes you a moron with just enough sense to buy a dictionary.

To be clear, your opinion on things in general:

If somebody asks you to clarify your position, a position you hold with a thin minority of people, they're stealing from you by wanting you to further elucidate your opinion. It is in fact their job to fresh out your ideas and positions. How dare they request further info. You dont know them!!! Question. How many people on this board do you know personally? Aren't we all stealing from you?

James Dolan is a lowlife. Its on your SIG. Granted Jim Dolan is a shocking owner of a sports team but a lowlife? Do you know his private life? His charitable donations? His family and circle of friends? The way he maybe went out of his way to help an old ladyaccross the street last week? (Could've happened and you wouldnt know either way would you?) But you have ordained him a lowlife.

Steve Mills is a probably lowlife. See above. Really? Ok.

Carmelo Anthony is only worth $10m a year. Putting aside the fact that some would argue all athletes are obscenely Overpaid and there for none of them are worth millions of anything the fact remains that, as many have tried to point out to you, the market sets a players value and the marker for Carmelo Anthony is a Max contract. So rail against that if you will but to claim otherwise is, well, dumb.

I could go on about all the insipid, self-aggrandising things you say but I dont want to tax your considerable IQ. Your ludicrously inflated opinion of yourself only makes it funnier. There are scores of posters on this board alone who have proven over years and even decades that their basketball knowledge dwarfs yours but in your little universe they are as nothing to your monstrous self-evaluation. I bet that when Fishmike didnt respond to you you thought "hah, finally he realises he has met his match. I have decimated his argument and his self esteem and I am the worlds winner" when in fact he just got bored of interacting with such an obvious plonker.

Youre entitled to any opinion you wish to hold. Just dont expect anyone to give them any credence when expressed by such an obvious boor. Especially when your position is "I dont have to explain myself to you. Do you know who I am?!" Troll is a decent description for want of a better word. I bet everyone at work loves you.

Come on, at least admit that he and TKF were the only ones here right about the team this year, and maybe take notes when they talk instead.

A stopped clock is right twice a day as well...And they are not right, their gripe is against Melo, who has been an all NBA player all year...

We're still waiting for your first let alone second though!

It's pointless, I won't waist my time...Their arguments aren't objective...

sure it is... Knicks gave up too much to get carmelo. Carmelo has a losing playoff record, worse among active players.. that is a fact.

he is not an efficient player. He makes max money and doesn't produce max results. His playoff shooting percentage is 41%

Those are facts...

that has been the basis of my argument. He is not a winner, doesn't defend, doesn't pass.... scoring with volume shooting means very little to me as there are a number of players in the league who can score when given 22 shots per game..

that is a lot more objetcive than calling him a top 5 player with as many flaws as he has in his game..

your move..

You all these "inefficient" arguments about Melo, some of them true. Yet you call a player like Alan Iverson one of the greatest players of all time.

Iverson from a stats perspective is as inefficient as it gets. While I respect some of your Melo arguments, it falls apart when you rave about Iverson.

I am sure that DK and Bonn who believe that Melo is flawed would certainly think the same about Iverson and that is fine and I can respect that.

Reg Season: 42.5% FG, 51.8% TS (beyond bad)
Playoffs: 40% FG, 49% TS (beyond bad)

Win Shares look pretty awful too but I am not sure I am sold on win shares.

iverson shot way too much. his usage rate was astronomical. a lot of it i blame on the wake of jordan and the loosening of the rules for palming and traveling. iverson palmed and traveled all the time, giving him the illusion of invincibility. that crossover was sick because it was illegal.

but he averaged a good amount of assists and his assist rate was always close to his usage rate, meaning that what he did to hurt his teams with inefficient scoring he made up some with teamwork.

and he was a good rebounder. tough little son of a gun. i never cared for his game but he was a better teammate than melo.

not just a better teamate but a better player... carmelo gets credit as a great scorer, yet he never averaged 30ppg... iverson eclipsed that at least 4 times. led the league in scoring 4 times, led the league in steals 3 times..took a team with No "running mate" as people like to use that term around here, to the finals.... 3 time all NBA first team player.. he was simply a better player than carmelo..

not my favorite player, as I always didn't like his brand of play, but no one played as hard as that dude did, I can respect that..

30 points a game does not make an argument against inefficiency. To me, this is a big of "flip flopping".

Leading the league is scoring ... see previous comment

Leading the league in steals was a detriment to his team and team defense

3 time all NBA first team does not argue the numbers either.

"simple a better player than carmelo" maybe, but an empty statement

Wages Of Wins will break it down a bit for you (btw, they have gripes about Carmelo too, but so do I)

http://wagesofwins.com/2013/01/15/yeh-points-allen-iverson-what-was-the-question/

I agree with everything you said except that I don't know what you mean about the steals being a detriment to his team

Clyde on a broadcast recently stated that Iverson gambled way too much and while he racked up the steals, he very much hurt his team defensively.

His argument was that his teammates (clydes) always told him that if you go for the steal you better get it or else your hurt your team. Iverson gambled and lost more often than not and that made him a very overrated defender.

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Iverson was also a more dynamic player

in my opinion (worth a fart in the wind) Iverson was the best little man I ever saw play the NBA game. Tons of heart. Would end every season wrapped in neoprene rubber suits to hold his body together. He drew FTs like Shaq.

If you saw him live he moved at a different speed then everyone else. I dont mean to sound cliche, rather he literally moved faster than every other human on the court.

Deserved the MVP. Great player. HOF player.

Melo is on a HOF track for sure, but is behind Iverson in terms of impact. The East was a much easier conference to advance in, the depth was out west, but you only can play who you can play and AI got it done many times.

You trust your eyes far too much.

Little
Fast
Dynamic
Exciting
Circus Acrobat
Tough SOB

All true. Does not make him an all time great. In many ways, he was the most negative sum player of all time.