martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:look at what you're saying-- the fact that we're even talking 2015 means concession.

no it doesn't, means organization may be trying to upgrade now and also look towards future at same time, nothing more nothing less.

so you believe bargnani is an "upgrade" and i would like to hear your reasons how he is an upgrade.

i'll tell you why he isn't:

1)he doesn't defend.

2)he is below average in terms of efficiency. his best season he shot 56%TS which is just <meh> and his career average is 53.3% which is just plain bad no two ways about it.

3)he is selfish. his usage rate to assist rate (the percentage of time assists are made to teammates while he is on the floor) is an abomination-- 3.4:1, worse even than melo's. what were the complaints last season? the offense stagnated. yet we are expected to see a cohesive offense when he is on the floor or god help us when he and melo are on the floor together. it is unrealistic to believe there will be a better offense especially with woodson as coach of these two.

all the numbers back this up.

when you don't adequately defend, don't score efficiently, and don't know how to share the ball let alone make plays for others it is a recipe for underachievement. not even nash or paul or rondo would be able to make sense of this situation.

stoudemire's year as the main guy-- before being kicked to the curb-- his TS% dropped to a career low 56.5 which is far from elite. felton's scrubby pick and roll game has a lot to do with this but so was stoudemire's asinine one-on-three approach.

melo's career average TS% is a very sub-standard 54.5

bargnani's career average TS% as mentioned is 53.3

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:people want to ignore the fact that Ujiri is the raptors GM and this was essentially his first move, dumping yet another overpaid and inefficient tweener on the knicks.

and got 3 picks out of it.. wow!

The man is brilliant. Kind of casts doubt on the theory that he would have allowed Carmelo to become a free agent without getting anything for him though.

what it shows is that ujiri played on carmelo's "money comes first" approach combined with an all-too-willing trade partner in isaiah dolan.

with bargnani it was a simple matter of preying upon a knicks franchise that increasingly looks like it is making isaiah thomas-like moves.

where there's smoke there's fire.

Interesting. Had nothing to do with the cba, upcoming lockout and two teams losing their franchise players for nothing? Does he make all of his moves based on his players alleged character faults or are they market based and goal oriented?

cba/lockout = melo's "money comes first" approach so you are practicing misdirection here. why bother... you know i am just going to check you.

"denver losing it's franchise player for nothing" implies only one thing virtually to the exclusion of all else: the knicks had absolute leverage in their dealings with denver. in fact so long as walsh was in control of the decision making he had ujiri over a barrel. the reason why ujiri became a genius is because dolan intervened, and with every dolan move there is a whiff of thomas. only dolan could manage to wrest defeat from the jaws of victory.

finally, bargnani is not a franchise player so you're spouting a falsehood here.

ujiri makes his decisions based more on character than dolan or thomas does, yes. so yes, we can infer that ujiri does not have high opinions on either melo or bargnani. character profiling is becoming increasingly important to team building, along with advanced metrics. neither bargnani nor melo are advanced metric players either. dolan is a lowlife and is intimidated by people with character, hence bye-bye walsh.

Bargs was a franchise player. For another franchise. Not Knicks.

Iggy walks, but his salary walks too.

Denver wanted to rebuild and while iggy is a fine player, for the money they are better spending it elsewhere.

Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. I don't think losing iggy was a franchise buster and maybe they felt Affalo was not the end all either. I'd say all franchise's make "mistakes" and "get lucky" so who knows. With new GM, new coach and perhaps a differnt change in direction its unlikley they will win 50 games but they have assets, picks and thats what they want to do.

All in all, its coming up on 3 years since the trade and its high time we all just let it go. Way too much has transpired to line up "Who won-who lost" as the teams have different agendas.

I think both teams got what they wanted. Denver still has Gallo, Wilson, Moz and Andre Miller (felton) and two no. 1 picks. (one swap).

Who won?????

Maybe we should do a poll and put it to bed already.

dk7th wrote:

martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:look at what you're saying-- the fact that we're even talking 2015 means concession.

no it doesn't, means organization may be trying to upgrade now and also look towards future at same time, nothing more nothing less.

so you believe bargnani is an "upgrade" and i would like to hear your reasons how he is an upgrade.

i'll tell you why he isn't:

1)he doesn't defend.

2)he is below average in terms of efficiency. his best season he shot 56%TS which is just <meh> and his career average is 53.3% which is just plain bad no two ways about it.

3)he is selfish. his usage rate to assist rate (the percentage of time assists are made to teammates while he is on the floor) is an abomination-- 3.4:1, worse even than melo's. what were the complaints last season? the offense stagnated. yet we are expected to see a cohesive offense when he is on the floor or god help us when he and melo are on the floor together. it is unrealistic to believe there will be a better offense especially with woodson as coach of these two.

all the numbers back this up.

when you don't adequately defend, don't score efficiently, and don't know how to share the ball let alone make plays for others it is a recipe for underachievement. not even nash or paul or rondo would be able to make sense of this situation.

stoudemire's year as the main guy-- before being kicked to the curb-- his TS% dropped to a career low 56.5 which is far from elite. felton's scrubby pick and roll game has a lot to do with this but so was stoudemire's asinine one-on-three approach.

melo's career average TS% is a very sub-standard 54.5

bargnani's career average TS% as mentioned is 53.3

First, I said that it means the organization may be trying to upgrade, learn to read posts for what they are. Second, you are comparing Bargs to some vague sense of average player or expectations you have; he was traded for Novak and Camby and picks, so please compare him to those 2 guys and what you think their impact would have been for next year.

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:people want to ignore the fact that Ujiri is the raptors GM and this was essentially his first move, dumping yet another overpaid and inefficient tweener on the knicks.

and got 3 picks out of it.. wow!

The man is brilliant. Kind of casts doubt on the theory that he would have allowed Carmelo to become a free agent without getting anything for him though.

what it shows is that ujiri played on carmelo's "money comes first" approach combined with an all-too-willing trade partner in isaiah dolan.

with bargnani it was a simple matter of preying upon a knicks franchise that increasingly looks like it is making isaiah thomas-like moves.

where there's smoke there's fire.

Interesting. Had nothing to do with the cba, upcoming lockout and two teams losing their franchise players for nothing? Does he make all of his moves based on his players alleged character faults or are they market based and goal oriented?

cba/lockout = melo's "money comes first" approach so you are practicing misdirection here. why bother... you know i am just going to check you.

"denver losing it's franchise player for nothing" implies only one thing virtually to the exclusion of all else: the knicks had absolute leverage in their dealings with denver. in fact so long as walsh was in control of the decision making he had ujiri over a barrel. the reason why ujiri became a genius is because dolan intervened, and with every dolan move there is a whiff of thomas. only dolan could manage to wrest defeat from the jaws of victory.

finally, bargnani is not a franchise player so you're spouting a falsehood here.

ujiri makes his decisions based more on character than dolan or thomas does, yes. so yes, we can infer that ujiri does not have high opinions on either melo or bargnani. character profiling is becoming increasingly important to team building, along with advanced metrics. neither bargnani nor melo are advanced metric players either. dolan is a lowlife and is intimidated by people with character, hence bye-bye walsh.

dk7th wrote:

martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:

martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:look at what you're saying-- the fact that we're even talking 2015 means concession.

no it doesn't, means organization may be trying to upgrade now and also look towards future at same time, nothing more nothing less.

so you believe bargnani is an "upgrade" and i would like to hear your reasons how he is an upgrade.

i'll tell you why he isn't:

1)he doesn't defend.

2)he is below average in terms of efficiency. his best season he shot 56%TS which is just <meh> and his career average is 53.3% which is just plain bad no two ways about it.

3)he is selfish. his usage rate to assist rate (the percentage of time assists are made to teammates while he is on the floor) is an abomination-- 3.4:1, worse even than melo's. what were the complaints last season? the offense stagnated. yet we are expected to see a cohesive offense when he is on the floor or god help us when he and melo are on the floor together. it is unrealistic to believe there will be a better offense especially with woodson as coach of these two.

all the numbers back this up.

when you don't adequately defend, don't score efficiently, and don't know how to share the ball let alone make plays for others it is a recipe for underachievement. not even nash or paul or rondo would be able to make sense of this situation.

stoudemire's year as the main guy-- before being kicked to the curb-- his TS% dropped to a career low 56.5 which is far from elite. felton's scrubby pick and roll game has a lot to do with this but so was stoudemire's asinine one-on-three approach.

melo's career average TS% is a very sub-standard 54.5

bargnani's career average TS% as mentioned is 53.3

First, I said that it means the organization may be trying to upgrade, learn to read posts for what they are. Second, you are comparing Bargs to some vague sense of average player or expectations you have; he was traded for Novak and Camby and picks, so please compare him to those 2 guys and what you think their impact would have been for next year.

an upgrade would mean getting further in the playoffs. you have been studying the game for a long time... is that what you see here? a majority of posters here don't see that and most are predicting a lower number of regular season wins. not all but most. meanwhile there's indiana, miami, the bulls, and the nets who "may be better" than us. so where is the upgrade?

the nba is bloated (too many teams) and the talent pool is diluted-- the league TS% average is 53-- that is not vague it is a very clear standard insofar as it represents the average.

i see two overpaid players traded-- one whose specific talent was squandered-- for one overpaid player whose skills are not what the knicks need in order to get better relative to the teams they will be facing in the playoffs.

the best-case scenario is for the knicks is to secure a 3rd seed in the east. the 6th-8th seeds are playoff fodder but watch out if you have to face anything 5th seed and up.

4th and 5th seed is probably chicago and brooklyn if new york is 3rd.

and if/when they reach the second round? can they win more than 2 games? i just don't see it

you keep moving the goal posts, can't even settle on what upgrade means so I find the back and forth pointless.

I think Camby probably is shot and Bargs is clearly better for team than Novak. Upgrade.

martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:

martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:

martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:look at what you're saying-- the fact that we're even talking 2015 means concession.

no it doesn't, means organization may be trying to upgrade now and also look towards future at same time, nothing more nothing less.

so you believe bargnani is an "upgrade" and i would like to hear your reasons how he is an upgrade.

i'll tell you why he isn't:

1)he doesn't defend.

2)he is below average in terms of efficiency. his best season he shot 56%TS which is just <meh> and his career average is 53.3% which is just plain bad no two ways about it.

3)he is selfish. his usage rate to assist rate (the percentage of time assists are made to teammates while he is on the floor) is an abomination-- 3.4:1, worse even than melo's. what were the complaints last season? the offense stagnated. yet we are expected to see a cohesive offense when he is on the floor or god help us when he and melo are on the floor together. it is unrealistic to believe there will be a better offense especially with woodson as coach of these two.

all the numbers back this up.

when you don't adequately defend, don't score efficiently, and don't know how to share the ball let alone make plays for others it is a recipe for underachievement. not even nash or paul or rondo would be able to make sense of this situation.

stoudemire's year as the main guy-- before being kicked to the curb-- his TS% dropped to a career low 56.5 which is far from elite. felton's scrubby pick and roll game has a lot to do with this but so was stoudemire's asinine one-on-three approach.

melo's career average TS% is a very sub-standard 54.5

bargnani's career average TS% as mentioned is 53.3

First, I said that it means the organization may be trying to upgrade, learn to read posts for what they are. Second, you are comparing Bargs to some vague sense of average player or expectations you have; he was traded for Novak and Camby and picks, so please compare him to those 2 guys and what you think their impact would have been for next year.

an upgrade would mean getting further in the playoffs. you have been studying the game for a long time... is that what you see here? a majority of posters here don't see that and most are predicting a lower number of regular season wins. not all but most. meanwhile there's indiana, miami, the bulls, and the nets who "may be better" than us. so where is the upgrade?

the nba is bloated (too many teams) and the talent pool is diluted-- the league TS% average is 53-- that is not vague it is a very clear standard insofar as it represents the average.

i see two overpaid players traded-- one whose specific talent was squandered-- for one overpaid player whose skills are not what the knicks need in order to get better relative to the teams they will be facing in the playoffs.

the best-case scenario is for the knicks is to secure a 3rd seed in the east. the 6th-8th seeds are playoff fodder but watch out if you have to face anything 5th seed and up.

4th and 5th seed is probably chicago and brooklyn if new york is 3rd.

and if/when they reach the second round? can they win more than 2 games? i just don't see it

you keep moving the goal posts, can't even settle on what upgrade means so I find the back and forth pointless.

I think Camby probably is shot and Bargs is clearly better for team than Novak. Upgrade.

what goalposts are being moved? i am not a fan of playing games with people so being told that i am doing so is surprising. if you expect or want to have a dialogue with me then would you mind explaining how i am playing games here?

camby is shot, true. not convinced about bargnani helping the team more than novak. helping the team would mean getting further in the playoffs, wouldn't it?

The picks aren't that huge a deal to me for the fact that we will have MAJOR cap space in 2 seasons so we can recover from that lost draft pick. That first rd pick would mean more to me if we were stuck in cap hell for many yrs to come.

just because you're tall doesn't mean you have to rebound and the knicks don't need bargs to grab 10rpg, they need him to score and they need him to score from the outside, which is what he is good at doing. oh but we gave up a late first rounder (most likely) and a couple second rounders. the angst is pathetic.

Bonn1997 wrote:The idea that some players don't need to rebound is beyond stupid (to use your language). If you're giving up 4 more rebounds than the average PF, that's gonna give the opponent 4 to 5 more PPG. Then when you take into account him being below average in steals and blocks, we're already at around -6. That would be a tough amount of ground to make up for on offense unless you're one of the top 5 or so players in the game.

yea he bargnani though,

bargs should be our starting sf this year, what does this do for the rpg

Bonn1997 wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:The idea that some players don't need to rebound is beyond stupid (to use your language). If you're giving up 4 more rebounds than the average PF, that's gonna give the opponent 4 to 5 more PPG. Then when you take into account him being below average in steals and blocks, we're already at around -6. That would be a tough amount of ground to make up for on offense unless you're one of the top 5 or so players in the game.

yea he bargnani though,

bargs should be our starting sf this year, what does this do for the rpg

It doesn't help much since Melo would be at PF and Bargs probably can't guard SFs.

so he is a worthless player?