2. Harden gets max because teams willing to pay. @ 23 thats the price for a guy who has demonstrated great skill and potential. Linsanity need not have to happen for Rockets to succeed. They are not championship caliber but this might get them to the playoffs. Their core is very young.

3. Now we playing "sunday Nite QB"??? Game management is important and we all are so damn smart AFTER something does not work. What I saw last nite was a Dallas team over matched by a giant defense into making errors and Dallas defense pretty much doing a good job on the Giants. Giants won ugly. Good teams do that. Repeat back to back superbowls are not easy and I doubt this team is such a dynasty type team capable of repeating. Enjoy the run, enjoy the importance of division games. Don't take their excellence for granted.

Nalod wrote:1. Obi Won Ginobli is a facilitator and is amazing without the ball. His cuts and curls around picks gets him free. A pleasure to watch when he does not have the ball. Those fundamental skills got him to the NBA and kept him their.

2. Harden gets max because teams willing to pay. @ 23 thats the price for a guy who has demonstrated great skill and potential. Linsanity need not have to happen for Rockets to succeed. They are not championship caliber but this might get them to the playoffs. Their core is very young.

3. Now we playing "sunday Nite QB"??? Game management is important and we all are so damn smart AFTER something does not work. What I saw last nite was a Dallas team over matched by a giant defense into making errors and Dallas defense pretty much doing a good job on the Giants. Giants won ugly. Good teams do that. Repeat back to back superbowls are not easy and I doubt this team is such a dynasty type team capable of repeating. Enjoy the run, enjoy the importance of division games. Don't take their excellence for granted.

Agree on points 1 and 2 but I disagree on 3. Yesterday's game wasn't the first one where Eli and the rest of the offense hasn't played well. Really, the last game they really showed up was Cleveland. Also, our defense has forced 13 turnovers over the last three games, which is awesome by the way, but I believe the offense hasn't scored any touchdowns off of those turnovers.

I'm not saying, and I don't think anyone else is either, that we're going nowhere or we need to blow it up. It's just concerning what we've seen over the last three games especially with our annual November swoon coming up.

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Solace wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If Harden plays like he did last year, then the Manu analogy is apt and he is definitely a max player. The problem is that was only one season of data.

U confuse me at every step...Harden is a max player??? and I believe u have argued Melo is not a max player...Am I correct??

There was an "if" in front of my statement but otherwise you are correct.

So Harden is better than Melo?

Most likely, yes. I say "most likely" because my claim is based on only two seasons of data from Harden but it's two unambiguously better seasons than what Melo provides. It's still not clear to me that Melo even helps his team win games.

I wonder how Melo would do if he played with Westbrook, Durant, Perkins, Ibaka etc.

Terrible. Only one ball.

LOL! Crush's question is a misguided excuse for MElo ball. Performance is impacted much less than many think by the quality of your teammates. You can be a good, efficient player whether you have great or bad teammates.

Is a Prime Ginobli better than Melo?

by a landslide.

ROTFLOL not saying I disagree I think your response is hilarious. I'd wager to say if you surveyed 30GMs across the league on Harden/Ginobli/Melo at their best it would go...

67.3% Ginobli
30.3% Harden
3.3% Melo

They would show Melo some love

How many wins per season and playoff series wins do you think Ginobli or Harden get if they are the best players on there teams?

It would depend on many factors. We've gone .472 in games Melo has played in. Replace Melo with Harden from last year or Ginobili in his prime and I'd guess it would be somewhere between .520 or maybe .560.

Its possible due to Ginobli or Harden being a better fit for last yrs roster with Amare and Tyson. Melo though has a 591 win % for his yrs in Denver. Ginobli and Harden wouldn't have that with the same squads Melo had in Denver.

I agree; I think it would have been significantly higher. I haven't seen any evidence that he was a major reason for their success. His win shares and wins produced are modest and his teams' winning percentages (both in Denver and NY) in games he's missed have been very good.

18-6 without Lin and Amare gives me a lot of validation on Carmelo's impact to his teams as its best player.

What data do you have that backs up Ginobli and Harden being better then Carmelo as the best players on there teams?

Every sabermetric, although the Ws and Ls provide parallel evidence.
The team had an 18-6 stretch and some are declaring mission accomplished. In the other 67 games Melo has played in as a Knick, the team has gone 25-42.

And yet he has never missed the playoffs in his career and for the first what 8 yrs of his career he has a 591. win % isn't the 8yrs of data worth more then 67 games?

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Solace wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If Harden plays like he did last year, then the Manu analogy is apt and he is definitely a max player. The problem is that was only one season of data.

U confuse me at every step...Harden is a max player??? and I believe u have argued Melo is not a max player...Am I correct??

There was an "if" in front of my statement but otherwise you are correct.

So Harden is better than Melo?

Most likely, yes. I say "most likely" because my claim is based on only two seasons of data from Harden but it's two unambiguously better seasons than what Melo provides. It's still not clear to me that Melo even helps his team win games.

I wonder how Melo would do if he played with Westbrook, Durant, Perkins, Ibaka etc.

Terrible. Only one ball.

LOL! Crush's question is a misguided excuse for MElo ball. Performance is impacted much less than many think by the quality of your teammates. You can be a good, efficient player whether you have great or bad teammates.

Is a Prime Ginobli better than Melo?

by a landslide.

ROTFLOL not saying I disagree I think your response is hilarious. I'd wager to say if you surveyed 30GMs across the league on Harden/Ginobli/Melo at their best it would go...

67.3% Ginobli
30.3% Harden
3.3% Melo

They would show Melo some love

How many wins per season and playoff series wins do you think Ginobli or Harden get if they are the best players on there teams?

It would depend on many factors. We've gone .472 in games Melo has played in. Replace Melo with Harden from last year or Ginobili in his prime and I'd guess it would be somewhere between .520 or maybe .560.

Its possible due to Ginobli or Harden being a better fit for last yrs roster with Amare and Tyson. Melo though has a 591 win % for his yrs in Denver. Ginobli and Harden wouldn't have that with the same squads Melo had in Denver.

I agree; I think it would have been significantly higher. I haven't seen any evidence that he was a major reason for their success. His win shares and wins produced are modest and his teams' winning percentages (both in Denver and NY) in games he's missed have been very good.

18-6 without Lin and Amare gives me a lot of validation on Carmelo's impact to his teams as its best player.

What data do you have that backs up Ginobli and Harden being better then Carmelo as the best players on there teams?

Every sabermetric, although the Ws and Ls provide parallel evidence.
The team had an 18-6 stretch and some are declaring mission accomplished. In the other 67 games Melo has played in as a Knick, the team has gone 25-42.

And yet he has never missed the playoffs in his career and for the first what 8 yrs of his career he has a 591. win % isn't the 8yrs of data worth more then 67 games?

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Solace wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If Harden plays like he did last year, then the Manu analogy is apt and he is definitely a max player. The problem is that was only one season of data.

U confuse me at every step...Harden is a max player??? and I believe u have argued Melo is not a max player...Am I correct??

There was an "if" in front of my statement but otherwise you are correct.

So Harden is better than Melo?

Most likely, yes. I say "most likely" because my claim is based on only two seasons of data from Harden but it's two unambiguously better seasons than what Melo provides. It's still not clear to me that Melo even helps his team win games.

I wonder how Melo would do if he played with Westbrook, Durant, Perkins, Ibaka etc.

Terrible. Only one ball.

LOL! Crush's question is a misguided excuse for MElo ball. Performance is impacted much less than many think by the quality of your teammates. You can be a good, efficient player whether you have great or bad teammates.

Is a Prime Ginobli better than Melo?

by a landslide.

ROTFLOL not saying I disagree I think your response is hilarious. I'd wager to say if you surveyed 30GMs across the league on Harden/Ginobli/Melo at their best it would go...

67.3% Ginobli
30.3% Harden
3.3% Melo

They would show Melo some love

How many wins per season and playoff series wins do you think Ginobli or Harden get if they are the best players on there teams?

It would depend on many factors. We've gone .472 in games Melo has played in. Replace Melo with Harden from last year or Ginobili in his prime and I'd guess it would be somewhere between .520 or maybe .560.

Its possible due to Ginobli or Harden being a better fit for last yrs roster with Amare and Tyson. Melo though has a 591 win % for his yrs in Denver. Ginobli and Harden wouldn't have that with the same squads Melo had in Denver.

I agree; I think it would have been significantly higher. I haven't seen any evidence that he was a major reason for their success. His win shares and wins produced are modest and his teams' winning percentages (both in Denver and NY) in games he's missed have been very good.

18-6 without Lin and Amare gives me a lot of validation on Carmelo's impact to his teams as its best player.

What data do you have that backs up Ginobli and Harden being better then Carmelo as the best players on there teams?

Every sabermetric, although the Ws and Ls provide parallel evidence.
The team had an 18-6 stretch and some are declaring mission accomplished. In the other 67 games Melo has played in as a Knick, the team has gone 25-42.

And yet he has never missed the playoffs in his career and for the first what 8 yrs of his career he has a 591. win % isn't the 8yrs of data worth more then 67 games?

The right data from the first 8 years is yes. His teams are at roughly the same winning % in games he plays in and misses. So citing the winning percentage doesn't achieve anything.

Silly talk, you believe that a couple of games sporatically equates to a whole 82 game season?

newyorknewyork wrote:In your opinion why was Melo so successful and efficient during that 18-6 run compared to what he was doing previously?

That's easy. He was driving and posting much more often than he usually does. It's why a lot of us have been saying he should move to PF permanently and bring Amare off the bench.

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Solace wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If Harden plays like he did last year, then the Manu analogy is apt and he is definitely a max player. The problem is that was only one season of data.

U confuse me at every step...Harden is a max player??? and I believe u have argued Melo is not a max player...Am I correct??

There was an "if" in front of my statement but otherwise you are correct.

So Harden is better than Melo?

Most likely, yes. I say "most likely" because my claim is based on only two seasons of data from Harden but it's two unambiguously better seasons than what Melo provides. It's still not clear to me that Melo even helps his team win games.

I wonder how Melo would do if he played with Westbrook, Durant, Perkins, Ibaka etc.

Terrible. Only one ball.

LOL! Crush's question is a misguided excuse for MElo ball. Performance is impacted much less than many think by the quality of your teammates. You can be a good, efficient player whether you have great or bad teammates.

Is a Prime Ginobli better than Melo?

by a landslide.

ROTFLOL not saying I disagree I think your response is hilarious. I'd wager to say if you surveyed 30GMs across the league on Harden/Ginobli/Melo at their best it would go...

67.3% Ginobli
30.3% Harden
3.3% Melo

They would show Melo some love

How many wins per season and playoff series wins do you think Ginobli or Harden get if they are the best players on there teams?

It would depend on many factors. We've gone .472 in games Melo has played in. Replace Melo with Harden from last year or Ginobili in his prime and I'd guess it would be somewhere between .520 or maybe .560.

Its possible due to Ginobli or Harden being a better fit for last yrs roster with Amare and Tyson. Melo though has a 591 win % for his yrs in Denver. Ginobli and Harden wouldn't have that with the same squads Melo had in Denver.

I agree; I think it would have been significantly higher. I haven't seen any evidence that he was a major reason for their success. His win shares and wins produced are modest and his teams' winning percentages (both in Denver and NY) in games he's missed have been very good.

18-6 without Lin and Amare gives me a lot of validation on Carmelo's impact to his teams as its best player.

What data do you have that backs up Ginobli and Harden being better then Carmelo as the best players on there teams?

with 9 years under his belt of not getting it done, you hang onto that.... it really is meaningless in the big picture.... the key is to win a championship and without amare and lin, he was 0-3 in the playoffs.... is that any validation? or are you going to use the excuse that he didn't have help? if that is the case, then please don't use the 18-6 to hype up a guy who has been a colossal playoff failure for 9 years+ in this league..

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Solace wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If Harden plays like he did last year, then the Manu analogy is apt and he is definitely a max player. The problem is that was only one season of data.

U confuse me at every step...Harden is a max player??? and I believe u have argued Melo is not a max player...Am I correct??

There was an "if" in front of my statement but otherwise you are correct.

So Harden is better than Melo?

Most likely, yes. I say "most likely" because my claim is based on only two seasons of data from Harden but it's two unambiguously better seasons than what Melo provides. It's still not clear to me that Melo even helps his team win games.

I wonder how Melo would do if he played with Westbrook, Durant, Perkins, Ibaka etc.

Terrible. Only one ball.

LOL! Crush's question is a misguided excuse for MElo ball. Performance is impacted much less than many think by the quality of your teammates. You can be a good, efficient player whether you have great or bad teammates.

Is a Prime Ginobli better than Melo?

by a landslide.

ROTFLOL not saying I disagree I think your response is hilarious. I'd wager to say if you surveyed 30GMs across the league on Harden/Ginobli/Melo at their best it would go...

67.3% Ginobli
30.3% Harden
3.3% Melo

They would show Melo some love

How many wins per season and playoff series wins do you think Ginobli or Harden get if they are the best players on there teams?

It would depend on many factors. We've gone .472 in games Melo has played in. Replace Melo with Harden from last year or Ginobili in his prime and I'd guess it would be somewhere between .520 or maybe .560.

Its possible due to Ginobli or Harden being a better fit for last yrs roster with Amare and Tyson. Melo though has a 591 win % for his yrs in Denver. Ginobli and Harden wouldn't have that with the same squads Melo had in Denver.

I agree; I think it would have been significantly higher. I haven't seen any evidence that he was a major reason for their success. His win shares and wins produced are modest and his teams' winning percentages (both in Denver and NY) in games he's missed have been very good.

18-6 without Lin and Amare gives me a lot of validation on Carmelo's impact to his teams as its best player.

What data do you have that backs up Ginobli and Harden being better then Carmelo as the best players on there teams?

with 9 years under his belt of not getting it done, you hang onto that.... it really is meaningless in the big picture.... the key is to win a championship and without amare and lin, he was 0-3 in the playoffs.... is that any validation? or are you going to use the excuse that he didn't have help? if that is the case, then please don't use the 18-6 to hype up a guy who has been a colossal playoff failure for 9 years+ in this league..

He didn't play on any championship calibre teams, it takes a strong team to win a championship. You bashing his playoff record means even less as there are many players who didn't do much in the playoffs until they went on to other teams or got better support. I don't need to hang on to 18-6 as he has a 591 win % in Denver and has been to the playoffs every yr of his career, and been to the WCF as the teams best player.

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Solace wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If Harden plays like he did last year, then the Manu analogy is apt and he is definitely a max player. The problem is that was only one season of data.

U confuse me at every step...Harden is a max player??? and I believe u have argued Melo is not a max player...Am I correct??

There was an "if" in front of my statement but otherwise you are correct.

So Harden is better than Melo?

Most likely, yes. I say "most likely" because my claim is based on only two seasons of data from Harden but it's two unambiguously better seasons than what Melo provides. It's still not clear to me that Melo even helps his team win games.

I wonder how Melo would do if he played with Westbrook, Durant, Perkins, Ibaka etc.

Terrible. Only one ball.

LOL! Crush's question is a misguided excuse for MElo ball. Performance is impacted much less than many think by the quality of your teammates. You can be a good, efficient player whether you have great or bad teammates.

Is a Prime Ginobli better than Melo?

by a landslide.

ROTFLOL not saying I disagree I think your response is hilarious. I'd wager to say if you surveyed 30GMs across the league on Harden/Ginobli/Melo at their best it would go...

67.3% Ginobli
30.3% Harden
3.3% Melo

They would show Melo some love

How many wins per season and playoff series wins do you think Ginobli or Harden get if they are the best players on there teams?

It would depend on many factors. We've gone .472 in games Melo has played in. Replace Melo with Harden from last year or Ginobili in his prime and I'd guess it would be somewhere between .520 or maybe .560.

Its possible due to Ginobli or Harden being a better fit for last yrs roster with Amare and Tyson. Melo though has a 591 win % for his yrs in Denver. Ginobli and Harden wouldn't have that with the same squads Melo had in Denver.

I agree; I think it would have been significantly higher. I haven't seen any evidence that he was a major reason for their success. His win shares and wins produced are modest and his teams' winning percentages (both in Denver and NY) in games he's missed have been very good.

18-6 without Lin and Amare gives me a lot of validation on Carmelo's impact to his teams as its best player.

What data do you have that backs up Ginobli and Harden being better then Carmelo as the best players on there teams?

with 9 years under his belt of not getting it done, you hang onto that.... it really is meaningless in the big picture.... the key is to win a championship and without amare and lin, he was 0-3 in the playoffs.... is that any validation? or are you going to use the excuse that he didn't have help? if that is the case, then please don't use the 18-6 to hype up a guy who has been a colossal playoff failure for 9 years+ in this league..

He didn't play on any championship calibre teams, it takes a strong team to win a championship. You bashing his playoff record means even less as there are many players who didn't do much in the playoffs until they went on to other teams or got better support. I don't need to hang on to 18-6 as he has a 591 win % in Denver and has been to the playoffs every yr of his career, and been to the WCF as the teams best player.

so let me ask, do you think this is a championship caliber team?

and been to the WCF as the teams best player.

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Solace wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If Harden plays like he did last year, then the Manu analogy is apt and he is definitely a max player. The problem is that was only one season of data.

U confuse me at every step...Harden is a max player??? and I believe u have argued Melo is not a max player...Am I correct??

There was an "if" in front of my statement but otherwise you are correct.

So Harden is better than Melo?

Most likely, yes. I say "most likely" because my claim is based on only two seasons of data from Harden but it's two unambiguously better seasons than what Melo provides. It's still not clear to me that Melo even helps his team win games.

I wonder how Melo would do if he played with Westbrook, Durant, Perkins, Ibaka etc.

Terrible. Only one ball.

LOL! Crush's question is a misguided excuse for MElo ball. Performance is impacted much less than many think by the quality of your teammates. You can be a good, efficient player whether you have great or bad teammates.

Is a Prime Ginobli better than Melo?

by a landslide.

ROTFLOL not saying I disagree I think your response is hilarious. I'd wager to say if you surveyed 30GMs across the league on Harden/Ginobli/Melo at their best it would go...

67.3% Ginobli
30.3% Harden
3.3% Melo

They would show Melo some love

How many wins per season and playoff series wins do you think Ginobli or Harden get if they are the best players on there teams?

It would depend on many factors. We've gone .472 in games Melo has played in. Replace Melo with Harden from last year or Ginobili in his prime and I'd guess it would be somewhere between .520 or maybe .560.

Its possible due to Ginobli or Harden being a better fit for last yrs roster with Amare and Tyson. Melo though has a 591 win % for his yrs in Denver. Ginobli and Harden wouldn't have that with the same squads Melo had in Denver.

I agree; I think it would have been significantly higher. I haven't seen any evidence that he was a major reason for their success. His win shares and wins produced are modest and his teams' winning percentages (both in Denver and NY) in games he's missed have been very good.

18-6 without Lin and Amare gives me a lot of validation on Carmelo's impact to his teams as its best player.

What data do you have that backs up Ginobli and Harden being better then Carmelo as the best players on there teams?

with 9 years under his belt of not getting it done, you hang onto that.... it really is meaningless in the big picture.... the key is to win a championship and without amare and lin, he was 0-3 in the playoffs.... is that any validation? or are you going to use the excuse that he didn't have help? if that is the case, then please don't use the 18-6 to hype up a guy who has been a colossal playoff failure for 9 years+ in this league..

He didn't play on any championship calibre teams, it takes a strong team to win a championship. You bashing his playoff record means even less as there are many players who didn't do much in the playoffs until they went on to other teams or got better support. I don't need to hang on to 18-6 as he has a 591 win % in Denver and has been to the playoffs every yr of his career, and been to the WCF as the teams best player.

so let me ask, do you think this is a championship caliber team?

and been to the WCF as the teams best player.

some could argue that could have been billups..

No because its 3 best players don't compliment each other. Either Tyson or Amare have to be off the court in order for the spacing to work offensively.

Billups was past prime, the #1 option to stop was Melo, reguardless Billups was the leader.

ok, fair enough..