Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

The stats are right in front of you to prove that Melo is actually a good passer. Lin A/TO ratio is 1.71 as a point guard. From the Small Forward position you have a guy with 200 assist with a A/TO ratio of 1.39. That's if you wanna use that as a basis for good passing which to me is a bit misleading.

That's misleading but ignoring turnovers altogether (your approach) isn't? You need to go with the best available stat, which is assist to turnover ratio, since it includes both good and bad passes OR find a better stat like assists to passing turnovers. Providing a worse stat (just assists) doesn't improve our analysis.

Does Melo make bad passes in games that you watch?

Yes, he makes almost as many bad as good passes. You are also being quite generous by evaluating Melo based on a career year rather than his career average. The high assist numbers are almost entirely from the time under MDA.

Seriously, Is Andre Andre Iguodala a better passer than Steve Nash, Kidd and Rose?

Kidd and Nash have better career A/TO ratios than Miller. Miller probably is a slightly better passer than Rose.

Is Andre Andre Iguodala a better passer than Steve Nash, Kidd and Rose??

See sentence immediately above your reply

What does Andre Miller have to do with Andre Iguodala?

My bad. I didn't realize your post was about Andre Andre Iguoudala. No way. His career A/TO ratio is not even close to those guys'.

So then he was just a better passer last year?

What's next? A month by month analysis? I'd never look at one year in isolation for a veteran.

You said that ast/to ratio is good as any to judge how good of a passer a player is. Iggy had a better ast/to ratio than Nash, Kidd and Rose last year but it doesn't count since their career ast/to ratios are better?

They can but it's rare for a dramatic change to occur in an 8 year veteran. It's definitely not common enough to justify throwing out the data from 7 of the 8 years of a players career. Regression to the mean is much more common than a dramatic change after the 8th year.

Mugsey Bogues is the all time leader in assist to turnover ratio and played for 15 seasons. Does this make him the best passer in NBA history?

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

The stats are right in front of you to prove that Melo is actually a good passer. Lin A/TO ratio is 1.71 as a point guard. From the Small Forward position you have a guy with 200 assist with a A/TO ratio of 1.39. That's if you wanna use that as a basis for good passing which to me is a bit misleading.

That's misleading but ignoring turnovers altogether (your approach) isn't? You need to go with the best available stat, which is assist to turnover ratio, since it includes both good and bad passes OR find a better stat like assists to passing turnovers. Providing a worse stat (just assists) doesn't improve our analysis.

Does Melo make bad passes in games that you watch?

Yes, he makes almost as many bad as good passes. You are also being quite generous by evaluating Melo based on a career year rather than his career average. The high assist numbers are almost entirely from the time under MDA.

Seriously, Is Andre Andre Iguodala a better passer than Steve Nash, Kidd and Rose?

Kidd and Nash have better career A/TO ratios than Miller. Miller probably is a slightly better passer than Rose.

Is Andre Andre Iguodala a better passer than Steve Nash, Kidd and Rose??

See sentence immediately above your reply

What does Andre Miller have to do with Andre Iguodala?

My bad. I didn't realize your post was about Andre Andre Iguoudala. No way. His career A/TO ratio is not even close to those guys'.

So then he was just a better passer last year?

What's next? A month by month analysis? I'd never look at one year in isolation for a veteran.

You said that ast/to ratio is good as any to judge how good of a passer a player is. Iggy had a better ast/to ratio than Nash, Kidd and Rose last year but it doesn't count since their career ast/to ratios are better?

They can but it's rare for a dramatic change to occur in an 8 year veteran. It's definitely not common enough to justify throwing out the data from 7 of the 8 years of a players career. Regression to the mean is much more common than a dramatic change after the 8th year.

Mugsey Bogues is the all time leader in assist to turnover ratio and played for 15 seasons. Does this make him the best passer in NBA history?

KnicksFE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:None of this other crap matters. What matters is that Melo has to get it right this time. He doesn't have MDA around to blame. He doesn't have Lin to blame for not getting enough touches in the post. Now it's all on Melo!!! This year it's all about Melo and how he approaches this season. He has run out of excuses. He's got 3 PG's 2 of whom are pass 1st almost never looking to score. Melo should be in GREAT shape coming into the season so that shouldn't be an issue. It's all laid out in front of Melo.

So if Melo succeeds deos it validate the excuses brought up the past yr?

MDA relied on spacing and strong pg play and we didn't have neither for majority of the season. I don't blame MDA or Melo for it not working the pieces to the puzzle didn't match. If Smith and Fields shot 40% from 3 and Davis or Bibby was 8yrs younger then MDA would probably still be with the knicks and we wouldn't have had the problems we had last season.

Melo would have been able to save MDA's job unless he turned into Magic Johnson with the assist & Larry Bird at the 3pt line.

I disagree with this; I don’t see how a great offensive player could not work with a great offensive coach. Look at Melo’s stats after he got traded to the Knicks in 27 games (26ppg with 3apg and 6.7rpg on 46fg %). He even averaged 26ppg with 5apg and 10rpg in the playoffs against the Celtics and if I remember correctly, Toney Douglas was still our point guard and MDA was still our coach, so system was not the problem.

Honestly, I feel that for some reason unknown to the fans, Melo didn’t want to commit to MDA anymore, and when your best player does that in the NBA, coaches usually resign or they get fired (like Stan Van Gundy in Orlnado). Please know that I’m not knocking Melo or anything for this, I’m just expressing what I felt happened according to my own analytical view of the games.

Yet we got swept by the Celtics and Melo had to play like superman in order for it to even be close. I think its better for MDA when the PG and pick and roll big are the 2 best players on the team. If MDA featured Melo as his pick and roll SF/PF and had bigs that could shoot around him with a quality PG to run the pick and roll with then I think they would have had much better success. Or if MDA ran the pick and roll through Melo and Amare more.

Case in point. In Jan. Melo avg'd 23.3ppg on 21 Shots a game and 4.6 Assists. The problem was that he was shooting a horrendous 39% and 31% from 3pt range. There is really no excuse for shooting that poorly. You can't blame anyone else when you're the one taking the shots. Melo still stunk in Feb and Mar tho he took fewer shots per game. So basically Melo started to pull back his overall effort while at the same time still shooting horrendous %'s. There was the injury excuse and other such things, but really before he ever had any kind of so called injury, he was shooting just as bad if not worse when he was fully healthy.

IMO I think the biggest issue was his mental attitude towards his role. Much of a pro athletes effectiveness is mental. If a player isn't happy it can effect his game greatly. As we saw later on the very day MDA resigned all of a sudden there was a miraculous explosion of effort from Melo. All of a sudden his on court demeanor improved and he was busting his hump all over the court. Some want to only reflect on how Melo closed the season, but totally skip over how poorly Melo played the BULK of the season.

Unlike STAT and Tyson who NEED a PG to thrive Melo's game is not dependent on a good PG. It doesn't matter who passes him the ball because once he gets it he's going to go into his ISO mode and create his own shot anyway. Therefore Melo doesn't have an excuse or cover for why he shot such a horrid % most of the year. For an ISO player it's really all on him. Case in point is that when he started going off late in the year it wasn't due to some great PG that we acquired. He just started making his shots!!! Assisted or not Melo simply shot better from everywhere on the court. In April Melo shot 49.5% and 46% from 3pt range!!!! Compare that to what he shot for MOST of the year. Remember he was taking 21.1 shots a game and 39%/31% in Jan. then 23 shots per on 49.5%/46%. That's a huge improvement on almost the same number of mostly unassisted shots.

yellowboy90 wrote:So called injury. Hilarius. You cats trip me out with this. Only Melo injuries are not real. Tyson is horrible in the playoffs but it is ok because he had a so called cold. Groin and wrist injuries were all fake. HE missed shot on purpose because he hated a coach that loved him and tried to show him the life and they way to really play championship b-ball.

Nothing you just wrote addresses the stats I presented which cover an extended period of time. It's one thing if you have a bad week or two or a month, but Melo sucked for MONTHS. Go ahead and disprove this if you can, but you can't. The record is there for all to see. If Melo were a player that was dependent upon having a good PG there would be more of an excuse for his bad performance, but unlike STAT, Tyson, Novak or Fields Melo doesn't score off of assisted plays, but rather off his own created shots. So his poor performance is all his own. That's what my post was keying in on. If he had the right attitude about the privilege he had to be the MAN on this team in more than just scoring he could've done better and helped his teammates do better. You can't refute this with any reasonable argument.

(thank you yellowboy)

Case in point. In Jan. Melo avg'd 23.3ppg on 21 Shots a game and 4.6 Assists. The problem was that he was shooting a horrendous 39% and 31% from 3pt range. There is really no excuse for shooting that poorly. You can't blame anyone else when you're the one taking the shots. Melo still stunk in Feb and Mar tho he took fewer shots per game. So basically Melo started to pull back his overall effort while at the same time still shooting horrendous %'s.

Nope nixluva, dude played injured. Carmelo was probably less than 85 per cent but that's another story. The early season injuries were well documented. Nobody misses shots on purpose. Even with a sucky frame of mind.

There is no way of getting INSIDE Carmelo's head unless you are a Vulcan.

nixluva wrote:You guys just NEVER seem to understand nuance. I'm not saying that Melo INTENTIONALLY missed shots. Don't be silly. What i'm saying is that he stunk ALL YEAR before he finally got it going at the end of the season because he had the wrong mental approach to what he was being asked to do. Melo talks a good game to the press, but his actions show a different story. He knows what to say so that he seems like he's really into a given situation and giving it his all, but he gives it away with his actions and eventually his real attitude slips out in comments after things don't work out.

Basically Melo is a phony IMO. He was shooting poorly before he got injured and after he came back. Dude stunk for much of the year. As for his numbers being great playing with pass 1st PG's, last year 71% of his shots were jumpers and only 37% of those were assisted, so that means that most of his shots were coming off ISO plays. When he finally had a PG that could set him up for easy scores his numbers didn't improve and in fact the team went 2-8 and the coach quit. Melo didn't start hitting for his extremely high %'s last year until March 28th that he started to consistently shoot for a high % and that continued thru April. Those FG%'s seem unlikely to be sustained given the type of shots he takes. He's never been able to shoot for that high a % for an entire season and that's understandable given the kind of attention he gets from defenses. The guy lives off contested jumpers. If he was a catch and shoot guy then I could see a PG really making a difference for him, but he's not.

agreed, Melo doesn't want to adjust to the teams strengths, he wants the team to adjust to his ability to score the basketball.
But his Iso heavey at SF, doesn't allow him to post up with good position.
Instead, it is consist of mainly jab, jab, shoot, or pull up on CONTESTED jump shots, 1/6 times he will take it to the hoop, and will miss 50% of those layups because of the help defense.
When he makes them, he looks great, but when he misses, the position allows to defense to initiate a fast break.
Players cannot cut because they fear they are taking away Melo's ability to take it all the way to the hoop.
This is why Amare/Tyson does not do well with Melo, especially with Fields inability to spread the floor.
The team cannot find success with Melo doing this, but he insist on playing this way because Melo feels it is in the best of HIS interest.
Who was Amare talking about in the first half the season with comments like, "We have to play within the system, it works, we just have to buy in to it"?

This is why I am pushing for Melo to play more PF, because the mismatch allows Melo to be able to penetrate or post up more, depending on how teams adjust to him.
When he plays SF, it will result in contest jumpers for majority of the plays because Amare/Tyson do not draw their defenders and space the floor for Melo to drive.

This worked in Denver with Martin/Nene because they both had advantages with their mid range shot, their mobility, and their ability to post up their man, but Tyson/Amare are not the same players as Martin/Nene.

I am rooting for Melo and the Knicks to succeed, because in the end, I want the best chances for Knicks to win a ring, but we have to adjust.
Our starting lineup/finishing lineup if it is still the same, and Amare/Tyson does not improve their spacing/ability to post up, we will not be as good as many of the fans here think.
It sounds good on paper but will not work for majority of the better playoff caliber teams.

crzymdups wrote:

RonRon wrote:

nixluva wrote:You guys just NEVER seem to understand nuance. I'm not saying that Melo INTENTIONALLY missed shots. Don't be silly. What i'm saying is that he stunk ALL YEAR before he finally got it going at the end of the season because he had the wrong mental approach to what he was being asked to do. Melo talks a good game to the press, but his actions show a different story. He knows what to say so that he seems like he's really into a given situation and giving it his all, but he gives it away with his actions and eventually his real attitude slips out in comments after things don't work out.

Basically Melo is a phony IMO. He was shooting poorly before he got injured and after he came back. Dude stunk for much of the year. As for his numbers being great playing with pass 1st PG's, last year 71% of his shots were jumpers and only 37% of those were assisted, so that means that most of his shots were coming off ISO plays. When he finally had a PG that could set him up for easy scores his numbers didn't improve and in fact the team went 2-8 and the coach quit. Melo didn't start hitting for his extremely high %'s last year until March 28th that he started to consistently shoot for a high % and that continued thru April. Those FG%'s seem unlikely to be sustained given the type of shots he takes. He's never been able to shoot for that high a % for an entire season and that's understandable given the kind of attention he gets from defenses. The guy lives off contested jumpers. If he was a catch and shoot guy then I could see a PG really making a difference for him, but he's not.

agreed, Melo doesn't want to adjust to the teams strengths, he wants the team to adjust to his ability to score the basketball.
But his Iso heavey at SF, doesn't allow him to post up with good position.
Instead, it is consist of mainly jab, jab, shoot, or pull up on CONTESTED jump shots, 1/6 times he will take it to the hoop, and will miss 50% of those layups because of the help defense.
When he makes them, he looks great, but when he misses, the position allows to defense to initiate a fast break.
Players cannot cut because they fear they are taking away Melo's ability to take it all the way to the hoop.
This is why Amare/Tyson does not do well with Melo, especially with Fields inability to spread the floor.
The team cannot find success with Melo doing this, but he insist on playing this way because Melo feels it is in the best of HIS interest.
Who was Amare talking about in the first half the season with comments like, "We have to play within the system, it works, we just have to buy in to it"?

This is why I am pushing for Melo to play more PF, because the mismatch allows Melo to be able to penetrate or post up more, depending on how teams adjust to him.
When he plays SF, it will result in contest jumpers for majority of the plays because Amare/Tyson do not draw their defenders and space the floor for Melo to drive.

This worked in Denver with Martin/Nene because they both had advantages with their mid range shot, their mobility, and their ability to post up their man, but Tyson/Amare are not the same players as Martin/Nene.

I am rooting for Melo and the Knicks to succeed, because in the end, I want the best chances for Knicks to win a ring, but we have to adjust.
Our starting lineup/finishing lineup if it is still the same, and Amare/Tyson does not improve their spacing/ability to post up, we will not be as good as many of the fans here think.
It sounds good on paper but will not work for majority of the better playoff caliber teams.

+1 good post

Turning Melo into a role player (which is what wings are in MDA's system. There is a reason why Joe Johnson & Q Richardson were traded after a 62 wins season for role players and draft picks they later traded away. Because there overal offensive skills and expected/current contract wasn't warrented with the way MDA uses wings) doesn't equate to more wins with the roster we had. Which is why Woodson went 18-6 when he looked to feature defense and Melo more. Because that was the strength of the roster.

How does that makes sense for Melo to play off the ball as a catch and shoot/slasher when his PGs are getting eat'n alive.