Bippity10 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Now, back to the issue at hand. I do not like D'antoni and never did. He did quit on us, just like Earl said. I hated his style and am relieved to be moving on. That being said he came here under difficult circumstances, with horrible rosters and worked hard for us. Despite hating his coaching and his style I could recognize that. I also recognize that he has had a philosophy since birth. He has never changed. By trading away his players and forcing Carmelo on him we undermined his power. He was a goner. If we were planning on doing that we should have fired him and moved on before the season instead of trying to force him to "make it work". This "make it work" approach cost us half a season and possibly a playoff series later on due to the record.

Now that Woody is in place I'm hoping that or front office supports him to the end. Get him the players he wants!! If a new GM tomorrow comes in and guts this team and replaces them with players that Woodson doesn't want, our attitude should not be "make it work", it should be, why does our front office hate our coaches so much. Let's get this together finally and make it work.

Oh and for the record, nothing has changed, ALL OF YOU fools will turn on Woodson. I give it 2 years tops before I'm called a Woodson lover and ALL OF YOU GUYS are chanting Fire Woody!

A man need to be judged for his current work. If he was doing a good job and in 2 years the players tune him out, he's got to go!

As far as MDA, saying that this is his way and he can't change because he was sort of born that way is just making excuses for him. He needed to change just like Pat Riley changed and he did not and would not. That is his fault and not the front offices fault. Coaches need to be held accountable as well. That is like saying that its not Amare's fault that he does not play defense because he has never played defense and no coach ever taught him how to play defense or held him accountable for it.

MDA is now gone.

And, Amare actually busted his ass defensively since.

"This is the way he is" logic does not work in NY. You need to be a chameleon.

You are missing the point. Yes a coach should be able to adapt to his players and the great ones do. But let's look at two counter arguments.

1.) A great player should be able to adapt to any coach and any style as well. No different than the coach. Outside of physical constraints like a big man getting up and down the floor, or a small guy playing a post up game, basketball is basketball. You should be able to handle any style.

2.) We hired a coach that had a specific systme that he believed in. We knew that his style would not change. At least the fans on this website knew it. The front office apparently didn't. You either don't hire him, or you get players that fit his style, like Walsh did. You don't hire a guy for his philosophy and then bring in players that don't fit. The Anthony/D'Antoni pairing was a match made in hell. We all knew it. To me, when situations like that arise the accountability falls on the front office. It's there job to help build a cohesive team, not jam players in to a coaches face. I do not place this blame on D'Antoni or Carmelo. They were both placed in a tough spot.

3.) Why do all of you guys continue to bring Pat Riley in to this argument? D'Antoni is not Pat Riley and should not be compared to Pat Riley. He is what he is, and that's who we hired. If we wanted Pat Riley we should have hired Pat Riley.

4.) Lastly, you say a man is judged by his work. Does this not also include the players?? Or is it always the coaches responsibility? Michael Jordan never needed a coach to get him to play hard on defense or hustle back after he turned the ball over. He just did it, because that's what he does. It's innate. A few of our guys need the situation to be perfect for them in order to give the maximum effort. they need to be pushed in order to hustle on defense and/or give their all. That's fragile ground and never leads to a championship. That attitude has to change if you ever want a title.

I am in no way arguing that the players do not have to be accountable (as well). I have stated many times that Melo shares the blame/accountability. You can't take one of the best ISO players in the game, ask him to hang in the corner and expect maximum production out of him. That goes for both production and intensity. You are taking him out of his game. Melo is no Jordan or even Kobe but those players had a coach that put them in a position to succeed not fail.

Saying that he is not Pat Riley because Riley can adapt and he can't is no vindication for MDA.

That being said, if the Front Office knew that he would not change then the pairing was obviously doomed from the start. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt in thinking that MDA would adapt his system.

As far as defensive intensity, I sort of agree. I would love if players were mature enough to do it on their own. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. Amare was never taught better or ever held accountable. That is sad too.

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Allan Houston example:

In Detroit Allan Houston's game was shooting on the move, whether it was off the dribble or off the pick his entire game was centered around that. He signs a free agent contract with us and all of a sudden he's in this iso game. Where he stood in one spot and waited for the occassional once in a blue moon pass from Patrick. I remember him talking about it during an interview. Never once did he complain about Van Gundy's style and how it's not sutied for his talents. Instead he said "I'm not used to taking stand still jumpers, I need to learn to take them in order to open the floor for Patrick". Half a year later he's hitting standstill jumpers like he invented them. The adaptation should go both ways. In a team game, there are no scapegoats. It's everyone's responsibility to make it work.

right now we are making it work. Everyone is responding to Woodson. Hope it lasts for ever. But there is a certain fragility to the Woodson situation that I'm not sure everyone realizes exists.

Only fragility resides in Amare's back, Lin's knee, and Melo's balls. Everyone is pouring their heart out for this guy, something that was missing with MDA even during Linsanity.

Like I said, there is a certain fragility to the situation that not everyone realizes exists.

Winning a championship is not a 9 game thing. Woodson will need to keep this up for the long haul. I personally think he can. That being said, all it takes is one or two situations over the next couple years that one or two guys don't like and, well we've seen what can happen. Once a team does it once, the possibility is always there to happen again. Remember, we are playing great right now. We can do some damage. But reality is, we haven't won anything yet. Fans and the front office should continue to put the accountability on the plaeyrs. The moment we start blasting Woodson's rotations(which we will do), his substitution patters(which we will do) and the heat goes off the players. Anything can happen. Things will get tougher for Woodson. We aren't winning 9 out of 10 games for the rest of his tenure. We are going to suffer adversity. We are going to have a losing streak. Hell, we may get swept in 4 straight games by Miami or Chicago. That's when the true test of coaching and team cohesiveness will appear. How we respond to a situation like that is more important than what is happening now. If our team rallies behind Woodson when the adveristy inevitably happens, then we may have something. Until then, this 9 or 10 game stretch is awesome, should be enjoyed, hopefully we ride it through the season, but it's not indicative of who we really are yet.

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Now, back to the issue at hand. I do not like D'antoni and never did. He did quit on us, just like Earl said. I hated his style and am relieved to be moving on. That being said he came here under difficult circumstances, with horrible rosters and worked hard for us. Despite hating his coaching and his style I could recognize that. I also recognize that he has had a philosophy since birth. He has never changed. By trading away his players and forcing Carmelo on him we undermined his power. He was a goner. If we were planning on doing that we should have fired him and moved on before the season instead of trying to force him to "make it work". This "make it work" approach cost us half a season and possibly a playoff series later on due to the record.

Now that Woody is in place I'm hoping that or front office supports him to the end. Get him the players he wants!! If a new GM tomorrow comes in and guts this team and replaces them with players that Woodson doesn't want, our attitude should not be "make it work", it should be, why does our front office hate our coaches so much. Let's get this together finally and make it work.

Oh and for the record, nothing has changed, ALL OF YOU fools will turn on Woodson. I give it 2 years tops before I'm called a Woodson lover and ALL OF YOU GUYS are chanting Fire Woody!

A man need to be judged for his current work. If he was doing a good job and in 2 years the players tune him out, he's got to go!

As far as MDA, saying that this is his way and he can't change because he was sort of born that way is just making excuses for him. He needed to change just like Pat Riley changed and he did not and would not. That is his fault and not the front offices fault. Coaches need to be held accountable as well. That is like saying that its not Amare's fault that he does not play defense because he has never played defense and no coach ever taught him how to play defense or held him accountable for it.

MDA is now gone.

And, Amare actually busted his ass defensively since.

"This is the way he is" logic does not work in NY. You need to be a chameleon.

You are missing the point. Yes a coach should be able to adapt to his players and the great ones do. But let's look at two counter arguments.

1.) A great player should be able to adapt to any coach and any style as well. No different than the coach. Outside of physical constraints like a big man getting up and down the floor, or a small guy playing a post up game, basketball is basketball. You should be able to handle any style.

2.) We hired a coach that had a specific systme that he believed in. We knew that his style would not change. At least the fans on this website knew it. The front office apparently didn't. You either don't hire him, or you get players that fit his style, like Walsh did. You don't hire a guy for his philosophy and then bring in players that don't fit. The Anthony/D'Antoni pairing was a match made in hell. We all knew it. To me, when situations like that arise the accountability falls on the front office. It's there job to help build a cohesive team, not jam players in to a coaches face. I do not place this blame on D'Antoni or Carmelo. They were both placed in a tough spot.

3.) Why do all of you guys continue to bring Pat Riley in to this argument? D'Antoni is not Pat Riley and should not be compared to Pat Riley. He is what he is, and that's who we hired. If we wanted Pat Riley we should have hired Pat Riley.

4.) Lastly, you say a man is judged by his work. Does this not also include the players?? Or is it always the coaches responsibility? Michael Jordan never needed a coach to get him to play hard on defense or hustle back after he turned the ball over. He just did it, because that's what he does. It's innate. A few of our guys need the situation to be perfect for them in order to give the maximum effort. they need to be pushed in order to hustle on defense and/or give their all. That's fragile ground and never leads to a championship. That attitude has to change if you ever want a title.

I am in no way arguing that the players do not have to be accountable (as well). I have stated many times that Melo shares the blame/accountability. You can't take one of the best ISO players in the game, ask him to hang in the corner and expect maximum production out of him. That goes for both production and intensity. You are taking him out of his game. Melo is no Jordan or even Kobe but those players had a coach that put them in a position to succeed not fail.

Saying that he is not Pat Riley because Riley can adapt and he can't is no vindication for MDA.

That being said, if the Front Office knew that he would not change then the pairing was obviously doomed from the start. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt in thinking that MDA would adapt his system.

As far as defensive intensity, I sort of agree. I would love if players were mature enough to do it on their own. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. Amare was never taught better or ever held accountable. That is sad too.

Again you are missing my point:

1.) I disagree with you whole heartedly. I'm not Michael Jordan and there has never been a moment where a coach has robbed me of my intensity. Nothing robs me of my intensity. Nothgin robs Steve Nash or Michael Jordan or Kevin Love or Kobe Bryant or Iman Shumpert of their intensity. They are just intense. If Carmelo wants to be one of the all-time greats like his salary and trade demands suggest that he wants, then he can allow nothing to rob him of his intensity. Talk about an excuse!

2.) Who is vindicating MDA. I despise MDA as a coach. Still, he isnt' Pat Riley. Riley was an all-time great and D'Antoni is not. He's a guy that can be successful with his style and has proven that. He is a guy that does not change and has shown that sinceh he was coaching in Europe. If the front office is going to change their philosophy and gut the team for Melo they also have to be preapred to replace D'Antoni and not wait half a season for him to quit to do so. You either support the guy 100% or you get out. Our front office has done the opposite for years. They jam players onto a coach, demand he change and then wait until the coach and team implodes before firing him/having him quit. It's an antagonistic relationship that Bip recognzied over a decade ago when Van Gundy quit. If we wnat to avoid going another 40 years, this practice has to stop. Coach and front office on the same page.

3.) Again, that's the job of the front office. D'Antoni left Phoenix because they asked him to change his system. So why would we think he would then come here and change his system? Come on, that's an easy one. Walsh knew this. Our front office didn't know this or ignored it or just didn't care.

4.) As for defensive intensity. There is never an excuse for lack of intensity. We've just recently decided that there are actually reasons for a lack of it. Typically in NY it's the coach or the system etc. That's why it happens to us so often. Gottab put this on the players. Hate the coach. Hate the system. Struggle in a system. All of that is understandable. Carmelo shooting 40% in a new system is understandable(I think it was injuires and the short preseason and not the system but...). There is no excuse for a lack of defensive intensisty. If we keep allowing there to be excuses we are going to eventually doom Woodson as well.

Bippity10 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Now, back to the issue at hand. I do not like D'antoni and never did. He did quit on us, just like Earl said. I hated his style and am relieved to be moving on. That being said he came here under difficult circumstances, with horrible rosters and worked hard for us. Despite hating his coaching and his style I could recognize that. I also recognize that he has had a philosophy since birth. He has never changed. By trading away his players and forcing Carmelo on him we undermined his power. He was a goner. If we were planning on doing that we should have fired him and moved on before the season instead of trying to force him to "make it work". This "make it work" approach cost us half a season and possibly a playoff series later on due to the record.

Now that Woody is in place I'm hoping that or front office supports him to the end. Get him the players he wants!! If a new GM tomorrow comes in and guts this team and replaces them with players that Woodson doesn't want, our attitude should not be "make it work", it should be, why does our front office hate our coaches so much. Let's get this together finally and make it work.

Oh and for the record, nothing has changed, ALL OF YOU fools will turn on Woodson. I give it 2 years tops before I'm called a Woodson lover and ALL OF YOU GUYS are chanting Fire Woody!

A man need to be judged for his current work. If he was doing a good job and in 2 years the players tune him out, he's got to go!

As far as MDA, saying that this is his way and he can't change because he was sort of born that way is just making excuses for him. He needed to change just like Pat Riley changed and he did not and would not. That is his fault and not the front offices fault. Coaches need to be held accountable as well. That is like saying that its not Amare's fault that he does not play defense because he has never played defense and no coach ever taught him how to play defense or held him accountable for it.

MDA is now gone.

And, Amare actually busted his ass defensively since.

"This is the way he is" logic does not work in NY. You need to be a chameleon.

You are missing the point. Yes a coach should be able to adapt to his players and the great ones do. But let's look at two counter arguments.

1.) A great player should be able to adapt to any coach and any style as well. No different than the coach. Outside of physical constraints like a big man getting up and down the floor, or a small guy playing a post up game, basketball is basketball. You should be able to handle any style.

2.) We hired a coach that had a specific systme that he believed in. We knew that his style would not change. At least the fans on this website knew it. The front office apparently didn't. You either don't hire him, or you get players that fit his style, like Walsh did. You don't hire a guy for his philosophy and then bring in players that don't fit. The Anthony/D'Antoni pairing was a match made in hell. We all knew it. To me, when situations like that arise the accountability falls on the front office. It's there job to help build a cohesive team, not jam players in to a coaches face. I do not place this blame on D'Antoni or Carmelo. They were both placed in a tough spot.

3.) Why do all of you guys continue to bring Pat Riley in to this argument? D'Antoni is not Pat Riley and should not be compared to Pat Riley. He is what he is, and that's who we hired. If we wanted Pat Riley we should have hired Pat Riley.

4.) Lastly, you say a man is judged by his work. Does this not also include the players?? Or is it always the coaches responsibility? Michael Jordan never needed a coach to get him to play hard on defense or hustle back after he turned the ball over. He just did it, because that's what he does. It's innate. A few of our guys need the situation to be perfect for them in order to give the maximum effort. they need to be pushed in order to hustle on defense and/or give their all. That's fragile ground and never leads to a championship. That attitude has to change if you ever want a title.

I am in no way arguing that the players do not have to be accountable (as well). I have stated many times that Melo shares the blame/accountability. You can't take one of the best ISO players in the game, ask him to hang in the corner and expect maximum production out of him. That goes for both production and intensity. You are taking him out of his game. Melo is no Jordan or even Kobe but those players had a coach that put them in a position to succeed not fail.

Saying that he is not Pat Riley because Riley can adapt and he can't is no vindication for MDA.

That being said, if the Front Office knew that he would not change then the pairing was obviously doomed from the start. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt in thinking that MDA would adapt his system.

As far as defensive intensity, I sort of agree. I would love if players were mature enough to do it on their own. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. Amare was never taught better or ever held accountable. That is sad too.

Again you are missing my point:

1.) I disagree with you whole heartedly. I'm not Michael Jordan and there has never been a moment where a coach has robbed me of my intensity. Nothing robs me of my intensity. Nothgin robs Steve Nash or Michael Jordan or Kevin Love or Kobe Bryant or Iman Shumpert of their intensity. They are just intense. If Carmelo wants to be one of the all-time greats like his salary and trade demands suggest that he wants, then he can allow nothing to rob him of his intensity. Talk about an excuse!

2.) Who is vindicating MDA. I despise MDA as a coach. Still, he isnt' Pat Riley. Riley was an all-time great and D'Antoni is not. He's a guy that can be successful with his style and has proven that. He is a guy that does not change and has shown that sinceh he was coaching in Europe. If the front office is going to change their philosophy and gut the team for Melo they also have to be preapred to replace D'Antoni and not wait half a season for him to quit to do so. You either support the guy 100% or you get out. Our front office has done the opposite for years. They jam players onto a coach, demand he change and then wait until the coach and team implodes before firing him/having him quit. It's an antagonistic relationship that Bip recognzied over a decade ago when Van Gundy quit. If we wnat to avoid going another 40 years, this practice has to stop. Coach and front office on the same page.

3.) Again, that's the job of the front office. D'Antoni left Phoenix because they asked him to change his system. So why would we think he would then come here and change his system? Come on, that's an easy one. Walsh knew this. Our front office didn't know this or ignored it or just didn't care.

4.) As for defensive intensity. There is never an excuse for lack of intensity. We've just recently decided that there are actually reasons for a lack of it. Typically in NY it's the coach or the system etc. That's why it happens to us so often. Gottab put this on the players. Hate the coach. Hate the system. Struggle in a system. All of that is understandable. Carmelo shooting 40% in a new system is understandable(I think it was injuires and the short preseason and not the system but...). There is no excuse for a lack of defensive intensisty. If we keep allowing there to be excuses we are going to eventually doom Woodson as well.

1)I think you're confusing intensity with Body Language. You could not tell me if Tim Duncan is happy, sad, mad, indifferent, that's just the way he is. And the guy has 4 rings.

2)To be a decent to good coach you need to be able to be more than a one trick pony. Pat Riley abandoned his showtime style in LA to a halfcourt bruising defense first style with the Knicks. Greg Popovich went from a halfcourt style during the 2000s to the run and gun SSOL style in San Antonio.

3)Front office (Walsh and Grunwald) gave him all the tools he would need and the most it led to was 2 games above .500 Pre-Melo, a first round sweep by Boston Post-Melo, and quitting on his team this season after losing the lockerroom.

4)We'll never confuse Melo for All NBA first or second team, but I don't think he's been torched repeatedly this season. He's done a decent job on his man during this recent stretch.

“I think in the last three games, my focus was to have an energy that I haven’t had so far this season, especially on the defensive end,” he said. “Everybody on this team knows, everybody in the world knows I can score the basketball. It’s not that important to me.”

I'm certainly glad that Melo finally did do this. The only problem is how he didn't find that same mental approach all year despite the fact that the team was more focused on D from the start and had been a top 10 defense all year. Also why when he came back and EVERYONE else on the team was already playing hard on D in the win streak before his return. If he had acted as a leader and said he wants to play harder and wanted everyone else to do the same they would've followed his example and likely continued to win games.

This is not to absolve MDA of his coaching responsibility. Surely he could have done more to push Melo and STAT, but for players that all year talked about how offense wasn't a concern as long as they defended, they really fell flat on those words and Melo eventually admitted he wasn't giving his all and all it seemed to take was him deciding "my focus was to have an energy that I haven’t had so far this season, especially on the defensive end,”. That seemed fairly simple.

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Now, back to the issue at hand. I do not like D'antoni and never did. He did quit on us, just like Earl said. I hated his style and am relieved to be moving on. That being said he came here under difficult circumstances, with horrible rosters and worked hard for us. Despite hating his coaching and his style I could recognize that. I also recognize that he has had a philosophy since birth. He has never changed. By trading away his players and forcing Carmelo on him we undermined his power. He was a goner. If we were planning on doing that we should have fired him and moved on before the season instead of trying to force him to "make it work". This "make it work" approach cost us half a season and possibly a playoff series later on due to the record.

Now that Woody is in place I'm hoping that or front office supports him to the end. Get him the players he wants!! If a new GM tomorrow comes in and guts this team and replaces them with players that Woodson doesn't want, our attitude should not be "make it work", it should be, why does our front office hate our coaches so much. Let's get this together finally and make it work.

Oh and for the record, nothing has changed, ALL OF YOU fools will turn on Woodson. I give it 2 years tops before I'm called a Woodson lover and ALL OF YOU GUYS are chanting Fire Woody!

A man need to be judged for his current work. If he was doing a good job and in 2 years the players tune him out, he's got to go!

As far as MDA, saying that this is his way and he can't change because he was sort of born that way is just making excuses for him. He needed to change just like Pat Riley changed and he did not and would not. That is his fault and not the front offices fault. Coaches need to be held accountable as well. That is like saying that its not Amare's fault that he does not play defense because he has never played defense and no coach ever taught him how to play defense or held him accountable for it.

MDA is now gone.

And, Amare actually busted his ass defensively since.

"This is the way he is" logic does not work in NY. You need to be a chameleon.

You are missing the point. Yes a coach should be able to adapt to his players and the great ones do. But let's look at two counter arguments.

1.) A great player should be able to adapt to any coach and any style as well. No different than the coach. Outside of physical constraints like a big man getting up and down the floor, or a small guy playing a post up game, basketball is basketball. You should be able to handle any style.

2.) We hired a coach that had a specific systme that he believed in. We knew that his style would not change. At least the fans on this website knew it. The front office apparently didn't. You either don't hire him, or you get players that fit his style, like Walsh did. You don't hire a guy for his philosophy and then bring in players that don't fit. The Anthony/D'Antoni pairing was a match made in hell. We all knew it. To me, when situations like that arise the accountability falls on the front office. It's there job to help build a cohesive team, not jam players in to a coaches face. I do not place this blame on D'Antoni or Carmelo. They were both placed in a tough spot.

3.) Why do all of you guys continue to bring Pat Riley in to this argument? D'Antoni is not Pat Riley and should not be compared to Pat Riley. He is what he is, and that's who we hired. If we wanted Pat Riley we should have hired Pat Riley.

4.) Lastly, you say a man is judged by his work. Does this not also include the players?? Or is it always the coaches responsibility? Michael Jordan never needed a coach to get him to play hard on defense or hustle back after he turned the ball over. He just did it, because that's what he does. It's innate. A few of our guys need the situation to be perfect for them in order to give the maximum effort. they need to be pushed in order to hustle on defense and/or give their all. That's fragile ground and never leads to a championship. That attitude has to change if you ever want a title.

I am in no way arguing that the players do not have to be accountable (as well). I have stated many times that Melo shares the blame/accountability. You can't take one of the best ISO players in the game, ask him to hang in the corner and expect maximum production out of him. That goes for both production and intensity. You are taking him out of his game. Melo is no Jordan or even Kobe but those players had a coach that put them in a position to succeed not fail.

Saying that he is not Pat Riley because Riley can adapt and he can't is no vindication for MDA.

That being said, if the Front Office knew that he would not change then the pairing was obviously doomed from the start. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt in thinking that MDA would adapt his system.

As far as defensive intensity, I sort of agree. I would love if players were mature enough to do it on their own. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. Amare was never taught better or ever held accountable. That is sad too.

Again you are missing my point:

1.) I disagree with you whole heartedly. I'm not Michael Jordan and there has never been a moment where a coach has robbed me of my intensity. Nothing robs me of my intensity. Nothgin robs Steve Nash or Michael Jordan or Kevin Love or Kobe Bryant or Iman Shumpert of their intensity. They are just intense. If Carmelo wants to be one of the all-time greats like his salary and trade demands suggest that he wants, then he can allow nothing to rob him of his intensity. Talk about an excuse!

2.) Who is vindicating MDA. I despise MDA as a coach. Still, he isnt' Pat Riley. Riley was an all-time great and D'Antoni is not. He's a guy that can be successful with his style and has proven that. He is a guy that does not change and has shown that sinceh he was coaching in Europe. If the front office is going to change their philosophy and gut the team for Melo they also have to be preapred to replace D'Antoni and not wait half a season for him to quit to do so. You either support the guy 100% or you get out. Our front office has done the opposite for years. They jam players onto a coach, demand he change and then wait until the coach and team implodes before firing him/having him quit. It's an antagonistic relationship that Bip recognzied over a decade ago when Van Gundy quit. If we wnat to avoid going another 40 years, this practice has to stop. Coach and front office on the same page.

3.) Again, that's the job of the front office. D'Antoni left Phoenix because they asked him to change his system. So why would we think he would then come here and change his system? Come on, that's an easy one. Walsh knew this. Our front office didn't know this or ignored it or just didn't care.

4.) As for defensive intensity. There is never an excuse for lack of intensity. We've just recently decided that there are actually reasons for a lack of it. Typically in NY it's the coach or the system etc. That's why it happens to us so often. Gottab put this on the players. Hate the coach. Hate the system. Struggle in a system. All of that is understandable. Carmelo shooting 40% in a new system is understandable(I think it was injuires and the short preseason and not the system but...). There is no excuse for a lack of defensive intensisty. If we keep allowing there to be excuses we are going to eventually doom Woodson as well.

I see your point but I think it is a bit narrow (though not wrong)

Are you not speaking as a person who has an intense personality? You, Jordan, me, ... but not everyone has that makeup. It is definitely a flaw in a top athlete if he needs to be motivated by a coach but there are many of them, and, that can definitely hold a player back or keep him from greatness. That is exactly PAUL PIERCE - and Doc Rivers came in, put his nuts to the fire and held him accountable. Paul Pierce is no Kobe or MJ when it comes to [natural] intensity but with the right coach it can be harvested. Does this make Stat and Melo far from all time greats? It certainly does! I am sure that we would have taken Wade or Lebron over any/or both of them but we did not have that choice. So are these players not worth their money because they are missing natural intensity? Perhaps ... but I guess the supply and demand market decides that.

You are assuming that I am exonerating the player for effort that lacks 100 pct intensity, I am not. Some just don't have it without prodding. That IS a knock on the player as well as the coach that does not prod that player.

As far as the F/O knowing that this was who he is and that he was and always will be pig headed, perhaps you are right and they either knew or at least should have known. I am not sure what the back office politics were in regards to this but I am sure that it was plentiful.

Your Doc situation is way off. I live in Boston, trust me. Before the Garnett/Allen trades Doc was eviscerate in Boston. Too rigid, bad rotations, never disciplined Pierce. Boston fans wanted to run him out of town just like us with D'Antoni. I acutally think it was worse for Rivers. But Ainge fought for him and stood by him like a good GM should. He then went out of his way to get him players that could work for him. Then when Garnett and Allen got there it wasn't Doc that gave Paul the ultimatium. It was Ray and Garnett and Pierce together. They made the decision to listen to Doc. Pierce made the choice that if he wanted to iwn titles he had to give in to team ball and o his best on the d. The GM gave the coach power, then got him the players, the players held each other accountable, the coach had their ear and the coach did the rest.

If the situation had been like ours and Ainge had said "well he better make this work" and then Ray or Paul or Kevin decided that Doc's style didn't fit their game and then decided to loaf a little bit. Doc would be coaching Washington right now.

Prior to Boston ray had the ball in his hands a lot. He was there to create for his teammates and for himself. When he came to boston he became strictly a spot up and off the pick jumpshooter. He dind't moan about the system, he adapted and helped his team win. We need all of our players to stop worrying about system and just worry about winning.

Again, you are 100% correct not everyone has 100% intensity. I agree wholeheatedly. Many players need prodding. But I'm telling you, it is not the coach that prods it out of them. Not at this stage of the game. Not 5 or 10 years in to a career. It's the coach and most improtantly it is his teammates and the culture that the front office creates. Teh great coaches don't prod it out of you. We can probably start rattling off guys that came to play for Popovich and Riley and PJ that those guys could not prod effort out of. The difference is that number one, there front offices tended not to go after players like that. Number two if they found one that the coach couldn't get throught to, they jsut got rid of them. As an organization we have to get to that point.

Remember, we have won nothing yet.

100% behind Woodson. No square pegs for his system. There are guys he won't mesh with and won't work for him. We need to avoid those players. We need to get him the tools to be successful, not get the tools we want an dhten demand he be successful. We are all on the same team so why not???

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:The problem I have is when people say silly things about silly things that are said by silly athletes, take them out of context and post it, repost it, again, and again, and again, ...

Whatever! You have something legit to offer then say it otherwise what's the point of posting like an 8 yr old. Everyone has a right to express their opinion and if possible should back that up with something that can support that stance. I don't like having a lead player that we've invested so much in, show such behavior as Melo has shown. I used his own words and actions to show that he didn't do a good job of leading the team thru words and deeds. That's my take on it. You don't have to like it. I have spent a majority of my time on this forum out on an island and that's fine. If you have a problem with me too bad! I would suggest that you should just stick to the topics, arguing the points and not make it personal, cuz this isn't the "why I don't like Nixluva's posts forum"

We were having an "open minded" non biased conversations and you dumped the same sh1t that you have dumped about 500 times in the last week into this post.

It does not even deserve a response.

Thanks Bip. It's always a pleasure conversing with you.

You could always ignore it! It's you making a choice to respond, just as you have on every single thread I post in. You're the one making it personal. Argue the points, no need to critique the posting style. I admire Bip's posting. He's been very clear in his positions and isn't attacking people. I respect his points and how he's handled himself. I like MDA and he doesn't, but he was still fair in his assessment of what MDA did and how things transpired. I'm not asking him to change his view on MDA. Why should he? He criticized MDA for what he feels he didn't do well, but also acknowledged the other factors having to do with Management and the Players. Just because my take is a bit different and I ascribe more blame to one party than another doesn't make my take illegitimate. That's just my take on things. It shouldn't be a shock given my posting for years where I stood.

I'm a personal responsibility guy. I think players should be self motivated for the most part and IMO Melo proved that when he said that he made up his mind to play with more energy than he had the entire season. Melo did that. Just like some players self motivate to get themselves in the greatest condition in the off season. Sure they hire a trainer to push them even harder, but in the end it was their decision to get in elite shape and they're the one doing the work. Being in shape like Jordan, Kobe and Lebron doesn't just happen. No one made Tyson work his tail off every night, but himself.

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:The problem I have is when people say silly things about silly things that are said by silly athletes, take them out of context and post it, repost it, again, and again, and again, ...

Whatever! You have something legit to offer then say it otherwise what's the point of posting like an 8 yr old. Everyone has a right to express their opinion and if possible should back that up with something that can support that stance. I don't like having a lead player that we've invested so much in, show such behavior as Melo has shown. I used his own words and actions to show that he didn't do a good job of leading the team thru words and deeds. That's my take on it. You don't have to like it. I have spent a majority of my time on this forum out on an island and that's fine. If you have a problem with me too bad! I would suggest that you should just stick to the topics, arguing the points and not make it personal, cuz this isn't the "why I don't like Nixluva's posts forum"

We were having an "open minded" non biased conversations and you dumped the same sh1t that you have dumped about 500 times in the last week into this post.

It does not even deserve a response.

Thanks Bip. It's always a pleasure conversing with you.

You too Knickshot!

Nixluva-Go f yourself and go back on the boat that you and D'Antoni came over on(just kidding. You know I love you)

ChuckBuck wrote:

HugeKnick4 wrote:Enough of the talk of MDA. He is gone now. Everyone move forward. It is time to start conjecturing about how Lin will ruin the defensive intensity when he is back in the line up.

Wish it was the easy Huge. Some posters will follow David Koresh, I mean Mike D'Antoni, to their graves.

I think you miss the point. It's not about MDA! This is about the Knicks Organization and how they run the team. Hopefully Woody can find success and even more important the front office will finally figure out that they need to support their coaches and I hope that's the case with Woody. Of course it's all predicated on winning, but there's a certain right way to run a franchise that this team hasn't figured out.