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ESPN: Knicks make significant progress on Carmelo trade
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NYK3
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10/22/2010  1:47 PM
incarceratedbob

Huge News Basekball NY / NJ FANS! HUGE NEWS!!!!! Nets VS Knicks Going down as we speak... Denver Nuggets will choose package real soon
5 minutes ago via web

I wasn't born with enough middle fingers!!!
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Nalod
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10/22/2010  2:29 PM
Amare was about where there was more Kosher deli's for him.
Moonangie
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10/22/2010  2:58 PM
NYK3 wrote:incarceratedbob

Huge News Basekball NY / NJ FANS! HUGE NEWS!!!!! Nets VS Knicks Going down as we speak... Denver Nuggets will choose package real soon
5 minutes ago via web

WTF does this post mean?

Andrew
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10/22/2010  3:01 PM
Moonangie wrote:
NYK3 wrote:incarceratedbob

Huge News Basekball NY / NJ FANS! HUGE NEWS!!!!! Nets VS Knicks Going down as we speak... Denver Nuggets will choose package real soon
5 minutes ago via web

WTF does this post mean?

It means NYK3 should spend less time on RealGM forums.

PURE KNICKS LOVE
TMS
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10/23/2010  2:28 AM
oohah wrote:Apparently, I can't say it enough times: Had the Knicks not given up those assets they would be much more in the game for Carmelo Anthony right this very moment - actually they would probably have him. Walsh took a big risk and he airballed. In my heart I think it was more Dolan's call, but that would be speculation.

oohah

i've brought up that irony several times myself... it's amazing that some guys still try & paint that trade as a success even though we are now in an even worse position to land our plan B target because we gave away some of our assets in that failed attempt this past summer to land the plan A guys.

Walsh took a huge risk & he whiffed... i don't see how that can be disputed... this is not trying to gloat over being right for doubting that trade, it's just stating the facts... why can't some guys just accept this is beyond me... even Donnie doubts himself for making that trade... to me, that takes Dolan & Isiah out of the equation... it was Donnie's call in my eyes.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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10/23/2010  2:33 AM
fishmike wrote:do I think anyone that wants to trade AR or Gallo for Melo is wrong? Honestly I have attachment to anyone on this team right now. I love Amare, always have. I like Gallo. Probably my favorite guy is Douglas because he reminds me of an old school Knick. Also I would fully embrace Melo regardless of what deal got him here because I will embrace anyone that pines to play in NY. I think that means something.

From a talent/BB perspective I would pull the plug on a trade today. If I could get good pick for AR, Chandler or Gallo, then send that pick + Chandler + Curry + AR/Gallo for Melo I would do that today. Go to war with Amare/Melo/Felton/Mos and start Walker at the SG. Douglas, Fields and Turiaf are you bench. Thats a real good team. Who wouldnt sign up for that plan B?

That has never been my arguement. Nobody would be wrong for suggesting thats a good move. Melo is an elite scorer and I have always thought he's a winner. His D is weak and he passes about as much as Al Harrington but what he does he does great.

My arguement is why do we have to trade our good young rotation players for a guy who wants to come here anyway when the Knicks have max cap space at the end of the year. It just seems like we are paying for Melo twice.

I also dont see that group as good enough to win a title.

If we get Melo fine. I'm down with that.

If we want to win a title you need to have some luck. The luck for us would be for at least one guy AR/Gallo/Mos/Douglas to become a bigtime player. A close to all star guy. THEN you sign Melo in the offseason and you have a ton of size and depth backing up your Amare/Melo tandem.

Thats what I would like to see, and I'm willing to live with the downside if it doesnt happen, just like I was willing to live with the downside of the TMac trade if we didnt get 2 max guys.

i am not putting too much hope into the free agency basket ever again... if there's an elite level talent on the market we can get using our assets in a trade, then we need to go for it... there are way too many variables when you rely on hearsay & 3rd person innuendos of where this guy & that guy wants to sign next year as free agents... we all saw what happened w/Lebron, Wade & Bosh this past summer... if we can get someone like CP3 or Melo in trade, then i say go for it... no more playing the waiting game.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
oohah
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10/23/2010  8:54 AM
AnubisADL wrote:Dudes are arguing why Amare came here? We all know he came because the Knicks were the only team "at the time" to offer him max guaranteed salary. Pretty much a no brainer for Amare.

He's gets to live in NYC and make max cash for the next 5 yrs. Sweet deal if you ask me.

I dont think the Net's or the Bulls would have given Amare the max with those knees. Those two teams front offices are really strict when it comes to handing out deals. I remember NJ letting Kenyon Martin go because they didnt like his knees.

I really thought this was open and common knowledge!

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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10/23/2010  9:02 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/23/2010  9:03 AM
TMS wrote:
i've brought up that irony several times myself... it's amazing that some guys still try & paint that trade as a success even though we are now in an even worse position to land our plan B target because we gave away some of our assets in that failed attempt this past summer to land the plan A guys.

Walsh took a huge risk & he whiffed... i don't see how that can be disputed... this is not trying to gloat over being right for doubting that trade, it's just stating the facts... why can't some guys just accept this is beyond me... even Donnie doubts himself for making that trade... to me, that takes Dolan & Isiah out of the equation... it was Donnie's call in my eyes.

Yes, I recall when went the trade went down you and several other guys (Like me) saying the Knicks were burning themselves on that trade. Not so much because of Jordan Hill (Whom we all know you love ), but because the Knicks gave up a sh!itload of useful assets just for the opportunity to get dissed.

***

My view is: It's okay to say when things go wrong. We don't have to twist ourselves into crazy rationales about why it was right. Hypnotizing ourselves into believe something was good, does not, in fact make it good. It doesn't make you more of a fan.

***

CURRENTLY: The Knicks, if Denver is even interested, have to basically gut what is left of the team to land Carmelo Anthony, and they don't have picks or Jeffries' contract to build around Stoudemire and Anthony. - but I'll still take my chances with those two even if the Knicks have to trade all the prospects they have right now! What I am saying is that he would be worth the risk.


oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Moonangie
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10/23/2010  10:01 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/23/2010  10:05 AM
Sorry for a poker analogy, but it fits...

Sometimes, even when you know the other guy has trips, and you are drawing to the flush on the river card, you just have to go for it and hope your suit shows on the river. It's not logical and it's certainly risky. But it's a calculated risk. Knowing the odds, you would be right-minded to fold. But when the tournament is on the line and you're short stack, you just say I need to be in this.

When Donnie made the Houston trade we were still very much in the Lebron tournament. To fold at that point would have been total insanity, even though the odds were not in our favor. In hindsight, it was a really bad trade, not so much because of Hill (he wasn't special) but because of the picks and the reduced flexibility we have now.

But I'd do it again if the chance to land a talent like Lebron was still dangling because he IS that special. As far as Melo goes...

From RealGM:
A source with knowledge of Carmelo Anthony's strategy said the superstar is fully prepared to play the entire season without signing a contract extension.

"Carmelo is not afraid to go into next year and test the CBA," said the source.

One factor that could contribute to Anthony's willingness to play out the season is the possibility that the NBA could seek to roll back all salaries, regardless of whether the contract was signed before the new CBA or not. If so, Anthony would be in the same financial position whether he signs an extension now or waits until free agency.

The franchise-player designation would be a way for the Nuggets to gain additional rights over Anthony they don't currently have. But Stern himself seemed wary of this concept interfering with players' rights.

"I think that the franchise player is an interesting concept, I’m sure it will come up in collective bargaining," Stern said, "but I think players are entitled to get the benefit of what they bargained for. And the union bargains for free agency, the players serve out a certain contract length .... It’s hard for me to buy your premise that somebody who’s played for a certain number of years, under a contract, and is a free agent is thereby dictating where he’s going to play. He’s exercising his rights."


Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/69712/20101022/source_melo_unafraid_to_test_new_cba/#ixzz13BsCKtE2

That doesn't mean he WILL play out the season. But for all of those who say "do whatever it takes now to get him, even if we have to trade away all the yoots", I say: "Let's play the hand we are dealt". Melo has all the leverage. Spike Lee has his cel phone on speed dial. Donnie Walnuts is not a team wrecker, despite the Houston trade. He has his eyes on the bigger prize (i.e., long term viability) not the near-term rewards of adding a superlative scorer.

I am happy to let this play out and see how Donnie does next summer.

Knixkik
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10/23/2010  10:07 AM
Moonangie wrote:Sorry for a poker analogy, but it fits...

Sometimes, even when you know the other guy has trips, and you are drawing to the flush on the river card, you just have to go for it and hope your suit shows on the river. It's not logical and it's certainly risky. But it's a calculated risk. Knowing the odds, you would be right-minded to fold. But when the tournament is on the line and you're short stack, you just say I need to be in this.

When Donnie made the Houston trade we were still very much in the Lebron tournament. To fold at that point would have been total insanity, even though the odds were not in our favor. In hindsight, it was a really bad trade, not so much because of Hill (he wasn't special) but because of the picks and the reduced flexibility we have now.

But I'd do it again if the chance to land a talent like Lebron was still dangling because he IS that special. As far as Melo goes...

From RealGM:
A source with knowledge of Carmelo Anthony's strategy said the superstar is fully prepared to play the entire season without signing a contract extension.

"Carmelo is not afraid to go into next year and test the CBA," said the source.

One factor that could contribute to Anthony's willingness to play out the season is the possibility that the NBA could seek to roll back all salaries, regardless of whether the contract was signed before the new CBA or not. If so, Anthony would be in the same financial position whether he signs an extension now or waits until free agency.

The franchise-player designation would be a way for the Nuggets to gain additional rights over Anthony they don't currently have. But Stern himself seemed wary of this concept interfering with players' rights.

"I think that the franchise player is an interesting concept, I’m sure it will come up in collective bargaining," Stern said, "but I think players are entitled to get the benefit of what they bargained for. And the union bargains for free agency, the players serve out a certain contract length .... It’s hard for me to buy your premise that somebody who’s played for a certain number of years, under a contract, and is a free agent is thereby dictating where he’s going to play. He’s exercising his rights."


Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/69712/20101022/source_melo_unafraid_to_test_new_cba/#ixzz13BsCKtE2


This is the key to the whole thing for us, and probably the most encouraging news too. It makes sense, Stern will not take away the right to head into free agency. He will equally cut all salaries regardless of when they are signed. And why wouldn't he? He has the right to make it fair for the entire league and this is the only way to do it. I think deep down Melo wants to go into free agency for the entire experience. It won't be like LeBron's, but he will enjoy the process and ultimately pick his team of choice, which should be the Knicks. He will head to a team that will not be depleted and should be in solid shape to get deep into the playoffs right away. Given this news, there is no pressure for Denver to deal him, nor for Melo to put any pressure on them. Now if we get the sense that Denver is pushing to trade him now, we have to anti up a good offer. But as long as there isn't that pressure, i'm sure we will just sit still. Once february deadline goes by, we can enjoy the fact that Melo will likely sign with us in the off-season.
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10/23/2010  12:07 PM
oohah wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:Dudes are arguing why Amare came here? We all know he came because the Knicks were the only team "at the time" to offer him max guaranteed salary. Pretty much a no brainer for Amare.

He's gets to live in NYC and make max cash for the next 5 yrs. Sweet deal if you ask me.

I dont think the Net's or the Bulls would have given Amare the max with those knees. Those two teams front offices are really strict when it comes to handing out deals. I remember NJ letting Kenyon Martin go because they didnt like his knees.

I really thought this was open and common knowledge!

oohah

He came because he bought in - he wanted to be in NY and thought he could convince Lebron to come here, too.

Chicago was waiting on Bron, Bosh and Wade and had an appointment set up with Amar'e.

If Amar'e only wanted money, wouldn't he have waited to go to his appointment with Chicago rather than cancel it.

The Knicks and the Suns were the only two teams he talked to in FA. Yes, between those two teams, it's clear he chose the guaranteed 5 year deal (as most people would). But there's a reason he didn't talk to any other teams. He wanted to be in NY or PHX.

¿ △ ?
AnubisADL
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10/23/2010  12:46 PM
crzymdups wrote:
oohah wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:Dudes are arguing why Amare came here? We all know he came because the Knicks were the only team "at the time" to offer him max guaranteed salary. Pretty much a no brainer for Amare.

He's gets to live in NYC and make max cash for the next 5 yrs. Sweet deal if you ask me.

I dont think the Net's or the Bulls would have given Amare the max with those knees. Those two teams front offices are really strict when it comes to handing out deals. I remember NJ letting Kenyon Martin go because they didnt like his knees.

I really thought this was open and common knowledge!

oohah

He came because he bought in - he wanted to be in NY and thought he could convince Lebron to come here, too.

Chicago was waiting on Bron, Bosh and Wade and had an appointment set up with Amar'e.

If Amar'e only wanted money, wouldn't he have waited to go to his appointment with Chicago rather than cancel it.

The Knicks and the Suns were the only two teams he talked to in FA. Yes, between those two teams, it's clear he chose the guaranteed 5 year deal (as most people would). But there's a reason he didn't talk to any other teams. He wanted to be in NY or PHX.

So Amare, who some believed didnt even deserve the max, was supposed to forgo 100% in guaranteed cash to meet with Chicago. If Phoenix had offered 100 million he'd still be in Arizona. Joe Johnson is in Atlanta because they paid him the most money too.

NY Knicks - Retirement home for players and GMs
itchetrigr
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10/23/2010  2:45 PM
the hill trade secured 2 max contracts, whats the beef about?

what is it the rest of you are not understanding? did the trade backfire? sure, since we never did sign wade or lebron, but without that trade we are not in the running for either of them, without that trade we have to hold on for lebron & wade to make their moves before placing our pieces on the table. and to put if frank we could not sell this team to either of them unless we where able to bring them both in or someone worth playing with hence the amare signing once bosh & wade signed with miami. walsh played this the best he could, put the team in the best position to succeed, secured a star player with space to sign lebron if he chose new york, & freed cap space next year for another max.

Olbrannon
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10/23/2010  3:04 PM
Think this is about the wife says NY and Melo says he wants to compete with Stat @MSG against the Beach Boys
You know the place is rockin' if that's whats up. You couldn't buy a seat.
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Finestrg
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10/23/2010  3:11 PM
itchetrigr wrote:the hill trade secured 2 max contracts, whats the beef about?

what is it the rest of you are not understanding? did the trade backfire? sure, since we never did sign wade or lebron, but without that trade we are not in the running for either of them, without that trade we have to hold on for lebron & wade to make their moves before placing our pieces on the table. and to put if frank we could not sell this team to either of them unless we where able to bring them both in or someone worth playing with hence the amare signing once bosh & wade signed with miami. walsh played this the best he could, put the team in the best position to succeed, secured a star player with space to sign lebron if he chose new york, & freed cap space next year for another max.

Well said. I'm with you itch...This is definitely the flip side to why that T-Mac trade was made. We had to be in it to win it. That was the thinking. hard to really slam Donnie on this trade man. It doesn't look great now but the fat lady hasn't sung yet. Let's see what happens..That's my view.

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10/23/2010  3:20 PM
itchetrigr wrote:the hill trade secured 2 max contracts, whats the beef about?

what is it the rest of you are not understanding? did the trade backfire? sure, since we never did sign wade or lebron, but without that trade we are not in the running for either of them, without that trade we have to hold on for lebron & wade to make their moves before placing our pieces on the table. and to put if frank we could not sell this team to either of them unless we where able to bring them both in or someone worth playing with hence the amare signing once bosh & wade signed with miami. walsh played this the best he could, put the team in the best position to succeed, secured a star player with space to sign lebron if he chose new york, & freed cap space next year for another max.

Don't waste your time, some people can't see the forest because of the trees.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
itchetrigr
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10/23/2010  3:52 PM
loweyecue wrote:
Don't waste your time, some people can't see the forest because of the trees.

some people are bent out of shape over a few assets, now i know its tough swallowing come draft day and we're not picking a first or trading away unrealized potential but cap space itself is a great asset, and miami proved it. sure if walsh knows what we all do now, he keeps hill & those picks, signs amare or boozer and watches the other teams fight it out for supremacy having no real shot at lebron or wade. so we end up with our picks in the same position we are now minus a mosgov\felton or the david lee trade, their choice & trying to sell a combination of that to denver...

get one of them to explain to me how that scenario is so much better than what we have now

TMS
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10/23/2010  9:23 PM
itchetrigr wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Don't waste your time, some people can't see the forest because of the trees.

some people are bent out of shape over a few assets, now i know its tough swallowing come draft day and we're not picking a first or trading away unrealized potential but cap space itself is a great asset, and miami proved it. sure if walsh knows what we all do now, he keeps hill & those picks, signs amare or boozer and watches the other teams fight it out for supremacy having no real shot at lebron or wade. so we end up with our picks in the same position we are now minus a mosgov\felton or the david lee trade, their choice & trying to sell a combination of that to denver...

get one of them to explain to me how that scenario is so much better than what we have now


so because we tried & we failed, you consider the trade a success? hey, the Yankees tried to make the WS this year by trading for scrubs like Javy Vazquez & Lance Berkman, but they didn't get there... try telling Yankee fans how successful those trades ended up being this year.

some people would like for this franchise to make SMART trades & not give away future assets for $9M in cap space that ended up getting us Ray Felton.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
ramtour420
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10/24/2010  12:14 AM
TMS wrote:
itchetrigr wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Don't waste your time, some people can't see the forest because of the trees.

some people are bent out of shape over a few assets, now i know its tough swallowing come draft day and we're not picking a first or trading away unrealized potential but cap space itself is a great asset, and miami proved it. sure if walsh knows what we all do now, he keeps hill & those picks, signs amare or boozer and watches the other teams fight it out for supremacy having no real shot at lebron or wade. so we end up with our picks in the same position we are now minus a mosgov\felton or the david lee trade, their choice & trying to sell a combination of that to denver...

get one of them to explain to me how that scenario is so much better than what we have now


so because we tried & we failed, you consider the trade a success? hey, the Yankees tried to make the WS this year by trading for scrubs like Javy Vazquez & Lance Berkman, but they didn't get there... try telling Yankee fans how successful those trades ended up being this year.

some people would like for this franchise to make SMART trades & not give away future assets for $9M in cap space that ended up getting us Ray Felton.

So, you'd rather have Hill, JJ and a pick over signing Felton and Mozgov? And , likely, signing Amare. And isn't there a rule that would have prevented us from getting assets in Dlee trade, unless we had cap space? Why are we talking again about JJ and Hill and ONE 1st rounder? We now are in the process of landing Carmelo. . . Whatddaya think about them apples? Should we have dropped out of the free agent market by not making that trade? I don't think so, and btw, i don't see what Yankees have to do with this discussion.

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
CrushAlot
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10/24/2010  12:23 AM
TMS wrote:
itchetrigr wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Don't waste your time, some people can't see the forest because of the trees.

some people are bent out of shape over a few assets, now i know its tough swallowing come draft day and we're not picking a first or trading away unrealized potential but cap space itself is a great asset, and miami proved it. sure if walsh knows what we all do now, he keeps hill & those picks, signs amare or boozer and watches the other teams fight it out for supremacy having no real shot at lebron or wade. so we end up with our picks in the same position we are now minus a mosgov\felton or the david lee trade, their choice & trying to sell a combination of that to denver...

get one of them to explain to me how that scenario is so much better than what we have now


so because we tried & we failed, you consider the trade a success? hey, the Yankees tried to make the WS this year by trading for scrubs like Javy Vazquez & Lance Berkman, but they didn't get there... try telling Yankee fans how successful those trades ended up being this year.

some people would like for this franchise to make SMART trades & not give away future assets for $9M in cap space that ended up getting us Ray Felton.

Its convenient to say one first rounder because the other pick was swapped. However, the Knicks did this when they got Curry and the swapped pick was Joakim Noah. Don't discount how badly that swapped pick could work out to be for the Knicks. Yao is going to play about 21 minutes a game and that team is extremely well coached and has the talent to get into the playoffs in the west.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
ESPN: Knicks make significant progress on Carmelo trade

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