Pharzeone wrote:

Uptown wrote:

TMS wrote:Zach & his $17 million dollar contract in 2010 needed to be traded to give us any chance at a FA this summer.

Not sure why this concept is so hard to grasp for some. There are many things to bash Walsh and MDA on if thats the direction you want to go in, but trading Zach and his contract isn't one of them.

This was the case until about a week ago. Once Walsh made the decision to trade Jeffries with the draft picks, you can make the argument that trading Z-Bo was not necessary if you were looking for someone of his caliber to play along your wing FA. Bringing back Lee or bringing in Boozer for those amounts or near them will be a step back or counterproductive. These trades are independent of each other. I think this point was brought up last year about the Jeffries and Curry contracts should be the first to go.
1) trading Z-Bo
2) trading Crawford
3) trading Jeffries

Any other year, perhaps. But in a summer with so many legit allstars available (Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Stoudemire, Johnson, etc) at the same time, I can understand the gamble. All of these guys have already played together during the olympics for the coach we have on our sidelines. Its not a bad gamble on Walshs behalf especially when you consider that Lebron is on record as saying 'of all the redeem team players, Bosh is the one player he would like to play with.' Walsh cleared space to make that a possibility if Lebron was serious. Even if we dont land Lebron, there are other options. This is perhaps the best FA class ever. The best players (with the exception of Anthony) from the class of 2003 ar available. Walsh would be foolish not to clear the decks to possibly land one if not two.

The last player to do that...Hakeem the Dream, back in 88.

oohah wrote:

Uptown wrote:

TMS wrote:Zach & his $17 million dollar contract in 2010 needed to be traded to give us any chance at a FA this summer.

Not sure why this concept is so hard to grasp for some. There are many things to bash Walsh and MDA on if thats the direction you want to go in, but trading Zach and his contract isn't one of them.

If you are a believer in gaining cap space in a reasonable manner, not jumping the gun, and getting a reasonable return on your assets,(like I am.), both the Randolph and Jeffries trades were not very good.

oohah

i am a believer that their contracts needed to be dumped in order for us to have any chance at better players in free agency this summer... DW accomplished this w/o giving up any future assets, i have no problem w/this whatsoever... neither Jamal nor Zach were going to lead this franchise anywhere & you're deluded to think other bigname FA's would be looking at either of them as the drawing card to come to NY this summer... if that were the case, the MEM Grizzlies would be looking to get in on this summer's FA market as well.

what i am not a believer of is that u give up a ton of future assets to clear up cap space when you already have the cap room cleared to sign a max FA this summer... trading away a ton of future assets to clear $10 mil off your cap is not the same thing as trading away 2 veterans with $28 million dollars worth of bloated contracts for expirings when your team sucked with them playing here.

TMS wrote:

Pharzeone wrote:

Uptown wrote:

TMS wrote:Zach & his $17 million dollar contract in 2010 needed to be traded to give us any chance at a FA this summer.

Not sure why this concept is so hard to grasp for some. There are many things to bash Walsh and MDA on if thats the direction you want to go in, but trading Zach and his contract isn't one of them.

This was the case until about a week ago. Once Walsh made the decision to trade Jeffries with the draft picks, you can make the argument that trading Z-Bo was not necessary if you were looking for someone of his caliber to play along your wing FA. Bringing back Lee or bringing in Boozer for those amounts or near them will be a step back or counterproductive. These trades are independent of each other. I think this point was brought up last year about the Jeffries and Curry contracts should be the first to go.
1) trading Z-Bo
2) trading Crawford
3) trading Jeffries

Zach & D Lee are essentially the same player... they both are double double machines that play no defense... if u like what Zach can give u, D Lee will give u the same things on a cheaper contract this summer if that's the way u wanna go... no reason to have Zach taking up the cap space this summer when there will be better players than him available to sign, or in the worst case scenario, players that are on his level like Lee & Boozer for less money.

What power forwards are on the market that are major upgrades over Randolph? Bosh okay but again they are comparable so that argument is kind of bs at this point.

so fair value for D Lee would be a max contract this summer?

Notice I said market value not fair, fair has nothing to do with it. Is it fair that T-Mac is making 23 million dollars this season, or Michael Redd get 17 million or Gilbert Arenas makes 16 million? But that's right you rather get pissy over Randolph a guy who actually works hard and busts his ass on nightly basis about being paid 17 million.

TMS wrote:

bitty41 wrote:

TMS wrote:

Pharzeone wrote:

Uptown wrote:

TMS wrote:Zach & his $17 million dollar contract in 2010 needed to be traded to give us any chance at a FA this summer.

Not sure why this concept is so hard to grasp for some. There are many things to bash Walsh and MDA on if thats the direction you want to go in, but trading Zach and his contract isn't one of them.

This was the case until about a week ago. Once Walsh made the decision to trade Jeffries with the draft picks, you can make the argument that trading Z-Bo was not necessary if you were looking for someone of his caliber to play along your wing FA. Bringing back Lee or bringing in Boozer for those amounts or near them will be a step back or counterproductive. These trades are independent of each other. I think this point was brought up last year about the Jeffries and Curry contracts should be the first to go.
1) trading Z-Bo
2) trading Crawford
3) trading Jeffries

Zach & D Lee are essentially the same player... they both are double double machines that play no defense... if u like what Zach can give u, D Lee will give u the same things on a cheaper contract this summer if that's the way u wanna go... no reason to have Zach taking up the cap space this summer when there will be better players than him available to sign, or in the worst case scenario, players that are on his level like Lee & Boozer for less money.

What power forwards are on the market that are major upgrades over Randolph? Bosh okay but again they are comparable so that argument is kind of bs at this point.

so fair value for D Lee would be a max contract this summer?

Notice I said market value not fair, fair has nothing to do with it. Is it fair that T-Mac is making 23 million dollars this season, or Michael Redd get 17 million or Gilbert Arenas makes 16 million? But that's right you rather get pissy over Randolph a guy who actually works hard and busts his ass on nightly basis about being paid 17 million.

i realize u feel the need to stick up for your crush, but i wasn't getting pissy over Zach making $17 mil, just stating facts... there are players comparable to him that u can sign for less money this offseason... keeping him made absolutely no sense especially when he already proved he couldn't take this team anywhere in his time as a Knick... absolute worst case scenario is we miss out on Lebron & Bosh & end up having to re-sign D Lee to a contract at less dollars, & even that's a more acceptable plan than paying Zach $17 mil to be a Knick next season... i don't hate the guy, this is just real talk i'm presenting to u... D Lee busts his ass on a nightly basis too but i wouldn't be happy about paying him no $17 mil either.

I think there is maybe 4 players in the entire NBA that would qualify for max contracts in your mind. I think this is also the problem with Knick fans, if your not a first team all-nba player or on a rookie contract Knick fans want nothing to do with you.

they have to be the right kind of player that i'd want to build around

first thing i do this summer is ask Lebron who he wants us to play with in NY & then make the moves to target those players... my guess is Zach Randolph would not be on his short list.

Unless guys around the league become willing to take pay cuts in order to play in NY there is no one way Walsh would be able to deliver on such a statement.

bitty41 wrote:

they have to be the right kind of player that i'd want to build around

I just think you have these incredibly high standards and ultimately there are very few players you would be happy with the Knicks signing. Because right now Zach is on your bullseye but down the road if Bosh or Johnson signed here they would fall into your crosshairs. Really unless his name is Lebron James you won't be happy. This team is not constructed to win next year or even the year after so what will happen is that the Knicks signing will get most of the blame and than we'll start all over again with "he's not a player to build around" talk..

first thing i do this summer is ask Lebron who he wants us to play with in NY & then make the moves to target those players... my guess is Zach Randolph would not be on his short list.

Unless guys around the league become willing to take pay cuts in order to play in NY there is no one way Walsh would be able to deliver on such a statement.

sorry to interject... i sure hope they didnt clear space for joe j, boozer, etc. honestly, would players who sign max contracts not realize that a lot would be expected from them?

a side effect of the cba changes after the 99 mess was that elite players max sals were brought down with lower tiered guys (the flat MAX sal). this has made those lower tiered guys subject to perhaps elite expectations. win for the owners economically, for anyone else: players == lose, fans ==?, FO==?.

bitty41 wrote:

they have to be the right kind of player that i'd want to build around

I just think you have these incredibly high standards and ultimately there are very few players you would be happy with the Knicks signing. Because right now Zach is on your bullseye but down the road if Bosh or Johnson signed here they would fall into your crosshairs. Really unless his name is Lebron James you won't be happy. This team is not constructed to win next year or even the year after so what will happen is that the Knicks signing will get most of the blame and than we'll start all over again with "he's not a player to build around" talk..

first thing i do this summer is ask Lebron who he wants us to play with in NY & then make the moves to target those players... my guess is Zach Randolph would not be on his short list.

Unless guys around the league become willing to take pay cuts in order to play in NY there is no one way Walsh would be able to deliver on such a statement.

the second Donnie pulled the panic trade to dump Fishlips' contract & giving up our future assets, my scope of players i'd be happy with became a lot shorter... at that point it was all in for Lebron+Co for me...

before we made this trade i didn't hold that point of view... we still owned our future assets at the beginning of the season & we had the cap flexibility this summer to make signings & the assets to make trades with this summer after we unloaded Zach & Jamal's contracts... i would have been happy w/a pretty good range of players this summer... u can go ahead & run a search on the old threads & u will see i always said it was about the flexibility to make moves this summer Lebron or no Lebron... but now we have no fall back options... Donnie saw to that... my focus has now shifted to the top names this offseason, cuz that's what would justify making this trade in my eyes... anything less would be a failure if u ask me... at this point w/our picks now in jeopardy for the next 2 seasons, i would only be happy with a combination of Lebron/Wade/Bosh & another player, unless they pull off some crazy trade out they ass no one saw coming.

& u'r taking my comments way too personally against Zach... if u don't remember i was probably Jamal's biggest supporter on these forums & i even knew he had to be dumped for the greater longterm good of this franchise... & i hated Tim Thomas more than anyone i know around here but even then i didn't have a problem when we got him back in that Zach trade... this has nothing to do with having a bullseye on hating Zach Randolph for me... i'm thinking about the longterm, not holding onto players out of sentimental reasons.

flexibility this summer to make signings & the assets to make trades with this summer after we unloaded Zach & Jamal's contracts... i would have been happy w/a pretty good range of players this summer... u can go ahead & run a search on the old threads & u will see i always said it was about the flexibility to make moves this summer Lebron or no Lebron... but now we have no fall back options... Donnie saw to that... my focus has now shifted to the top names this offseason, cuz that's what would justify making this trade in my eyes... anything less would be a failure if u ask me... at this point w/our picks now in jeopardy for the next 2 seasons, i would only be happy with a combination of Lebron/Wade/Bosh & another player, unless they pull off some crazy trade out they ass no one saw coming.

This I agree with. Walsh has backed the team into a corner.

& u'r taking my comments way too personally against Zach... if u don't remember i was probably Jamal's biggest supporter on these forums & i even knew he had to be dumped for the greater longterm good of this franchise... & i hated Tim Thomas more than anyone i know around here but even then i didn't have a problem when we got him back in that Zach trade... this has nothing to do with having a bullseye on hating Zach Randolph for me... i'm thinking about the longterm, not holding onto players out of sentimental reasons.

No I don't think you personally have anything against him (and even if you did that's your business) but I just think we have different ideologies about what's important to a team. Cap space/flexibility has been something you've been harping on for awhile now and for me those two things just isn't a number one issue for me. I rather see the Knicks competing for a playoff spot right now than watching them have yet another losing season. I don't buy into the greater good ideology.

bitty41 wrote:

The problem is that going into next season the Knicks will nee to fill out an entire roster if we were talking about one missing piece than sure this would be a great position.

No, they don't actually. This isn't a one year gunning for a title situation.

This is about building a team to contend for 5-7 years.

In that what we need this offseason is to score some building blocks.

Then, in 2011 when we have more cap space, we can start to "fill out the roster"