Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by bitty41:

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by BlueSeats:

In the 1st quarter lee went 4-4 and was probably the best player on the floor for either team. We played with spirit and unity. Then Isiah sat him most of the second quarter. Curry put up points but the knicks lost ground and spirit.

Please stop...

Noah shut Lee down.

.. noah didn't do a damn thing. the first quarter the guys were playing well. then he sat lee until a little under two minutes in the second quarter, jeffries who was playing well, sat most of that quarter also....

[Edited by - tkf on 30-12-2007 2:39 PM]

How sad we have 2 fans arguing in defense of Zach to slight Lee as we produces another blowout effort performance. Why would you want to post on a forum to **** on Lee while trying to cut Zach some slack? This gets back to the fans who would lash out in fits of rage defending Curry....WHY?

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 12-30-2007 1:47 PM]

I agree, that is just moronic behavior. over at realgm, they are defending zach, and using crawford as reason to do so.. I said, crawford is not the knicks problem, he is not their solution, but he is not the problem. zach is a huge problem IMO.... But yea , listen to every announcer around the league, they heap praises on lee, while they take pot shots at zach.. I guess they are all missing something too.. right? what a joke..

Spot on! I even asked Holfresh earlier if he was able to listen to the Bulls announcers, they were having a field Zach torching Zach. But for some odd reason our fans always have to detract from the big picture and start this little escapade of scapegoating the least glaring problem.

when lee was destroying the kings front line a few weeks ago. the kings announcers were like, this david lee is good, and young. Then they mentioned the artest rumors with the knicks, and they went on to say" no wonder why the knicks are reluctant to include this kid in any deal, he is a player". Now these are guys who have no reason to pump lee up, they are just commenting on what they and every sane person in this league sees...

Posted by PresIke:

Posted by FireIsiah:

Isiah has the audacity to say we are close. Close to what? you f'in ahole.

Man, he didn't say that. That is not a real quote.

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by bitty41:

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by BlueSeats:

In the 1st quarter lee went 4-4 and was probably the best player on the floor for either team. We played with spirit and unity. Then Isiah sat him most of the second quarter. Curry put up points but the knicks lost ground and spirit.

Please stop...

Noah shut Lee down.

.. noah didn't do a damn thing. the first quarter the guys were playing well. then he sat lee until a little under two minutes in the second quarter, jeffries who was playing well, sat most of that quarter also....

[Edited by - tkf on 30-12-2007 2:39 PM]

How sad we have 2 fans arguing in defense of Zach to slight Lee as we produces another blowout effort performance. Why would you want to post on a forum to **** on Lee while trying to cut Zach some slack? This gets back to the fans who would lash out in fits of rage defending Curry....WHY?

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 12-30-2007 1:47 PM]

I agree, that is just moronic behavior. over at realgm, they are defending zach, and using crawford as reason to do so.. I said, crawford is not the knicks problem, he is not their solution, but he is not the problem. zach is a huge problem IMO.... But yea , listen to every announcer around the league, they heap praises on lee, while they take pot shots at zach.. I guess they are all missing something too.. right? what a joke..

Spot on! I even asked Holfresh earlier if he was able to listen to the Bulls announcers, they were having a field Zach torching Zach. But for some odd reason our fans always have to detract from the big picture and start this little escapade of scapegoating the least glaring problem.

when lee was destroying the kings front line a few weeks ago. the kings announcers were like, this david lee is good, and young. Then they mentioned the artest rumors with the knicks, and they went on to say" no wonder why the knicks are reluctant to include this kid in any deal, he is a player". Now these are guys who have no reason to pump lee up, they are just commenting on what they and every sane person in this league sees...

Well I guess mission accomplished. We're debating Zach vs Lee unmerited, which is pathetic. It's a LOW BUDGET tactic move by a couple here to drive one of the weakest AGENDAS home. The same fans who are considered Lee enablers are the very ones who despised the Zach move and said this move would create a Myriad of problems. The fans who tried to stick up for this team to the bitter end are looking for an axe to grind against those fans who despised these tumultuous moves such as acquiring Zach by attacking Lee.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 12-30-2007 2:40 PM]

Thomas won't say the Randolph-Curry tandem is done for good, but it hasn't clicked thus far. They played a good portion of the second quarter together and got plenty of good shots. They just didn't make many of them, combining to go 5-of-20 in the first half.

"I'm definitely not embracing it but what can I do?" Curry said of the reserve role. "I have to use the minutes that I have and try to be productive and if I don't play a lot of minutes, I don't play a lot of minutes. There's nothing I can do. I can't sub myself into the game. I'm not going to go to him crying and whining about playing and starting and all that stuff.

"It definitely bugs me," Curry added. "I think I'm a starter in this league, but I guess not on this team."

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Who's hyping Lee? I think Nocioni is three times the player Lee is, and he comes off the bench.

By look at the game log and follow Lee's name on the right hand side. In the first half everything he did was a positive. No missed shots, no turnovers, and holfresh wants him bashed.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=271230018

No Blue I don't want to bash him at all, just don't say things were going well when he is in the game because it wasn't going well...

He played 36 minutes with 11 pts, 7 boards...but somehow is was the only one doing well and playing the right way..





[Edited by - holfresh on 12-30-2007 3:24 PM]

[Edited by - holfresh on 12-30-2007 3:24 PM]

I was speaking of the first quarter, where the score was tied and he was 4 for 4 with some rebounds and no turnovers.

You were adamant that we didn't lose ground with curry when we clearly did: from even to down 8.

For some reason you feel the need to skew this much farther than it's worth.

Let me ask you guys this. If you make a list of Knicks you'd like to dump and those you'd like to keep, which side does Lee go on?

Lee is definitely a keeper, no doubt about it...I would trade the entire roster right now with Lee being the only holdover...I just can't take the hype....

The Knicks lost no ground with Curry as you stated....Lee was 3-3 when he left the game, he hit his 4th shot when he got back in the game at the end of the second qtr...Breen then chimed in about Lee not playing but Curry was playing well at the time but that doesn't matter....The Knicks played the Bulls even in the second quarter...Lee started the third quarter when the Knicks got blown out...Does he get credit for that or no?...

Stop saying we lost no ground with Curry when we were even when he came in and down 7 or 8 when he came out.

And please stop saying Lee is the only keeper and then tell me he's overrated. Show me specific quotes that overrate him any more than that.

Knicks was down about 3 pts when Lee left the game, it wasn't even...Lee is hyped and overrated...Guys in the same role as Lee doesn't get the hype that Lee gets...I think Millsap is a better player than Lee but will never get the same hype....You think Millsap would ever be invited to play with the Olympic team?...

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Who's hyping Lee? I think Nocioni is three times the player Lee is, and he comes off the bench.

By look at the game log and follow Lee's name on the right hand side. In the first half everything he did was a positive. No missed shots, no turnovers, and holfresh wants him bashed.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=271230018

No Blue I don't want to bash him at all, just don't say things were going well when he is in the game because it wasn't going well...

He played 36 minutes with 11 pts, 7 boards...but somehow is was the only one doing well and playing the right way..





[Edited by - holfresh on 12-30-2007 3:24 PM]

[Edited by - holfresh on 12-30-2007 3:24 PM]

I was speaking of the first quarter, where the score was tied and he was 4 for 4 with some rebounds and no turnovers.

You were adamant that we didn't lose ground with curry when we clearly did: from even to down 8.

For some reason you feel the need to skew this much farther than it's worth.

Let me ask you guys this. If you make a list of Knicks you'd like to dump and those you'd like to keep, which side does Lee go on?

Lee is definitely a keeper, no doubt about it...I would trade the entire roster right now with Lee being the only holdover...I just can't take the hype....

The Knicks lost no ground with Curry as you stated....Lee was 3-3 when he left the game, he hit his 4th shot when he got back in the game at the end of the second qtr...Breen then chimed in about Lee not playing but Curry was playing well at the time but that doesn't matter....The Knicks played the Bulls even in the second quarter...Lee started the third quarter when the Knicks got blown out...Does he get credit for that or no?...

Stop saying we lost no ground with Curry when we were even when he came in and down 7 or 8 when he came out.

And please stop saying Lee is the only keeper and then tell me he's overrated. Show me specific quotes that overrate him any more than that.

Knicks was down about 3 pts when Lee left the game, it wasn't even...Lee is hyped and overrated...Guys in the same role as Lee doesn't get the hype that Lee gets...I think Millsap is a better player than Lee but will never get the same hype....You think Millsap would ever be invited to play with the Olympic team?...

Posted by holfresh:

Let not leave it at that:

12:00 Start of the 1st Quarter
12:00 Jumpball: Ben Wallace vs. David Lee (Luol Deng gains possession) 0-0
11:49 0-0 David Lee shooting foul (Luol Deng draws the foul)
11:49 Luol Deng makes free throw 1 of 2 1-0
11:49 Luol Deng misses free throw 2 of 2 1-0
11:48 1-0 Zach Randolph defensive rebound
11:26 1-3 Nate Robinson makes 25-foot three point jumper (Quentin Richardson assists)
11:04 Kirk Hinrich misses 23-foot three point jumper 1-3
11:03 1-3 Quentin Richardson defensive rebound
11:00 Chris Duhon shooting foul (Nate Robinson draws the foul) 1-3
11:00 1-4 Nate Robinson makes free throw 1 of 2
11:00 1-5 Nate Robinson makes free throw 2 of 2
10:37 Joe Smith makes two point shot 3-5
10:12 3-5 Zach Randolph misses layup
10:11 Ben Wallace defensive rebound 3-5
9:56 Chris Duhon makes 24-foot three point jumper (Luol Deng assists) 6-5
9:41 6-8 Quentin Richardson makes 25-foot three point jumper (Zach Randolph assists)
9:23 Chris Duhon makes 25-foot three point jumper (Luol Deng assists) 9-8
9:07 9-8 Zach Randolph misses 6-foot jumper
9:06 9-8 New York offensive rebound
8:56 9-10 Zach Randolph makes 8-foot jumper
8:33 Kirk Hinrich makes 24-foot three point jumper (Luol Deng assists) 12-10
8:15 12-12 Quentin Richardson makes driving layup (Zach Randolph assists)
7:52 12-12 Jared Jeffries shooting foul (Luol Deng draws the foul)
7:52 Luol Deng makes free throw 1 of 2 13-12
7:52 Luol Deng makes free throw 2 of 2 14-12
7:35 14-12 Jared Jeffries misses layup
7:33 Chris Duhon defensive rebound 14-12
7:28 Luol Deng makes 15-foot two point shot (Kirk Hinrich assists) 16-12
7:09 16-12 Quentin Richardson misses 25-foot three point jumper
7:07 Joe Smith defensive rebound 16-12
6:52 Chris Duhon misses three point jumper 16-12
6:50 16-12 Zach Randolph defensive rebound
6:37 16-12 Zach Randolph misses 21-foot jumper
6:35 16-12 Quentin Richardson misses tip shot
6:35 16-12 Quentin Richardson offensive rebound
6:35 16-12 Jared Jeffries offensive rebound
6:20 16-12 Zach Randolph misses 9-foot jumper
6:18 16-12 David Lee offensive rebound
6:16 16-14 David Lee makes layup
6:01 Joe Smith bad pass (Nate Robinson steals) 16-14
5:56 16-16 David Lee makes two point shot (Nate Robinson assists)
5:56 Joe Smith shooting foul (David Lee draws the foul) 16-16
5:56 New York full timeout
5:56 Ben Gordon enters the game for Chris Duhon 16-16
5:56 16-16 Fred Jones enters the game for Jared Jeffries
5:56 16-17 David Lee makes free throw 1 of 1
5:41 Joe Smith bad pass (Quentin Richardson steals) 16-17
5:33 16-17 Zach Randolph misses 9-foot jumper
6:35 16-17 Jared Jeffries misses tip shot
5:31 Joe Smith defensive rebound 16-17
5:18 Kirk Hinrich makes 24-foot three point jumper (Luol Deng assists) 19-17
5:05 19-19 David Lee makes slam dunk (Nate Robinson assists)
4:52 Luol Deng misses 18-foot jumper 19-19
4:52 Chicago defensive rebound 19-19
4:52 Joe Smith loose ball foul (David Lee draws the foul) 19-19
4:52 19-19 Eddy Curry enters the game for Zach Randolph
4:52 Aaron Gray enters the game for Joe Smith 19-19
6:33 19-19 Jared Jeffries offensive rebound
4:37 19-19 Nate Robinson bad pass
4:26 Luol Deng bad pass 19-19
4:09 19-19 Nate Robinson misses 24-foot three point jumper
4:07 Luol Deng defensive rebound 19-19
3:49 Aaron Gray traveling 19-19
3:25 19-19 Eddy Curry misses 10-foot jumper
3:24 Kirk Hinrich defensive rebound 19-19
3:15 Kirk Hinrich makes 25-foot three point jumper (Luol Deng assists) 22-19
2:58 22-19 Eddy Curry traveling
2:58 Chicago full timeout
2:41 Luol Deng misses 20-foot jumper 22-19
2:40 22-19 David Lee defensive rebound
2:20 22-19 Nate Robinson misses 25-foot three point jumper
2:18 22-19 Eddy Curry offensive rebound
2:12 22-19 Nate Robinson traveling
2:00 Aaron Gray traveling 22-19
2:00 22-19 Mardy Collins enters the game for Nate Robinson
2:00 Andres Nocioni enters the game for Ben Wallace 22-19
1:38 22-21 Fred Jones makes 15-foot two point shot
1:25 Ben Gordon makes 16-foot jumper (Kirk Hinrich assists) 24-21
1:16 Ben Gordon shooting foul (Eddy Curry draws the foul) 24-21
1:16 24-21 Eddy Curry misses free throw 1 of 2
1:16 24-21 New York offensive rebound
1:16 24-22 Eddy Curry makes free throw 2 of 2
1:02 Ben Gordon misses jumper 24-22
1:01 Luol Deng offensive rebound 24-22
1:00 Luol Deng makes layup 26-22
0:42 26-22 Quentin Richardson traveling
0:33 26-22 Mardy Collins shooting foul (Kirk Hinrich draws the foul)
0:33 Kirk Hinrich makes free throw 1 of 2 27-22
0:33 Kirk Hinrich makes free throw 2 of 2 28-22
0:20 28-22 Eddy Curry lost ball (Luol Deng steals)
0:16 Ben Gordon makes layup (Luol Deng assists) 30-22
0:00 30-22 Fred Jones misses 34-foot three point jumper
0:00 30-22 New York offensive rebound
0:00 End of the 1st Quarter


This shows that Lee was in the game after after the Knicks fell behind in the first quarter and never caught the Bulls again...So I'm really not sure what you are referring to when you say the game was even when Lee left...

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by holfresh:

Let not leave it at that:

12:00 Start of the 1st Quarter
12:00 Jumpball: Ben Wallace vs. David Lee (Luol Deng gains possession) 0-0
11:49 0-0 David Lee shooting foul (Luol Deng draws the foul)
11:49 Luol Deng makes free throw 1 of 2 1-0
11:49 Luol Deng misses free throw 2 of 2 1-0
11:48 1-0 Zach Randolph defensive rebound
11:26 1-3 Nate Robinson makes 25-foot three point jumper (Quentin Richardson assists)
11:04 Kirk Hinrich misses 23-foot three point jumper 1-3
11:03 1-3 Quentin Richardson defensive rebound
11:00 Chris Duhon shooting foul (Nate Robinson draws the foul) 1-3
11:00 1-4 Nate Robinson makes free throw 1 of 2
11:00 1-5 Nate Robinson makes free throw 2 of 2
10:37 Joe Smith makes two point shot 3-5
10:12 3-5 Zach Randolph misses layup
10:11 Ben Wallace defensive rebound 3-5
9:56 Chris Duhon makes 24-foot three point jumper (Luol Deng assists) 6-5
9:41 6-8 Quentin Richardson makes 25-foot three point jumper (Zach Randolph assists)
9:23 Chris Duhon makes 25-foot three point jumper (Luol Deng assists) 9-8
9:07 9-8 Zach Randolph misses 6-foot jumper
9:06 9-8 New York offensive rebound
8:56 9-10 Zach Randolph makes 8-foot jumper
8:33 Kirk Hinrich makes 24-foot three point jumper (Luol Deng assists) 12-10
8:15 12-12 Quentin Richardson makes driving layup (Zach Randolph assists)
7:52 12-12 Jared Jeffries shooting foul (Luol Deng draws the foul)
7:52 Luol Deng makes free throw 1 of 2 13-12
7:52 Luol Deng makes free throw 2 of 2 14-12
7:35 14-12 Jared Jeffries misses layup
7:33 Chris Duhon defensive rebound 14-12
7:28 Luol Deng makes 15-foot two point shot (Kirk Hinrich assists) 16-12
7:09 16-12 Quentin Richardson misses 25-foot three point jumper
7:07 Joe Smith defensive rebound 16-12
6:52 Chris Duhon misses three point jumper 16-12
6:50 16-12 Zach Randolph defensive rebound
6:37 16-12 Zach Randolph misses 21-foot jumper
6:35 16-12 Quentin Richardson misses tip shot
6:35 16-12 Quentin Richardson offensive rebound
6:35 16-12 Jared Jeffries offensive rebound
6:20 16-12 Zach Randolph misses 9-foot jumper
6:18 16-12 David Lee offensive rebound
6:16 16-14 David Lee makes layup
6:01 Joe Smith bad pass (Nate Robinson steals) 16-14
5:56 16-16 David Lee makes two point shot (Nate Robinson assists)
5:56 Joe Smith shooting foul (David Lee draws the foul) 16-16
5:56 New York full timeout
5:56 Ben Gordon enters the game for Chris Duhon 16-16
5:56 16-16 Fred Jones enters the game for Jared Jeffries
5:56 16-17 David Lee makes free throw 1 of 1
5:41 Joe Smith bad pass (Quentin Richardson steals) 16-17
5:33 16-17 Zach Randolph misses 9-foot jumper
6:35 16-17 Jared Jeffries misses tip shot
5:31 Joe Smith defensive rebound 16-17
5:18 Kirk Hinrich makes 24-foot three point jumper (Luol Deng assists) 19-17
5:05 19-19 David Lee makes slam dunk (Nate Robinson assists)
4:52 Luol Deng misses 18-foot jumper 19-19
4:52 Chicago defensive rebound 19-19
4:52 Joe Smith loose ball foul (David Lee draws the foul) 19-19
4:52 19-19 Eddy Curry enters the game for Zach Randolph
4:52 Aaron Gray enters the game for Joe Smith 19-19
6:33 19-19 Jared Jeffries offensive rebound
4:37 19-19 Nate Robinson bad pass
4:26 Luol Deng bad pass 19-19
4:09 19-19 Nate Robinson misses 24-foot three point jumper
4:07 Luol Deng defensive rebound 19-19
3:49 Aaron Gray traveling 19-19
3:25 19-19 Eddy Curry misses 10-foot jumper
3:24 Kirk Hinrich defensive rebound 19-19
3:15 Kirk Hinrich makes 25-foot three point jumper (Luol Deng assists) 22-19
2:58 22-19 Eddy Curry traveling
2:58 Chicago full timeout
2:41 Luol Deng misses 20-foot jumper 22-19
2:40 22-19 David Lee defensive rebound
2:20 22-19 Nate Robinson misses 25-foot three point jumper
2:18 22-19 Eddy Curry offensive rebound
2:12 22-19 Nate Robinson traveling
2:00 Aaron Gray traveling 22-19
2:00 22-19 Mardy Collins enters the game for Nate Robinson
2:00 Andres Nocioni enters the game for Ben Wallace 22-19
1:38 22-21 Fred Jones makes 15-foot two point shot
1:25 Ben Gordon makes 16-foot jumper (Kirk Hinrich assists) 24-21
1:16 Ben Gordon shooting foul (Eddy Curry draws the foul) 24-21
1:16 24-21 Eddy Curry misses free throw 1 of 2
1:16 24-21 New York offensive rebound
1:16 24-22 Eddy Curry makes free throw 2 of 2
1:02 Ben Gordon misses jumper 24-22
1:01 Luol Deng offensive rebound 24-22
1:00 Luol Deng makes layup 26-22
0:42 26-22 Quentin Richardson traveling
0:33 26-22 Mardy Collins shooting foul (Kirk Hinrich draws the foul)
0:33 Kirk Hinrich makes free throw 1 of 2 27-22
0:33 Kirk Hinrich makes free throw 2 of 2 28-22
0:20 28-22 Eddy Curry lost ball (Luol Deng steals)
0:16 Ben Gordon makes layup (Luol Deng assists) 30-22
0:00 30-22 Fred Jones misses 34-foot three point jumper
0:00 30-22 New York offensive rebound
0:00 End of the 1st Quarter


This shows that Lee was in the game after after the Knicks fell behind in the first quarter and never caught the Bulls again...So I'm really not sure what you are referring to when you say the game was even when Lee left...

I said the game was even when Curry entered the game. You insisted we lost no ground with Curry but we lost 8 points.

Posted by bitty41:

one thing i will say about david lee - he has league wide respect...it's not just from a bunch of idiots on this board. he was invited to workout with team usa. that shows he's thought highly of by nba execs as a potential player for the team down the road.

secondly, many factors play into it:

1. he plays hard pretty much all the time
2. he was the #30 pick
3. he's white
4. and he makes less than balkman

zach is 20/10, has a bad rep, and makes basically max dollars. there's a different level of expectation for each player. lee has exceeded fans expectations while zach has dissapointed.

I agree this is all fair and pretty much encompasses the whole Lee vs Randolph debate. However I still think Lee is a bit overhyped. You look at guys like Haslem, Varejao, Bogut, McDyess and they bring the same attributes to the table but they get just a job well done. And I think the one factor that you don't mention is that for many fans Lee is the epitome of the Anti-Isiah movement.