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What Isiah said makes him worse than Imus [article]
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TrueBlue
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9/26/2007  3:40 PM
Now Isiah is somewhat Backtracking and giving himself away a little. I love what the judge said at the end.
NEW YORK (AP) -- New York Knicks coach Isiah Thomas testified on Wednesday that he never cursed at a fired team executive who has accused him of sexual harassment.

In his second day on the witness stand at a trial in federal court in Manhattan, Thomas denied allegations in a $10 million lawsuit that he repeatedly addressed the plaintiff, Anucha Browne Sanders, as "bitch" and a "ho" while they worked together at Madison Square Garden.

Degrading a woman that way "is never OK," he told the jury of five women and three men. "It is never appropriate."

Thomas added, "I've never cursed at Anucha. I've cursed around Anucha."

He also calmly downplayed a videotaped deposition in which he suggested he would be more troubled hearing a white man calling a black woman a "bitch" than if a black man said the same thing.

"It's very offensive for any man -- black, white, purple -- to call a woman a bitch," he said under questioning by one of his lawyers. Duhhh! You should have said this in the disposition and left it at that!!!!!!

Thomas, 46, also contradicted earlier testimony by Browne Sanders that during a conversation about season ticket holders, he snapped, "Bitch, I don't give a [expletive] about these white people."

Season ticket holders "are the backbone of how we all make a living," he said.

The jury was sent home early Wednesday after Thomas concluded his testimony. Closing arguments at the trial, now in its third week, were set for Thursday.

In Browne Sanders' suit, the 44-year-old former Northwestern basketball star says she was dismissed in 2005 because she dared to accuse Thomas of routinely using vulgar language in his first year and of later making unwanted sexual advances toward her. She seeks reinstatement to a job as vice president of marketing, which paid as much as $260,000 annually.

Thomas testified in the time he worked with Browne Sanders, their contact was infrequent -- he estimated a total of three hours -- and usually friendly and respectful. Sometimes they would greet each other with hugs and kisses on the cheek, but there was nothing romantic about it, he said.

"She was a co-worker and that's the way I treated her," he said.

Asked about an exchange with Browne Sanders following a Knicks game in 2005, Thomas smiled and asked, "Is that the `No love' hug?"

Thomas said he "went to give her a kiss on the cheek and she recoiled in such a way that it made me feel uncomfortable, and I said, 'What? No love today?"

He claimed he was surprised to learn later that Browne Sanders was pursuing a sexual harassment claim.

U.S. District Court Judge Gerard E. Lynch interrupted a cross-examination of Thomas after the plaintiff's attorney kept using the term "locker-room language" to refer to vulgarities central to the case.

Said Lynch: "We have spent three weeks in this courtroom using all kinds of vulgar language, so we don't have to be coy about that."



[Edited by - TrueBlue on 09-26-2007 3:15 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
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djsunyc
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9/26/2007  4:37 PM
"It's very offensive for any man -- black, white, purple -- to call a woman a bitch," he said under questioning by one of his lawyers.

jeez louise, does this guy EVER learn? now we're gonna have to hear the backlash from the green peoples coalition and the blue man group.
eViL
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9/26/2007  4:38 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
"It's very offensive for any man -- black, white, purple -- to call a woman a bitch," he said under questioning by one of his lawyers.

jeez louise, does this guy EVER learn? now we're gonna have to hear the backlash from the green peoples coalition and the blue man group.

And you said my Nixluva loves Jeff Nix joke was bad. [earl] Sheeesh. [/earl]
check out my latest hip hop project: https://soundcloud.com/michaelcro http://youtu.be/scNXshrpyZo
arkrud
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9/26/2007  10:09 PM
So looks like Isiah is very polite and soft-talking person.
But all his life he was surrounded with liars who were jealous about his success.
Bastards...
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
playa2
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9/28/2007  12:47 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by Killa4luv:


And I would likewise assume that someone who claimed to have ‘good intuition’ without any significant such experience or contact, would seem far less credible.

Lets put this sideshow to rest - I grew up in a racially diverse community. I have worked in hospitals with predominantly black and minority patients. I have mentored minority/black kids for over a decade. So call it intuition or call it empirically derived, but my opinion would stand well against yours.

Let me reiterate once again, this is not about the numbers of African Americans that idolize IT. Rather, it is a prediction of how many might be swayed or even subtly influenced by his well-publicized, irresponsible comments. And, as I've said since the beginning, it should be about the dampening and reversal of this effect by the demonstration of public disapproval by black leaders.

Why, Killa, did Isiah bring up white people in the context of the sexual harassment accusations against him? In the context of the failure to discipline Marbury for calling Anucha a bitch? The chronology of his comments is incriminating until you can explain otherwise.

Until you can justify the introduction of race in his testimony and in our discussion at large, rallying around Isiah on racial grounds remains an absolute non-sequitur. A show of African American support for Isiah makes zero strides agaist racism but it certainly engenders a pressure to assimilate that reinforces his sexist comments among black people.
Again we will have to agree to disagree, I would need some sort of survey to convince me that black kids are gonna be influenced by Isiah's remarks because I dont think his opinion holds weight among black kids, or any other section of the black population.

I dont know why he brought it up, the chronology is incriminating, and I never tried to justify his introduction of race into his testimony, I have said several times, even in this thread, that while i understand and even agree with what I think he is saying, I think its a pretty stupid thing to say publicly, especially when no one even asked him.

I never ever rallied around Isiah in any way, I had a few points in all of this which are:
1) he never said it was ok or gave quasi-approval for anyone to call a black woman a B, as many posters here and the author of the article claimed.
2) The position that you, Blue, Martin, et al are championing, namely that of concern for the misguidance of black youth, seems contrived. I really have a hard time believing you guys are motivated by concern for black children or the plight of black women. When there are so many real and serious issues black youth and black women are forced to confront, it is almost insulting to suggest that black people devote time and energy to a remark and/or alleged act by one black man against one woman.

This is really about Isiah saying some things that white people found offensive, and I can understand white people being bothered by the real remarks and the alleged remark, but to suggest that our community rally against him because of it, in the context of the things we have to deal with in this country, seems... I cant even think of the word to describe it, but its ridiculous.

Could you sub out "Isiah" and put in "Imus" and sub out "white" and put in "black" .... would your statement hold and would you believe it? Especially the "I cant even think of the word to describe it, but its ridiculous"?

It's a question, not my position.


Let's say that someone beats their spouse but doesn't go to jail. Does this give carte blanch to a stranger to beat that spouse? The excuse, "but they did it" doesn't stand up.

some blacks use phrases like that's a bad black bitch, meaning she's good at whatever she's doing and white people doesn't neccesarry use that word that way when calling a black women a bitch.

This is what Isiah could have meant when describing why sometimes it's acceptible in black community.




[Edited by - playa2 on 28-09-2007 12:51]
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
BlueSeats
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9/30/2007  1:05 PM
Is this editorial from todays NYTIMES fair?

September 30, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Jena, O. J. and the Jailing of Black America

By ORLANDO PATTERSON
Cambridge, Mass.

THE miscarriage of justice at Jena, La. — where five black high school students arrested for beating a white student were charged with attempted murder — and the resulting protest march tempts us to the view, expressed by several of the marchers, that not much has changed in traditional American racial relations. However, a remarkable series of high-profile incidents occurring elsewhere in the nation at about the same time, as well as the underlying reason for the demonstrations themselves, make it clear that the Jena case is hardly a throwback to the 1960s, but instead speaks to issues that are very much of our times.

What exactly attracted thousands of demonstrators to the small Louisiana town? While for some it was a simple case of righting a grievous local injustice, and for others an opportunity to relive the civil rights era, for most the real motive was a long overdue cry of outrage at the use of the prison system as a means of controlling young black men.

America has more than two million citizens behind bars, the highest absolute and per capita rate of incarceration in the world. Black Americans, a mere 13 percent of the population, constitute half of this country’s prisoners. A tenth of all black men between ages 20 and 35 are in jail or prison; blacks are incarcerated at over eight times the white rate.

The effect on black communities is catastrophic: one in three male African-Americans in their 30s now has a prison record, as do nearly two-thirds of all black male high school dropouts. These numbers and rates are incomparably greater than anything achieved at the height of the Jim Crow era. What’s odd is how long it has taken the African-American community to address in a forceful and thoughtful way this racially biased and utterly counterproductive situation.

How, after decades of undeniable racial progress, did we end up with this virtual gulag of racial incarceration?

Part of the answer is a law enforcement system that unfairly focuses on drug offenses and other crimes more likely to be committed by blacks, combined with draconian mandatory sentencing and an absurdly counterproductive retreat from rehabilitation as an integral method of dealing with offenders. An unrealistic fear of crime that is fed in part by politicians and the press, a tendency to emphasize punitive measures and old-fashioned racism are all at play here.

But there is another equally important cause: the simple fact that young black men commit a disproportionate number of crimes, especially violent crimes, which cannot be attributed to judicial bias, racism or economic hardships. The rate at which blacks commit homicides is seven times that of whites.

Why is this? Several incidents serendipitously occurring at around the same time as the march on Jena hint loudly at a possible answer.



In New York City, the tabloids published sensational details of the bias suit brought by a black former executive for the Knicks, Anucha Browne Sanders, who claims that she was frequently called a “bitch” and a “ho” by the Knicks coach and president, Isiah Thomas. In a video deposition, Thomas said that while it is always wrong for a white man to verbally abuse a black woman in such terms, it was “not as much ... I’m sorry to say” for a black man to do so.



Across the nation, religious African-Americans were shocked that the evangelical minister Juanita Bynum, an enormously popular source of inspiration for churchgoing black women, said she was brutally beaten in a parking lot by her estranged husband, Bishop Thomas Weeks.



O. J. Simpson, the malevolent central player in an iconic moment in the nation’s recent black-white (as well as male-female) relations, reappeared on the scene, charged with attempted burglary, kidnapping and felonious assault in Las Vegas, in what he claimed was merely an attempt to recover stolen memorabilia.

These events all point to something that has been swept under the rug for too long in black America: the crisis in relations between men and women of all classes and, as a result, the catastrophic state of black family life, especially among the poor. Isiah Thomas’s outrageous double standard shocked many blacks in New York only because he had the nerve to say out loud what is a fact of life for too many black women who must daily confront indignity and abuse in hip-hop misogyny and everyday conversation.

What is done with words is merely the verbal end of a continuum of abuse that too often ends with beatings and spousal homicide. Black relationships and families fail at high rates because women increasingly refuse to put up with this abuse. The resulting absence of fathers — some 70 percent of black babies are born to single mothers — is undoubtedly a major cause of youth delinquency.

The circumstances that far too many African-Americans face — the lack of paternal support and discipline; the requirement that single mothers work regardless of the effect on their children’s care; the hypocritical refusal of conservative politicians to put their money where their mouths are on family values; the recourse by male youths to gangs as parental substitutes; the ghetto-fabulous culture of the streets; the lack of skills among black men for the jobs and pay they want; the hypersegregation of blacks into impoverished inner-city neighborhoods — all interact perversely with the prison system that simply makes hardened criminals of nonviolent drug offenders and spits out angry men who are unemployable, unreformable and unmarriageable, closing the vicious circle.

Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and other leaders of the Jena demonstration who view events there, and the racial horror of our prisons, as solely the result of white racism are living not just in the past but in a state of denial. Even after removing racial bias in our judicial and prison system — as we should and must do — disproportionate numbers of young black men will continue to be incarcerated.

Until we view this social calamity in its entirety — by also acknowledging the central role of unstable relations among the sexes and within poor families, by placing a far higher priority on moral and social reform within troubled black communities, and by greatly expanding social services for infants and children — it will persist.

Orlando Patterson is a professor of sociology at Harvard and the author of “The Ordeal of Integration: Progress and Resentment in America’s ‘Racial’ Crisis.”

misterearl
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9/30/2007  2:26 PM
"...245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, and only 30 involving anything else."..

When one considers the history of the United States, including the exerpts from Mr Orlando Patterson, for anyone to suggest Imus' words as being worse than Isiah Thomas can be put in the same box as that of Allan Bakke in 1978.

(some Googled background)

Fueled by "angry white men," a backlash against affirmative action began to mount. To conservatives, the system was a zero-sum game that opened the door for jobs, promotions, or education to minorities while it shut the door on whites. In a country that prized the values of self-reliance and pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps, conservatives resented the idea that some unqualified minorities were getting a free ride on the American system.

"Preferential treatment" and "quotas" became expressions of contempt. Even more contentious was the accusation that some minorities enjoyed playing the role of professional victim. Why could some minorities who had also experienced terrible adversity and racism-Jews and Asians, in particular-manage to make the American way work for them without government handouts?

As historian Roger Wilkins pointed out, "blacks have a 375-year history on this continent: 245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, and only 30 involving anything else."

"Considering that Jim Crow laws and lynching existed well into the '60s, and that myriad subtler forms of racism in housing, employment, and education persisted well beyond the civil rights movement, conservatives impatient for blacks to "get over" the legacy of slavery needed to realize that slavery was just the beginning of racism in America."

Did somebody delusional?
once a knick always a knick
Killa4luv
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9/30/2007  2:30 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

Is this editorial from todays NYTIMES fair?

September 30, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Jena, O. J. and the Jailing of Black America

By ORLANDO PATTERSON
Cambridge, Mass.

THE miscarriage of justice at Jena, La. — where five black high school students arrested for beating a white student were charged with attempted murder — and the resulting protest march tempts us to the view, expressed by several of the marchers, that not much has changed in traditional American racial relations. However, a remarkable series of high-profile incidents occurring elsewhere in the nation at about the same time, as well as the underlying reason for the demonstrations themselves, make it clear that the Jena case is hardly a throwback to the 1960s, but instead speaks to issues that are very much of our times.

What exactly attracted thousands of demonstrators to the small Louisiana town? While for some it was a simple case of righting a grievous local injustice, and for others an opportunity to relive the civil rights era, for most the real motive was a long overdue cry of outrage at the use of the prison system as a means of controlling young black men.

America has more than two million citizens behind bars, the highest absolute and per capita rate of incarceration in the world. Black Americans, a mere 13 percent of the population, constitute half of this country’s prisoners. A tenth of all black men between ages 20 and 35 are in jail or prison; blacks are incarcerated at over eight times the white rate.

The effect on black communities is catastrophic: one in three male African-Americans in their 30s now has a prison record, as do nearly two-thirds of all black male high school dropouts. These numbers and rates are incomparably greater than anything achieved at the height of the Jim Crow era. What’s odd is how long it has taken the African-American community to address in a forceful and thoughtful way this racially biased and utterly counterproductive situation.

How, after decades of undeniable racial progress, did we end up with this virtual gulag of racial incarceration?

Part of the answer is a law enforcement system that unfairly focuses on drug offenses and other crimes more likely to be committed by blacks, combined with draconian mandatory sentencing and an absurdly counterproductive retreat from rehabilitation as an integral method of dealing with offenders. An unrealistic fear of crime that is fed in part by politicians and the press, a tendency to emphasize punitive measures and old-fashioned racism are all at play here.

But there is another equally important cause: the simple fact that young black men commit a disproportionate number of crimes, especially violent crimes, which cannot be attributed to judicial bias, racism or economic hardships. The rate at which blacks commit homicides is seven times that of whites.

Why is this? Several incidents serendipitously occurring at around the same time as the march on Jena hint loudly at a possible answer.



In New York City, the tabloids published sensational details of the bias suit brought by a black former executive for the Knicks, Anucha Browne Sanders, who claims that she was frequently called a “bitch” and a “ho” by the Knicks coach and president, Isiah Thomas. In a video deposition, Thomas said that while it is always wrong for a white man to verbally abuse a black woman in such terms, it was “not as much ... I’m sorry to say” for a black man to do so.



Across the nation, religious African-Americans were shocked that the evangelical minister Juanita Bynum, an enormously popular source of inspiration for churchgoing black women, said she was brutally beaten in a parking lot by her estranged husband, Bishop Thomas Weeks.



O. J. Simpson, the malevolent central player in an iconic moment in the nation’s recent black-white (as well as male-female) relations, reappeared on the scene, charged with attempted burglary, kidnapping and felonious assault in Las Vegas, in what he claimed was merely an attempt to recover stolen memorabilia.

These events all point to something that has been swept under the rug for too long in black America: the crisis in relations between men and women of all classes and, as a result, the catastrophic state of black family life, especially among the poor. Isiah Thomas’s outrageous double standard shocked many blacks in New York only because he had the nerve to say out loud what is a fact of life for too many black women who must daily confront indignity and abuse in hip-hop misogyny and everyday conversation.

What is done with words is merely the verbal end of a continuum of abuse that too often ends with beatings and spousal homicide. Black relationships and families fail at high rates because women increasingly refuse to put up with this abuse. The resulting absence of fathers — some 70 percent of black babies are born to single mothers — is undoubtedly a major cause of youth delinquency.

The circumstances that far too many African-Americans face — the lack of paternal support and discipline; the requirement that single mothers work regardless of the effect on their children’s care; the hypocritical refusal of conservative politicians to put their money where their mouths are on family values; the recourse by male youths to gangs as parental substitutes; the ghetto-fabulous culture of the streets; the lack of skills among black men for the jobs and pay they want; the hypersegregation of blacks into impoverished inner-city neighborhoods — all interact perversely with the prison system that simply makes hardened criminals of nonviolent drug offenders and spits out angry men who are unemployable, unreformable and unmarriageable, closing the vicious circle.

Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and other leaders of the Jena demonstration who view events there, and the racial horror of our prisons, as solely the result of white racism are living not just in the past but in a state of denial. Even after removing racial bias in our judicial and prison system — as we should and must do — disproportionate numbers of young black men will continue to be incarcerated.

Until we view this social calamity in its entirety — by also acknowledging the central role of unstable relations among the sexes and within poor families, by placing a far higher priority on moral and social reform within troubled black communities, and by greatly expanding social services for infants and children — it will persist.

Orlando Patterson is a professor of sociology at Harvard and the author of “The Ordeal of Integration: Progress and Resentment in America’s ‘Racial’ Crisis.”

this article, while intended, has factual misrepresentations in numerous parts of the article. The available data, especially that from the criimnal justice system do not corroborate much of his understanding about crime. Check this study out, it is a damning indictment of discrimination in the criminal justice system. http://www.civilrights.org/publications/reports/cj/justice.pdf


[Edited by - Killa4luv on 09-30-2007 2:33 PM]
BlueSeats
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9/30/2007  2:46 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:


this article, while intended, has factual misrepresentations in numerous parts of the article. The available data, especially that from the criimnal justice system do not corroborate much of his understanding about crime. Check this study out, it is a damning indictment of discrimination in the criminal justice system. http://www.civilrights.org/publications/reports/cj/justice.pdf


[Edited by - Killa4luv on 09-30-2007 2:33 PM]

Without his footnotes we don't know who's source is more accurate. And do you really consider those statistics the hinge point of the editorial?
BlueSeats
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9/30/2007  3:00 PM
Posted by misterearl:

"...245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, and only 30 involving anything else."..

When one considers the history of the United States, including the exerpts from Mr Orlando Patterson, for anyone to suggest Imus' words as being worse than Isiah Thomas can be put in the same box as that of Allan Bakke in 1978.

Did you accidentally reverse Isiah and Imus?
(some Googled background)

Fueled by "angry white men," a backlash against affirmative action began to mount. To conservatives, the system was a zero-sum game that opened the door for jobs, promotions, or education to minorities while it shut the door on whites. In a country that prized the values of self-reliance and pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps, conservatives resented the idea that some unqualified minorities were getting a free ride on the American system.

"Preferential treatment" and "quotas" became expressions of contempt. Even more contentious was the accusation that some minorities enjoyed playing the role of professional victim. Why could some minorities who had also experienced terrible adversity and racism-Jews and Asians, in particular-manage to make the American way work for them without government handouts?

As historian Roger Wilkins pointed out, "blacks have a 375-year history on this continent: 245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, and only 30 involving anything else."

"Considering that Jim Crow laws and lynching existed well into the '60s, and that myriad subtler forms of racism in housing, employment, and education persisted well beyond the civil rights movement, conservatives impatient for blacks to "get over" the legacy of slavery needed to realize that slavery was just the beginning of racism in America."

Did somebody delusional?


You brought up Imus, which the article I posted did not, so are you responding to the article or ignoring it?

How about trying to answer in your own words.
Killa4luv
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9/30/2007  4:32 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Killa4luv:


this article, while intended, has factual misrepresentations in numerous parts of the article. The available data, especially that from the criimnal justice system do not corroborate much of his understanding about crime. Check this study out, it is a damning indictment of discrimination in the criminal justice system. http://www.civilrights.org/publications/reports/cj/justice.pdf


[Edited by - Killa4luv on 09-30-2007 2:33 PM]

Without his footnotes we don't know who's source is more accurate. And do you really consider those statistics the hinge point of the editorial?
Theres some powerful truths in what hes saying and he seems concerned, but I have problems with parts of it. I'll be back to that later tonight. Oh, and the link I provided has footnotes on each and every page. It is an academic study, we definitely know it is more accurate.

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 09-30-2007 4:33 PM]

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 09-30-2007 4:38 PM]
BlueSeats
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9/30/2007  4:43 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Killa4luv:


this article, while intended, has factual misrepresentations in numerous parts of the article. The available data, especially that from the criimnal justice system do not corroborate much of his understanding about crime. Check this study out, it is a damning indictment of discrimination in the criminal justice system. http://www.civilrights.org/publications/reports/cj/justice.pdf


[Edited by - Killa4luv on 09-30-2007 2:33 PM]

Without his footnotes we don't know who's source is more accurate. And do you really consider those statistics the hinge point of the editorial?
I'll be back to you on that, but he bases his conclusions on something other than data (which is available, btw), so I obviously have a problem with that. Theres some powerful truths in what hes saying and he seems concerned, but I have problems with significant parts of it. I'll be back to that later tonight. Oh, and the link I provided has footnotes on each and every page. It is an academic study, we definitely know it is more accurate.

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 09-30-2007 4:33 PM]


Killa, it's specious to say he's basing his conclusions on "something other than data" simply because editorial policy doesn't require, or perhpas allow, that he cite them on their Op-Ed page. And you linked to a 60 page document without establishing 1) which statistics of his you question, or 2) which statistics in those 60 pages you consider more accurate, so you've hardly proven anythig yourself. The man is a Harvard professor and published author so I really don't know why you'd suppose him to be incapable of citing sources when and where required to do so.

In any case, I look forward to your more substantive replies.
Killa4luv
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9/30/2007  4:56 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Killa4luv:


this article, while intended, has factual misrepresentations in numerous parts of the article. The available data, especially that from the criimnal justice system do not corroborate much of his understanding about crime. Check this study out, it is a damning indictment of discrimination in the criminal justice system. http://www.civilrights.org/publications/reports/cj/justice.pdf


[Edited by - Killa4luv on 09-30-2007 2:33 PM]

Without his footnotes we don't know who's source is more accurate. And do you really consider those statistics the hinge point of the editorial?
I'll be back to you on that, but he bases his conclusions on something other than data (which is available, btw), so I obviously have a problem with that. Theres some powerful truths in what hes saying and he seems concerned, but I have problems with significant parts of it. I'll be back to that later tonight. Oh, and the link I provided has footnotes on each and every page. It is an academic study, we definitely know it is more accurate.

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 09-30-2007 4:33 PM]


Killa, it's specious to say he's basing his conclusions on "something other than data" simply because editorial policy doesn't require, or perhpas allow, that he cite them on their Op-Ed page. And you linked to a 60 page document without establishing 1) which statistics of his you question, or 2) which statistics in those 60 pages you consider more accurate, so you've hardly proven anythig yourself. The man is a Harvard professor and published author so I really don't know why you'd suppose him to be incapable of citing sources when and where required to do so.

In any case, I look forward to your more substantive replies.

If you'll notice I changed my post, before you had even replied. I rushed to respond mainly to tell you I'll be back to it, so take it easy brother. I think this is going to be alot more fun AND productive than some of the other discussions.

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 09-30-2007 4:57 PM]
arkrud
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9/30/2007  5:21 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by BlueSeats:

Is this editorial from todays NYTIMES fair?

September 30, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Jena, O. J. and the Jailing of Black America

By ORLANDO PATTERSON
Cambridge, Mass.

THE miscarriage of justice at Jena, La. — where five black high school students arrested for beating a white student were charged with attempted murder — and the resulting protest march tempts us to the view, expressed by several of the marchers, that not much has changed in traditional American racial relations. However, a remarkable series of high-profile incidents occurring elsewhere in the nation at about the same time, as well as the underlying reason for the demonstrations themselves, make it clear that the Jena case is hardly a throwback to the 1960s, but instead speaks to issues that are very much of our times.

What exactly attracted thousands of demonstrators to the small Louisiana town? While for some it was a simple case of righting a grievous local injustice, and for others an opportunity to relive the civil rights era, for most the real motive was a long overdue cry of outrage at the use of the prison system as a means of controlling young black men.

America has more than two million citizens behind bars, the highest absolute and per capita rate of incarceration in the world. Black Americans, a mere 13 percent of the population, constitute half of this country’s prisoners. A tenth of all black men between ages 20 and 35 are in jail or prison; blacks are incarcerated at over eight times the white rate.

The effect on black communities is catastrophic: one in three male African-Americans in their 30s now has a prison record, as do nearly two-thirds of all black male high school dropouts. These numbers and rates are incomparably greater than anything achieved at the height of the Jim Crow era. What’s odd is how long it has taken the African-American community to address in a forceful and thoughtful way this racially biased and utterly counterproductive situation.

How, after decades of undeniable racial progress, did we end up with this virtual gulag of racial incarceration?

Part of the answer is a law enforcement system that unfairly focuses on drug offenses and other crimes more likely to be committed by blacks, combined with draconian mandatory sentencing and an absurdly counterproductive retreat from rehabilitation as an integral method of dealing with offenders. An unrealistic fear of crime that is fed in part by politicians and the press, a tendency to emphasize punitive measures and old-fashioned racism are all at play here.

But there is another equally important cause: the simple fact that young black men commit a disproportionate number of crimes, especially violent crimes, which cannot be attributed to judicial bias, racism or economic hardships. The rate at which blacks commit homicides is seven times that of whites.

Why is this? Several incidents serendipitously occurring at around the same time as the march on Jena hint loudly at a possible answer.



In New York City, the tabloids published sensational details of the bias suit brought by a black former executive for the Knicks, Anucha Browne Sanders, who claims that she was frequently called a “bitch” and a “ho” by the Knicks coach and president, Isiah Thomas. In a video deposition, Thomas said that while it is always wrong for a white man to verbally abuse a black woman in such terms, it was “not as much ... I’m sorry to say” for a black man to do so.



Across the nation, religious African-Americans were shocked that the evangelical minister Juanita Bynum, an enormously popular source of inspiration for churchgoing black women, said she was brutally beaten in a parking lot by her estranged husband, Bishop Thomas Weeks.



O. J. Simpson, the malevolent central player in an iconic moment in the nation’s recent black-white (as well as male-female) relations, reappeared on the scene, charged with attempted burglary, kidnapping and felonious assault in Las Vegas, in what he claimed was merely an attempt to recover stolen memorabilia.

These events all point to something that has been swept under the rug for too long in black America: the crisis in relations between men and women of all classes and, as a result, the catastrophic state of black family life, especially among the poor. Isiah Thomas’s outrageous double standard shocked many blacks in New York only because he had the nerve to say out loud what is a fact of life for too many black women who must daily confront indignity and abuse in hip-hop misogyny and everyday conversation.

What is done with words is merely the verbal end of a continuum of abuse that too often ends with beatings and spousal homicide. Black relationships and families fail at high rates because women increasingly refuse to put up with this abuse. The resulting absence of fathers — some 70 percent of black babies are born to single mothers — is undoubtedly a major cause of youth delinquency.

The circumstances that far too many African-Americans face — the lack of paternal support and discipline; the requirement that single mothers work regardless of the effect on their children’s care; the hypocritical refusal of conservative politicians to put their money where their mouths are on family values; the recourse by male youths to gangs as parental substitutes; the ghetto-fabulous culture of the streets; the lack of skills among black men for the jobs and pay they want; the hypersegregation of blacks into impoverished inner-city neighborhoods — all interact perversely with the prison system that simply makes hardened criminals of nonviolent drug offenders and spits out angry men who are unemployable, unreformable and unmarriageable, closing the vicious circle.

Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and other leaders of the Jena demonstration who view events there, and the racial horror of our prisons, as solely the result of white racism are living not just in the past but in a state of denial. Even after removing racial bias in our judicial and prison system — as we should and must do — disproportionate numbers of young black men will continue to be incarcerated.

Until we view this social calamity in its entirety — by also acknowledging the central role of unstable relations among the sexes and within poor families, by placing a far higher priority on moral and social reform within troubled black communities, and by greatly expanding social services for infants and children — it will persist.

Orlando Patterson is a professor of sociology at Harvard and the author of “The Ordeal of Integration: Progress and Resentment in America’s ‘Racial’ Crisis.”

this article, while intended, has factual misrepresentations in numerous parts of the article. The available data, especially that from the criimnal justice system do not corroborate much of his understanding about crime. Check this study out, it is a damning indictment of discrimination in the criminal justice system. http://www.civilrights.org/publications/reports/cj/justice.pdf


[Edited by - Killa4luv on 09-30-2007 2:33 PM]

This article is shocking. If the numbers are right this is really huge problem.
The "Affirmative action" parctice is not only making the US Constitution and Bill Of Rights a joke but also does't work at all other that angry Asian Americans.
But it is interesting to see more facts and views.






"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Killa4luv
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10/1/2007  11:35 PM
Jena, O. J. and the Jailing of Black America
By ORLANDO PATTERSON
Cambridge, Mass.
THE miscarriage of justice at Jena, La. — where five black high school students arrested for beating a white student were charged with attempted murder — and the resulting protest march tempts us to the view, expressed by several of the marchers, that not much has changed in traditional American racial relations. However, a remarkable series of high-profile incidents occurring elsewhere in the nation at about the same time, as well as the underlying reason for the demonstrations themselves, make it clear that the Jena case is hardly a throwback to the 1960s, but instead speaks to issues that are very much of our times.
What exactly attracted thousands of demonstrators to the small Louisiana town? While for some it was a simple case of righting a grievous local injustice, and for others an opportunity to relive the civil rights era, for most the real motive was a long overdue cry of outrage at the use of the prison system as a means of controlling young black men.
Absolutely Agree here, and the disconnect between whites and blacks here is that most white people do not see this happening, and do not notice that the courts are used more often and more harshly when black males are involved. If the courts did this to white children, it would have been stopped a long time ago.
America has more than two million citizens behind bars, the highest absolute and per capita rate of incarceration in the world. Black Americans, a mere 13 percent of the population, constitute half of this country’s prisoners. A tenth of all black men between ages 20 and 35 are in jail or prison; blacks are incarcerated at over eight times the white rate.
The effect on black communities is catastrophic: one in three male African-Americans in their 30s now has a prison record, as do nearly two-thirds of all black male high school dropouts. These numbers and rates are incomparably greater than anything achieved at the height of the Jim Crow era. What’s odd is how long it has taken the African-American community to address in a forceful and thoughtful way this racially biased and utterly counterproductive situation.
I don’t think its particularly odd. The black community is saddled with many issues, and those issues make it more difficult for the community to come together and attack them. It’s a paradox. Why don’t we come out to address the issues? Because the issues we need to address are often getting the better of us. Plus, like most Americans, we are manipulated by the media, and the media helps to determine what issues get the spotlight, and as a result, what gets dealt with. And moreso than most Americans, a siginificant segment of the community feels hopeless to change any of this stuff it because it has been going on for so long. We have historically had to fight society so hard for basic things (like voting, and equal oppurtunity) that as times change and problems change and some of the responsibility begins to fall on our shoulders, it becomes uncomfortable to deal with. It isnt uncomfortable for me to deal with, I am very clear on what my community needs to do, its just uncomfortable and difficult to talk with white people about it.
How, after decades of undeniable racial progress, did we end up with this virtual gulag of racial incarceration?
Part of the answer is a law enforcement system that unfairly focuses on drug offenses and other crimes more likely to be committed by blacks, combined with draconian mandatory sentencing and an absurdly counterproductive retreat from rehabilitation as an integral method of dealing with offenders. An unrealistic fear of crime that is fed in part by politicians and the press, a tendency to emphasize punitive measures and old-fashioned racism are all at play here.
Not just drug crimes (white people uses more drugs , but particular kinds of drug crimes: it takes 5 grams of crack for a mandatory minimum of 5 years, yet it takes 500 grams of cocaine for the same sentence. Is 5 grams of crack really 100 times worse than 500 grams of cocaine? In addition, police exercise a tremendous amount of discretion in terms of who to suspect, stop, arrest, etc,. In both cases, laws are created and discretion is excercised, in a way that aims, not at addressing crime in a uniform manner, but in a way that addresses a certain kind of law breaker, and punishes them harsher than others. This is institutionalized racism.
But there is another equally important cause: the simple fact that young black men commit a disproportionate number of crimes, especially violent crimes, which cannot be attributed to judicial bias, racism or economic hardships. The rate at which blacks commit homicides is seven times that of whites.
These numbers exist because of a history of judicial bias, racism, and/or economic hardships. They are the result of years of those things. There is no way to divorce one from the other, and this is the beginning of our disagreement. For example of we've had these things to deal with in the past which have destroyed our community, sent scores of men to prison, ripped apart families, etc. what happens to the men when they come home, or the women they left, or the kids who grew up without them? The cycle not only continues, it grows. These types of people will tend to have more children than a family where both parents have a college degree (like mine). So yes the violence continues or even grows, we have scores of people who have been scarred by conditions in the ghetto.
Why is this? Several incidents serendipitously occurring at around the same time as the march on Jena hint loudly at a possible answer.
I dont find these anecdotes very useful in any way other than to connect his data to current events. They dont prove anything. Talk about spurious.

In New York City, the tabloids published sensational details of the bias suit brought by a black former executive for the Knicks, Anucha Browne Sanders, who claims that she was frequently called a “bitch” and a “ho” by the Knicks coach and president, Isiah Thomas. In a video deposition, Thomas said that while it is always wrong for a white man to verbally abuse a black woman in such terms, it was “not as much ... I’m sorry to say” for a black man to do so.

Across the nation, religious African-Americans were shocked that the evangelical minister Juanita Bynum, an enormously popular source of inspiration for churchgoing black women, said she was brutally beaten in a parking lot by her estranged husband, Bishop Thomas Weeks.

O. J. Simpson, the malevolent central player in an iconic moment in the nation’s recent black-white (as well as male-female) relations, reappeared on the scene, charged with attempted burglary, kidnapping and felonious assault in Las Vegas, in what he claimed was merely an attempt to recover stolen memorabilia.
These events all point to something that has been swept under the rug for too long in black America: the crisis in relations between men and women of all classes and, as a result, the catastrophic state of black family life, especially among the poor. Isiah Thomas’s outrageous double standard shocked many blacks in New York only because he had the nerve to say out loud what is a fact of life for too many black women who must daily confront indignity and abuse in hip-hop misogyny and everyday conversation.
What is done with words is merely the verbal end of a continuum of abuse that too often ends with beatings and spousal homicide. Black relationships and families fail at high rates because women increasingly refuse to put up with this abuse.
This is where he and I disagree. He is flatly saying that black relationships fail because of violence against black women by black men, and there is no data that makes that claim. The data says that Black women deal with a higher rate of domestic abuse, but its my opinion that the same thing that causes some black men to be abusive, is the same thing that causes some black male-female relationships to fail at high rates. In other words, domestic violence is a symptom of larger problems and not thee problem itself. Black women experience a higher rate of domestic violence and so do black men!! The picture he is painting makes it seem as if black women have everything together and black men are just beating them down. While Black women, on average, do achieve greater success than black men, there is a dysfunction in the black community, particularly in the poor black community, which I would say effects both sexes more or less equally.

Furthermore, to support the argument that domestic violence is born from other social problems in the community, chew on these facts: Current data indicate that despite a more than two-decade decline, African American women continue to experience a higher rate of intimate partner homicide compared to women of other races. In addition, African American women's rates of intimate partner violence are higher than every other group's, except American Indian women (U.S. Department of Justice, 2001).
So black women and American Indian women have something in common, domestic violence. Well what else do they have in common? Centuries of brutal racism and various forms of state-sponsored oppression. We have had to deal with a similar kind of ordeal and have developed some similar community problems. I dont think thats a coincidence.
The resulting absence of fathers — some 70 percent of black babies are born to single mothers — is undoubtedly a major cause of youth delinquency.
I agree with this as well, although he attributes this mainly to domestic violence and I disagree. The causes of this are far more complex, than domestic violence, imo.
The circumstances that far too many African-Americans face — the lack of paternal support and discipline; the requirement that single mothers work regardless of the effect on their children’s care; the hypocritical refusal of conservative politicians to put their money where their mouths are on family values; the recourse by male youths to gangs as parental substitutes; the ghetto-fabulous culture of the streets; the lack of skills among black men for the jobs and pay they want; the hypersegregation of blacks into impoverished inner-city neighborhoods — all interact perversely with the prison system that simply makes hardened criminals of nonviolent drug offenders and spits out angry men who are unemployable, unreformable and unmarriageable, closing the vicious circle.
Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and other leaders of the Jena demonstration who view events there, and the racial horror of our prisons, as solely the result of white racism are living not just in the past but in a state of denial. Even after removing racial bias in our judicial and prison system — as we should and must do — disproportionate numbers of young black men will continue to be incarcerated.
He doesn’t ever give an explanation for why this is so. My position is this: If, you could remove racial bias in the criminal justice black males will continue to go to prison, because a history of incarceration, economic hardship, racism and social oppression have endured long enough to have a lasting impact on our community. People are products of their environements and drugs, poverty, alcoholism, violence, etc. have been allowed to thrive in our communities for decades. If we could eliminate all of those problems with the snap of a finger, our people would still be dealing with their impact for generations to come.
Until we view this social calamity in its entirety — by also acknowledging the central role of unstable relations among the sexes and within poor families, by placing a far higher priority on moral and social reform within troubled black communities, and by greatly expanding social services for infants and children — it will persist.
I do not agree with a central part of his article about unstable relations between the sexes being the chief problem, although I do agree too many of them are unstable. I just think those unstable relations are symptomatic of other issues. I think the situation is much more complicated than his analysis leads one to believe. However, I think I agree with his solution which is that the community has a responsibility to itself regardless of what obstacles have been, and still are placed before it; and I believe the greater society has a responsibility to right a wrong that it has had a heavy hand in creating. And I believe our community should waste no time waiting for the society get it right. If history has taught us anything, it is that waiting on society to do the right thing is a bad idea.
arkrud
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10/2/2007  12:42 AM
It's a great analysis killa and very informative for people who know nothing or close to nothing about the problems of African-American community.
I do think that the education and focus on children can be a huge step forward and I know for sure that it is no way the society and government will help.
The experience of my culture over more than 2000 years of discrimination and oppression is clearly shows that nobody can help but you. And the main reason why Jews managed not only to preserve their cultural values but produce superior results in all areas of live, science, arts, business, and humanity is the extreme caring about children and education on all levels.
Another part of it is rejecting the violence and ability to cooperate with people everywhere in the world and contribute the progress of human race on all levels. We always stick together and we always give the helping hand to everybody outside and inside our inner circle.
I want to clarify that I am not talking about religion but about culture which is much more that religion.
The society which abandoned their children is on the path to nowhere. And a lot of cultures and nations vanished this way. Can you get out of this dead end? It’s all in your hands.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
CrushAlot
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10/3/2007  7:41 PM
Imus is supposed to be back on the air soon in NY. Rumor is that he is going to be hired by WABC as their morning man.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
newyorknewyork
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10/4/2007  12:42 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:

Not just drug crimes (white people uses more drugs , but particular kinds of drug crimes: it takes 5 grams of crack for a mandatory minimum of 5 years, yet it takes 500 grams of cocaine for the same sentence. Is 5 grams of crack really 100 times worse than 500 grams of cocaine? In addition, police exercise a tremendous amount of discretion in terms of who to suspect, stop, arrest, etc,. In both cases, laws are created and discretion is excercised, in a way that aims, not at addressing crime in a uniform manner, but in a way that addresses a certain kind of law breaker, and punishes them harsher than others. This is institutionalized racism

He doesn’t ever give an explanation for why this is so. My position is this: If, you could remove racial bias in the criminal justice black males will continue to go to prison, because a history of incarceration, economic hardship, racism and social oppression have endured long enough to have a lasting impact on our community. People are products of their environements and drugs, poverty, alcoholism, violence, etc. have been allowed to thrive in our communities for decades. If we could eliminate all of those problems with the snap of a finger, our people would still be dealing with their impact for generations to come.


[quote]I do not agree with a central part of his article about unstable relations between the sexes being the chief problem, although I do agree too many of them are unstable. I just think those unstable relations are symptomatic of other issues. I think the situation is much more complicated than his analysis leads one to believe. However, I think I agree with his solution which is that the community has a responsibility to itself regardless of what obstacles have been, and still are placed before it; and I believe the greater society has a responsibility to right a wrong that it has had a heavy hand in creating. And I believe our community should waste no time waiting for the society get it right. If history has taught us anything, it is that waiting on society to do the right thing is a bad idea.

Great post Killa. The 3 highlighted paragraphs are huge issues. Makes you want to ask the question does anyone even care about the black community.

Breaking it down though all the way to the roots. I would say it begins with the view that african americans have to work twice as hard as caucasions to have less or same success in the corperate world & buisness world. This is a big reasoning why african americans have dominated the sports world(mainly basketball & football) as players & hip hop as entertainers. Or have given up on education all together to sell drugs. As talent alone in these areas can get you out of poverty even without great education from schooling.

A big step in trying to fix the black community. African americans will first need to feel that they don't have to work twice as hard to make it in the corperate & buisness world. This in turn would promote education. Building education in the black community would go a long way in eliminating drugs and helping with poverty. I think I can safely say, though I don't have any #s to back me up. That poverty is the #1 reason for crime in the black community. Just like its the #1 reason for divorce. And in order for african americans to feel that we don't have to work twice as hard to make it in the corperate & buisness world. We need to see more successfull black corperate and buisness men to look up to and aspire to be. There has to be more. Jay Z who was a drug dealer, turned rapper, turned rich buisness man is probably the biggest role model to the young adults in the black community. And you can see many young african americans trying to follow the same road.

What needs to go are the tons of liquior stores(not all of them but there is just to many) & the massive amount of drugs. What needs to come in are more librarys, history museums(of all races), and more after school activities.
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BlueSeats
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10/4/2007  1:52 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Jena, O. J. and the Jailing of Black America
By ORLANDO PATTERSON
Cambridge, Mass.
THE miscarriage of justice at Jena, La. — where five black high school students arrested for beating a white student were charged with attempted murder — and the resulting protest march tempts us to the view, expressed by several of the marchers, that not much has changed in traditional American racial relations. However, a remarkable series of high-profile incidents occurring elsewhere in the nation at about the same time, as well as the underlying reason for the demonstrations themselves, make it clear that the Jena case is hardly a throwback to the 1960s, but instead speaks to issues that are very much of our times.
What exactly attracted thousands of demonstrators to the small Louisiana town? While for some it was a simple case of righting a grievous local injustice, and for others an opportunity to relive the civil rights era, for most the real motive was a long overdue cry of outrage at the use of the prison system as a means of controlling young black men.
Absolutely Agree here, and the disconnect between whites and blacks here is that most white people do not see this happening, and do not notice that the courts are used more often and more harshly when black males are involved. If the courts did this to white children, it would have been stopped a long time ago.
America has more than two million citizens behind bars, the highest absolute and per capita rate of incarceration in the world. Black Americans, a mere 13 percent of the population, constitute half of this country’s prisoners. A tenth of all black men between ages 20 and 35 are in jail or prison; blacks are incarcerated at over eight times the white rate.
The effect on black communities is catastrophic: one in three male African-Americans in their 30s now has a prison record, as do nearly two-thirds of all black male high school dropouts. These numbers and rates are incomparably greater than anything achieved at the height of the Jim Crow era. What’s odd is how long it has taken the African-American community to address in a forceful and thoughtful way this racially biased and utterly counterproductive situation.
I don’t think its particularly odd. The black community is saddled with many issues, and those issues make it more difficult for the community to come together and attack them. It’s a paradox. Why don’t we come out to address the issues? Because the issues we need to address are often getting the better of us. Plus, like most Americans, we are manipulated by the media, and the media helps to determine what issues get the spotlight, and as a result, what gets dealt with. And moreso than most Americans, a siginificant segment of the community feels hopeless to change any of this stuff it because it has been going on for so long. We have historically had to fight society so hard for basic things (like voting, and equal oppurtunity) that as times change and problems change and some of the responsibility begins to fall on our shoulders, it becomes uncomfortable to deal with. It isnt uncomfortable for me to deal with, I am very clear on what my community needs to do, its just uncomfortable and difficult to talk with white people about it.
How, after decades of undeniable racial progress, did we end up with this virtual gulag of racial incarceration?
Part of the answer is a law enforcement system that unfairly focuses on drug offenses and other crimes more likely to be committed by blacks, combined with draconian mandatory sentencing and an absurdly counterproductive retreat from rehabilitation as an integral method of dealing with offenders. An unrealistic fear of crime that is fed in part by politicians and the press, a tendency to emphasize punitive measures and old-fashioned racism are all at play here.
Not just drug crimes (white people uses more drugs , but particular kinds of drug crimes: it takes 5 grams of crack for a mandatory minimum of 5 years, yet it takes 500 grams of cocaine for the same sentence. Is 5 grams of crack really 100 times worse than 500 grams of cocaine? In addition, police exercise a tremendous amount of discretion in terms of who to suspect, stop, arrest, etc,. In both cases, laws are created and discretion is excercised, in a way that aims, not at addressing crime in a uniform manner, but in a way that addresses a certain kind of law breaker, and punishes them harsher than others. This is institutionalized racism.
But there is another equally important cause: the simple fact that young black men commit a disproportionate number of crimes, especially violent crimes, which cannot be attributed to judicial bias, racism or economic hardships. The rate at which blacks commit homicides is seven times that of whites.
These numbers exist because of a history of judicial bias, racism, and/or economic hardships. They are the result of years of those things. There is no way to divorce one from the other, and this is the beginning of our disagreement. For example of we've had these things to deal with in the past which have destroyed our community, sent scores of men to prison, ripped apart families, etc. what happens to the men when they come home, or the women they left, or the kids who grew up without them? The cycle not only continues, it grows. These types of people will tend to have more children than a family where both parents have a college degree (like mine). So yes the violence continues or even grows, we have scores of people who have been scarred by conditions in the ghetto.
Why is this? Several incidents serendipitously occurring at around the same time as the march on Jena hint loudly at a possible answer.
I dont find these anecdotes very useful in any way other than to connect his data to current events. They dont prove anything. Talk about spurious.

In New York City, the tabloids published sensational details of the bias suit brought by a black former executive for the Knicks, Anucha Browne Sanders, who claims that she was frequently called a “bitch” and a “ho” by the Knicks coach and president, Isiah Thomas. In a video deposition, Thomas said that while it is always wrong for a white man to verbally abuse a black woman in such terms, it was “not as much ... I’m sorry to say” for a black man to do so.

Across the nation, religious African-Americans were shocked that the evangelical minister Juanita Bynum, an enormously popular source of inspiration for churchgoing black women, said she was brutally beaten in a parking lot by her estranged husband, Bishop Thomas Weeks.

O. J. Simpson, the malevolent central player in an iconic moment in the nation’s recent black-white (as well as male-female) relations, reappeared on the scene, charged with attempted burglary, kidnapping and felonious assault in Las Vegas, in what he claimed was merely an attempt to recover stolen memorabilia.
These events all point to something that has been swept under the rug for too long in black America: the crisis in relations between men and women of all classes and, as a result, the catastrophic state of black family life, especially among the poor. Isiah Thomas’s outrageous double standard shocked many blacks in New York only because he had the nerve to say out loud what is a fact of life for too many black women who must daily confront indignity and abuse in hip-hop misogyny and everyday conversation.
What is done with words is merely the verbal end of a continuum of abuse that too often ends with beatings and spousal homicide. Black relationships and families fail at high rates because women increasingly refuse to put up with this abuse.
This is where he and I disagree. He is flatly saying that black relationships fail because of violence against black women by black men, and there is no data that makes that claim. The data says that Black women deal with a higher rate of domestic abuse, but its my opinion that the same thing that causes some black men to be abusive, is the same thing that causes some black male-female relationships to fail at high rates. In other words, domestic violence is a symptom of larger problems and not thee problem itself. Black women experience a higher rate of domestic violence and so do black men!! The picture he is painting makes it seem as if black women have everything together and black men are just beating them down. While Black women, on average, do achieve greater success than black men, there is a dysfunction in the black community, particularly in the poor black community, which I would say effects both sexes more or less equally.

Furthermore, to support the argument that domestic violence is born from other social problems in the community, chew on these facts: Current data indicate that despite a more than two-decade decline, African American women continue to experience a higher rate of intimate partner homicide compared to women of other races. In addition, African American women's rates of intimate partner violence are higher than every other group's, except American Indian women (U.S. Department of Justice, 2001).
So black women and American Indian women have something in common, domestic violence. Well what else do they have in common? Centuries of brutal racism and various forms of state-sponsored oppression. We have had to deal with a similar kind of ordeal and have developed some similar community problems. I dont think thats a coincidence.
The resulting absence of fathers — some 70 percent of black babies are born to single mothers — is undoubtedly a major cause of youth delinquency.
I agree with this as well, although he attributes this mainly to domestic violence and I disagree. The causes of this are far more complex, than domestic violence, imo.
The circumstances that far too many African-Americans face — the lack of paternal support and discipline; the requirement that single mothers work regardless of the effect on their children’s care; the hypocritical refusal of conservative politicians to put their money where their mouths are on family values; the recourse by male youths to gangs as parental substitutes; the ghetto-fabulous culture of the streets; the lack of skills among black men for the jobs and pay they want; the hypersegregation of blacks into impoverished inner-city neighborhoods — all interact perversely with the prison system that simply makes hardened criminals of nonviolent drug offenders and spits out angry men who are unemployable, unreformable and unmarriageable, closing the vicious circle.
Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and other leaders of the Jena demonstration who view events there, and the racial horror of our prisons, as solely the result of white racism are living not just in the past but in a state of denial. Even after removing racial bias in our judicial and prison system — as we should and must do — disproportionate numbers of young black men will continue to be incarcerated.
He doesn’t ever give an explanation for why this is so. My position is this: If, you could remove racial bias in the criminal justice black males will continue to go to prison, because a history of incarceration, economic hardship, racism and social oppression have endured long enough to have a lasting impact on our community. People are products of their environements and drugs, poverty, alcoholism, violence, etc. have been allowed to thrive in our communities for decades. If we could eliminate all of those problems with the snap of a finger, our people would still be dealing with their impact for generations to come.
Until we view this social calamity in its entirety — by also acknowledging the central role of unstable relations among the sexes and within poor families, by placing a far higher priority on moral and social reform within troubled black communities, and by greatly expanding social services for infants and children — it will persist.

I do not agree with a central part of his article about unstable relations between the sexes being the chief problem, although I do agree too many of them are unstable. I just think those unstable relations are symptomatic of other issues. I think the situation is much more complicated than his analysis leads one to believe. However, I think I agree with his solution which is that the community has a responsibility to itself regardless of what obstacles have been, and still are placed before it; and I believe the greater society has a responsibility to right a wrong that it has had a heavy hand in creating. And I believe our community should waste no time waiting for the society get it right. If history has taught us anything, it is that waiting on society to do the right thing is a bad idea.


Killa, you did a beautiful job here. You gave me a lot to contemplate and I am in not able to validate or invalidate your positions, I will simply consider them ongoingly.

You pulled us together in the last paragraph. Until then it Iooked as if you were suggesting there was little blacks could do until the institutions were set right, which would be impractical and self defeating.

I do feel that you might perhaps be exaggerating the differences between yourself and Mr Patterson. I doubt he'd dispute what you pose as the problems, he just seems to think there is more that blacks can do now on the family level to offset them to one degree or another. Or perhaps he feels the effects of such measures would be greater than you do. Either way: don't do drugs, don't beat your wife, don't alienate yourself from your household, don't let your behavior encourage kids to disrespect their mothers/caretakers, do be there for your kids. This is good advice for any man of any race, so why not start there?

[Edited by - blueseats on 10-04-2007 1:56 PM]
TMS
Posts: 60684
Alba Posts: 617
Joined: 5/11/2004
Member: #674
USA
10/4/2007  2:31 PM
Michael Kay was harping over the fact that he can't understand why there doesn't seem to be any outrage from women's groups or other special interest groups over this whole scandal... i can't say i disagree w/him either... i guess certain people get judged on a different scale.

[Edited by - TMS on 10-04-2007 2:32 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
What Isiah said makes him worse than Imus [article]

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