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Bulls' future vs. Knicks


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Bonn1997
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Which team has a brighter future?
Bulls
Knicks
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islesfan
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5/15/2007  10:59 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by EnySpree:



Anyway, the bulls if anything did a good job of picking some heady, pro-ready players. As far as a structured team they are just lucky as all hell. Who would have thought Ben gordan would be a all-star calibur shooting guard.

the GM that took him 3rd overall

paxson's draft picks:

2004: hinrich (2nd round - austin, bonner)
2005: gordon, deng (2nd round - duhon)
2006: no picks
2007: tyrus, thabo

the guy knows how to draft

Paxson picks all stars and starters, gets the better of GM's in trades and manages the cap well.

Isiah picks role players and backups, gets bent over in trades and ignores the cap.

How could you not be more excited about the Knicks future than the Bulls??? And to think, Isiah has only been on the job 8 months less than Paxson.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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Bonn1997
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5/15/2007  11:01 PM
The Bulls have won 55 games so far this year (reg and post season). It took us the last TWO seasons to win 56 games!
islesfan
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5/15/2007  11:06 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

The Bulls have won 55 games so far this year (reg and post season). It took us the last TWO seasons to win 56 games!

That's not fair. You're not counting preseason or summer league.

The Knicks have won at least 60 games in the last 2 years.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
nixluva
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5/16/2007  12:13 AM
Posted by islesfan:

paxson's draft picks:

2004: hinrich (2nd round - austin, bonner)
2005: gordon, deng (2nd round - duhon)
2006: no picks
2007: tyrus, thabo

the guy knows how to draft

Paxson picks all stars and starters, gets the better of GM's in trades and manages the cap well.

Isiah picks role players and backups, gets bent over in trades and ignores the cap.

How could you not be more excited about the Knicks future than the Bulls??? And to think, Isiah has only been on the job 8 months less than Paxson.
[/quote]

Do we have to keep rehashing this point everytime we talk about this subject? Pax is a GREAT GM and is doing a GREAT job. His situation was different than Isiah's tho. Isiah came into a disaster and had an edict from Dolan not to rebuild but to retool and get the team back to the playoffs. WHY? Cuz he had millions invested in H2O and others and it wasn't yet clear that H2O wouldn't be able to continue his career. So right there the Knicks were delayed in their process for remaking the team with youth. Dolan didn't really want that. The Bulls had already been years into the process of trying to rebuild thru the draft and had failed miserably for a long time. So I applaud the job that Pax has done.

I think Isiah is starting to put a good team together. Despite Dolan's desire for trying to buy his way back into the playoffs. Isiah has done a good job of restocking the roster with young talent. He's been making the right moves in the draft and picking up good young prospects like Morris. I do think that he can pick talent tho and his track record is solid. I like what he's attempting to do with the team now. He's done well where we've been picking. Finding talent no matter where we draft at. The thing is that I don't want to copy the Bulls. I want to be BETTER than the Bulls. So I want Isiah to keep going in the direction he's taking the team and refining the roster.

Caseloads
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5/16/2007  12:24 AM
can someone please post the insider stuff from ESPN on Sherridan - Bulls bright future

Thanks!
islesfan
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5/16/2007  12:46 AM
Posted by Caseloads:

can someone please post the insider stuff from ESPN on Sherridan - Bulls bright future

Thanks!

This article?

On the verge of elimination, Bulls face uncertain future
By Chris Sheridan
ESPN.com
Archive

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. -- One more loss for the Chicago Bulls and we'll have our answer to the pre-series prognostication that this matchup will serve as a referendum on the Ben Wallace signing.

One more loss for the Bulls, which could come as soon as Tuesday night in Game 5, and it'll be the Pistons who'll go down -- at least for the time being -- as the team that made the better decision.

Big Ben was supposed to be the Bulls' answer this postseason.
Now, that doesn't mean the Bulls' decision was entirely wrong. Big Ben helped them get past the Heat in the first round, and he kept them from getting swept with his best game of the postseason two nights ago.

Still ...

If you spent $60 million to bring Wallace in as part of the plan to make yourself a championship contender, you now know that you're still at least one player away from rising to that upper echelon.

So then it becomes a question of what is that piece? And what is the price general manager John Paxson will need to pay? The Bulls have the assets to get almost any deal done, but it becomes a question of how many of those pieces they'd be willing to lump together? A package built around Luol Deng was deemed too expensive when the Bulls had a chance to get Pau Gasol from the Memphis Grizzlies before the trade deadline in February, and Deng's steady if unspectacular postseason has likely cemented his status as an untouchable.

But would Deng still be untouchable if Kevin Garnett or Jermaine O'Neal suddenly became available? Or what if Chicago has a chance to get a Zach Randolph or an Amare Stoudemire?

Perhaps a better question: What if none of those big names is gettable? What then?

So many questions, eh?

Well then, let's start breaking the situation down one question at a time:

Q: What'll be the first order of business if the Bulls go down Tuesday night?

A: Waiting one week for the draft lottery. The Bulls own the rights to the New York Knicks' lottery pick from the Eddy Curry trade. It's a prohibitive long shot with Chicago having only 19 of 1,000 ping-pong ball combinations (Memphis, by comparison, has 250), but it's not completely impossible, for the Bulls to win the No. 1 or No. 2 pick. (The lottery determines the top three picks, not just the No. 1 pick.) But if the Bulls get the first or second pick, all bets are off as far as possible trades, because Greg Oden or Kevin Durant fits the bill as the missing piece.

Q: And if they don't win the draft lottery?

A: Then, obviously, all bets are on. Chicago would end up with a pick in the No. 9 to No. 12 range, and in a draft as deep as this upcoming one, that pick will have a lot of value. The Bulls could keep it and go after one of the more skilled big men, such as Florida's Al Horford or Joakim Noah, Georgetown's Roy Hibbert or Washington's Spencer Hawes. But will any of those players be enough to get the Bulls past the Pistons a year from now? Probably not.

Getting a thumbs up on a Kevin Garnett deal could be pretty complicated for the Bulls.
Q: So why don't they just go out and get Garnett?

A: Easier said than done. First of all, the Timberwolves say they aren't trading him. Second, KG will make $22 million next season, and salaries in most NBA trades have to be within 125 percent of each other. Unless an under-the-cap third team can be brought in to broker a deal, that would mean Chicago would have to put together at least $17.6 million worth of salaries. If you exclude Wallace ($15.5 million) and Kirk Hinrich ($11 million, but a hard-to-deal base-year compensation player), you could lump together the Bulls' lottery pick ($1.7 million to $1.9 million), Tyrus Thomas ($3.5 million) and Chris Duhon ($3.2 million), and you'd still come up almost $9 million short.

Q: So how could Paxson overcome that $9 million shortage?

A: If he gave restricted free agent Andres Nocioni $7 million and unrestricted free agent P.J. Brown $2 million and included them as part of a sign-and-trade, that'd do it. But is Nocioni worth that much, especially given how poorly he has played against Detroit? Maybe not.

Q: Then how about Jermaine? Or Z-Bo? Or Stoudemire?

A: Those players don't make as much as Garnett, so in theory they'd be easier to come by. O'Neal will make $19.7 million, and Stoudemire and Randolph will each make $13.3 million. But in each case, those players' teams would have to be willing to part with them. And we haven't heard, at least definitively, that Indiana, Portland or Phoenix would be willing to move any of those players.

Q: OK, then. So what happens if all those big names mentioned above are unavailable?

A: Two things could happen: Paxson could target a lesser-salaried player who can score, rebound and pass out of the low post and try to make a trade for him, or he could look to the free-agent market.

Q: Are there any free agents with the skills to fit their needs?

A: Well, there's one guy they're getting a good look at right now who fits the bill. He's Antonio McDyess, who has an option to make $6.4 million next season. If he chooses not to exercise it, he'll be an unrestricted free agent.

Q: Will the Bulls have enough financial flexibility to get someone like McDyess?

A: P.J. Brown, Michael Sweetney, Malik Allen, Martynas Andriuskevicius and Andre Barrett come off the cap, and the Bulls have a team option on Viktor Khryapa's $1.9 million salary for next season, leaving them with about $45-$47 million in committed salary. Add on the money for the lottery pick, plus Nocioni's $6.05 million cap hold (his number against the cap until he signs a new deal or the Bulls renounce him), and the Bulls are up to around $54-$55 million, which is where the salary cap figures to be for 2007-08.

They'd still be $11 or $12 million below the luxury tax threshold, but they would not be able to offer McDyess or anyone else more than the mid-level exception unless they could swing a sign-and-trade. And if you think Joe Dumars is going to do any such thing to help a division rival, you'd be mistaken. Also, don't forget that the Bulls still must negotiate extensions with Deng and Ben Gordon this summer in addition to making a decision on whether to keep Nocioni. So there are a lot of moving parts here.

Q: So, what will the Bulls do?

A: First things first, y'all. They'll go out Tuesday night and try to win Game 5. If they don't, then they'll sort through the possibilities. At least there are plenty of them to consider.

Chris Sheridan covers the NBA for ESPN Insider.

If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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5/16/2007  2:06 AM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by islesfan:

paxson's draft picks:

2004: hinrich (2nd round - austin, bonner)
2005: gordon, deng (2nd round - duhon)
2006: no picks
2007: tyrus, thabo

the guy knows how to draft

Paxson picks all stars and starters, gets the better of GM's in trades and manages the cap well.

Isiah picks role players and backups, gets bent over in trades and ignores the cap.

How could you not be more excited about the Knicks future than the Bulls??? And to think, Isiah has only been on the job 8 months less than Paxson.

Do we have to keep rehashing this point everytime we talk about this subject? Pax is a GREAT GM and is doing a GREAT job. His situation was different than Isiah's tho. Isiah came into a disaster and had an edict from Dolan not to rebuild but to retool and get the team back to the playoffs. WHY? Cuz he had millions invested in H2O and others and it wasn't yet clear that H2O wouldn't be able to continue his career. So right there the Knicks were delayed in their process for remaking the team with youth. Dolan didn't really want that. The Bulls had already been years into the process of trying to rebuild thru the draft and had failed miserably for a long time. So I applaud the job that Pax has done.
[/quote]
You're not even addressing Isles' point. Was Dolan's mandate to sign awful players to the MLE and always get the short end on trades? Was getting the short end on trades and making bad signings really a smart way to improve the bad situation Isiah inherited?

Bippity10
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5/16/2007  8:17 AM
Basically both teams have a "core" of players not yet in their primes. Yet one team is battling in the playoffs and the other is still making excuses for being a lottery team. The only way you think NY has a brighter future is if you think the Knicks have a star and the Bulls don't. That "star" is Eddie Curry.

Once again, Isiah's entire legacy comes down to Eddie Curry becoming a star.
I just hope that people will like me
Caseloads
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5/16/2007  9:03 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Caseloads:

can someone please post the insider stuff from ESPN on Sherridan - Bulls bright future

Thanks!

This article?

On the verge of elimination, Bulls face uncertain future
By Chris Sheridan
ESPN.com
Archive

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. -- One more loss for the Chicago Bulls and we'll have our answer to the pre-series prognostication that this matchup will serve as a referendum on the Ben Wallace signing.

One more loss for the Bulls, which could come as soon as Tuesday night in Game 5, and it'll be the Pistons who'll go down -- at least for the time being -- as the team that made the better decision.

Big Ben was supposed to be the Bulls' answer this postseason.
Now, that doesn't mean the Bulls' decision was entirely wrong. Big Ben helped them get past the Heat in the first round, and he kept them from getting swept with his best game of the postseason two nights ago.

Still ...

If you spent $60 million to bring Wallace in as part of the plan to make yourself a championship contender, you now know that you're still at least one player away from rising to that upper echelon.

So then it becomes a question of what is that piece? And what is the price general manager John Paxson will need to pay? The Bulls have the assets to get almost any deal done, but it becomes a question of how many of those pieces they'd be willing to lump together? A package built around Luol Deng was deemed too expensive when the Bulls had a chance to get Pau Gasol from the Memphis Grizzlies before the trade deadline in February, and Deng's steady if unspectacular postseason has likely cemented his status as an untouchable.

But would Deng still be untouchable if Kevin Garnett or Jermaine O'Neal suddenly became available? Or what if Chicago has a chance to get a Zach Randolph or an Amare Stoudemire?

Perhaps a better question: What if none of those big names is gettable? What then?

So many questions, eh?

Well then, let's start breaking the situation down one question at a time:

Q: What'll be the first order of business if the Bulls go down Tuesday night?

A: Waiting one week for the draft lottery. The Bulls own the rights to the New York Knicks' lottery pick from the Eddy Curry trade. It's a prohibitive long shot with Chicago having only 19 of 1,000 ping-pong ball combinations (Memphis, by comparison, has 250), but it's not completely impossible, for the Bulls to win the No. 1 or No. 2 pick. (The lottery determines the top three picks, not just the No. 1 pick.) But if the Bulls get the first or second pick, all bets are off as far as possible trades, because Greg Oden or Kevin Durant fits the bill as the missing piece.

Q: And if they don't win the draft lottery?

A: Then, obviously, all bets are on. Chicago would end up with a pick in the No. 9 to No. 12 range, and in a draft as deep as this upcoming one, that pick will have a lot of value. The Bulls could keep it and go after one of the more skilled big men, such as Florida's Al Horford or Joakim Noah, Georgetown's Roy Hibbert or Washington's Spencer Hawes. But will any of those players be enough to get the Bulls past the Pistons a year from now? Probably not.

Getting a thumbs up on a Kevin Garnett deal could be pretty complicated for the Bulls.
Q: So why don't they just go out and get Garnett?

A: Easier said than done. First of all, the Timberwolves say they aren't trading him. Second, KG will make $22 million next season, and salaries in most NBA trades have to be within 125 percent of each other. Unless an under-the-cap third team can be brought in to broker a deal, that would mean Chicago would have to put together at least $17.6 million worth of salaries. If you exclude Wallace ($15.5 million) and Kirk Hinrich ($11 million, but a hard-to-deal base-year compensation player), you could lump together the Bulls' lottery pick ($1.7 million to $1.9 million), Tyrus Thomas ($3.5 million) and Chris Duhon ($3.2 million), and you'd still come up almost $9 million short.

Q: So how could Paxson overcome that $9 million shortage?

A: If he gave restricted free agent Andres Nocioni $7 million and unrestricted free agent P.J. Brown $2 million and included them as part of a sign-and-trade, that'd do it. But is Nocioni worth that much, especially given how poorly he has played against Detroit? Maybe not.

Q: Then how about Jermaine? Or Z-Bo? Or Stoudemire?

A: Those players don't make as much as Garnett, so in theory they'd be easier to come by. O'Neal will make $19.7 million, and Stoudemire and Randolph will each make $13.3 million. But in each case, those players' teams would have to be willing to part with them. And we haven't heard, at least definitively, that Indiana, Portland or Phoenix would be willing to move any of those players.

Q: OK, then. So what happens if all those big names mentioned above are unavailable?

A: Two things could happen: Paxson could target a lesser-salaried player who can score, rebound and pass out of the low post and try to make a trade for him, or he could look to the free-agent market.

Q: Are there any free agents with the skills to fit their needs?

A: Well, there's one guy they're getting a good look at right now who fits the bill. He's Antonio McDyess, who has an option to make $6.4 million next season. If he chooses not to exercise it, he'll be an unrestricted free agent.

Q: Will the Bulls have enough financial flexibility to get someone like McDyess?

A: P.J. Brown, Michael Sweetney, Malik Allen, Martynas Andriuskevicius and Andre Barrett come off the cap, and the Bulls have a team option on Viktor Khryapa's $1.9 million salary for next season, leaving them with about $45-$47 million in committed salary. Add on the money for the lottery pick, plus Nocioni's $6.05 million cap hold (his number against the cap until he signs a new deal or the Bulls renounce him), and the Bulls are up to around $54-$55 million, which is where the salary cap figures to be for 2007-08.

They'd still be $11 or $12 million below the luxury tax threshold, but they would not be able to offer McDyess or anyone else more than the mid-level exception unless they could swing a sign-and-trade. And if you think Joe Dumars is going to do any such thing to help a division rival, you'd be mistaken. Also, don't forget that the Bulls still must negotiate extensions with Deng and Ben Gordon this summer in addition to making a decision on whether to keep Nocioni. So there are a lot of moving parts here.

Q: So, what will the Bulls do?

A: First things first, y'all. They'll go out Tuesday night and try to win Game 5. If they don't, then they'll sort through the possibilities. At least there are plenty of them to consider.

Chris Sheridan covers the NBA for ESPN Insider.

Thanks for posting that article. It was pretty weak, basically stuff that any of us could have come up with. ESPN "INsider" is now just a collection of bloggers acting like they know stuff any different than us educated posters - pure speculators. Pathetic.
MS
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5/16/2007  9:22 AM
Deng is better than Curry period, where is this bright future. Deng has a higher upside than curry he is younger and more skilled and can do things eddy can't so trying to justify a future on a lazy chubby center with no work ethic is laughable
EnySpree
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5/16/2007  12:15 PM
Deng is a small fwd so comparing him to a center is laughable.

Gushing about another team is also laughable. If the bulls are so good, why not post exclusively on a bulls fansite?

Having to read garbage negativity on every thread is tiresome.

The bulls are in the playoffs, fine. That team is so freakin lucky. I truly believe they are lucky cuz their fans are not as evil as the knick fans. Everything they do seems to go right even if the move looks bad. The knicks moves always seem to go wrong even if they look good.

I blame all you doom and gloom bastards for the bad luck we had the last two season. Everything that could have went wrong, did.

You know dispite all this, the knicks are still a player or 2 away from really having a good team. The bulls could be closer but that doesn't mean I'm gonna count my knicks out.
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Solace
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5/16/2007  12:36 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

You know dispite all this, the knicks are still a player or 2 away from really having a good team.

Yep. Unfortunately those two players are Amare Stoudamire and Steve Nash. Oh well.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
McK1
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5/16/2007  12:36 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

Deng is a small fwd so comparing him to a center is laughable.

Gushing about another team is also laughable. If the bulls are so good, why not post exclusively on a bulls fansite?

Having to read garbage negativity on every thread is tiresome.

The bulls are in the playoffs, fine. That team is so freakin lucky. I truly believe they are lucky cuz their fans are not as evil as the knick fans. Everything they do seems to go right even if the move looks bad. The knicks moves always seem to go wrong even if they look good.

I blame all you doom and gloom bastards for the bad luck we had the last two season. Everything that could have went wrong, did.

1. comparisons about who is a better player are never confined to position.

ie Jordan vs Magic vs Bird vs Wilt

2. what went wrong had nothing to do with doom and gloom fans.
you want fresh fruit, you pick from the tree not the barrel.

Pax went to the tree and got players [from champion caliber programs] he and Skiles could mold as pros from the door.

Isiah has pieced his cornerstone with other teams discards. And not play-off to champion level discards but guys who led their teams to the lottery season after season.

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!
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BlueSeats
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5/16/2007  12:50 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

The bulls are in the playoffs, fine. That team is so freakin lucky. I truly believe they are lucky cuz their fans are not as evil as the knick fans. Everything they do seems to go right even if the move looks bad. The knicks moves always seem to go wrong even if they look good.

I blame all you doom and gloom bastards for the bad luck we had the last two season. Everything that could have went wrong, did.


Yeah, you and Jerry Falwell, who believed the gays, feminists and liberals were responsible for 9/11.
Bonn1997
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5/16/2007  5:34 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

Deng is a small fwd so comparing him to a center is laughable.
What's laughable is that Deng is a better rebounder and shot-blocker than Curry. Curry's not really a center; he's just a tall man.
Solace
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5/16/2007  5:49 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by EnySpree:

Deng is a small fwd so comparing him to a center is laughable.
What's laughable is that Deng is a better rebounder and shot-blocker than Curry. Curry's not really a center; he's just a tall man.

Curry's official position should be listed as linebacker.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
islesfan
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5/16/2007  5:50 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by EnySpree:

Deng is a small fwd so comparing him to a center is laughable.
What's laughable is that Deng is a better rebounder and shot-blocker than Curry. Curry's not really a center; he's just a tall man.

Curry's official position should be listed as linebacker.

I prefer "Cherry picker"
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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5/17/2007  8:26 PM
Chauncy Billups just said that the Bulls are the only team that could take back what they had going early in the series because

they are young
they play so hard
they are so thirsty and hungry


But obviously Chauncy Billups has no clue what our Knicks could have done to them.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
BlueSeats
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5/17/2007  8:48 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:


But obviously Chauncy Billups has no clue what our Knicks could have done to them.


Chauncey is just jealous because we have a brighter future than the Bulls and Mavs.

TrueBlue
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5/17/2007  9:14 PM
P.J. Brown is such a Pros Pro. WOW 20pts in a half.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Bulls' future vs. Knicks

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