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Knicks may buy out Larry Brown
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nixluva
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5/14/2006  10:50 PM
Hey look this past year wasn't about huge winning percentages, all LB had to do was coach this team to near .500 and most would've been satisfied with that. WE ALL KNEW this wasn't a great team this year. Not with all the young players we have and all the NEW players period. LB acted as if this was a stable situation and all he had to do was roll the ball out there like in Detroit. WELL THIS AIN'T DETROIT LARRY! He actually had to COACH this year and he wasn't up to the task.

What's with all the bitching about the roster? He's supposed to be the GREAT LARRY BROWN, so he should've been able to buckle down for the longhaul as he said this job was. If he knew this was going to take time, then why all the complaining about the roster. Hey we knew this team had flaws when he took the job. To me he HAS to get the lions share of the blame cuz he accepted the job knowing all the negative things that came with it, then he acted like he didn't want to coach the team. How can ANYONE defend what he did to this team. Hell his team was no worse than any of the teams in the last 5 years, so why couldn't he reach them.

Frye, Lee, Nate, Butler, Woods, Quentin, Jamal, Malik and Mo mostly just tried to deal with his crazy moves. None of those guys went out of their way to be a problem. Sure our young guys made mistakes, but then he should've expected that. With all his experience he simply wasn't up to the task of dealing with these players, so I can't defend him and if he's let go so be it.
AUTOADVERT
BlueSeats
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5/14/2006  10:51 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Rich:

A side benefit is that the draft would be interesting again, because if Larry stays they would likely trade their picks.

Right, cause larry "hates rookies."

Can someone please remind me of the rookies and sophomores Brown has traded in his career?

He's been on 8 teams over 30 years and this insinuation that he hates youth is sooo prevalent, I'm dying to see this list.

Why should anyone bother? He wouldn't give regular minutes to the Knicks' rookies. Intead, he played Malik Rose or Antonio Davis or some other old man who won't be on the team if and when they become good.

he played AD and Rose because they offered leadership and interior defense, two things this team sorely needed.

In spite of that here are the top 5 minute earners for the season, in order:

Jamal
Marbury
Curry
Frye
Robinson

Marbury and Frye obviously would have been higher had they not both missed games to injury.

The much maligned Malik ranks 9th.

Frye logged more minutes in his 65 games than Sweets did last year in 82. Robinson logged more minutes than Ariza did last year. So why does Brown get dumped on when he plays rookies more than prior coaches who don't even have the power to chose their own assistants? Why was Brown voted the BEST at developing youth by the league's GMs?

Now where's your list?

simrud
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5/14/2006  10:51 PM
Sure lets fire Brown for not reaching 35 wins! And lets keep aroudn IT for makin a team whose top potential is 35 wins, makes perfect sense.

A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Rich
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5/14/2006  11:03 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Rich:

A side benefit is that the draft would be interesting again, because if Larry stays they would likely trade their picks.

Right, cause larry "hates rookies."

Can someone please remind me of the rookies and sophomores Brown has traded in his career?

He's been on 8 teams over 30 years and this insinuation that he hates youth is sooo prevalent, I'm dying to see this list.

Why should anyone bother? He wouldn't give regular minutes to the Knicks' rookies. Intead, he played Malik Rose or Antonio Davis or some other old man who won't be on the team if and when they become good.

he played AD and Rose because they offered leadership and interior defense, two things this team sorely needed.

In spite of that here are the top 5 minute earners for the season, in order:

Jamal
Marbury
Curry
Frye
Robinson

Marbury and Frye obviously would have been higher had they not both missed games to injury.

The much maligned Malik ranks 9th.

Frye logged more minutes in his 65 games than Sweets did last year in 82. Robinson logged more minutes than Ariza did last year. So why does Brown get dumped on when he plays rookies more than prior coaches who don't even have the power to chose their own assistants? Why was Brown voted the BEST at developing youth by the league's GMs?

Now where's your list?

By leadership, do you mean when AD went into the stands on behalf of his out of control wife, and then not reporting back to the team during his suspension?

Developing a player's talents on a team going nowhere is from more important than some mythical leadership by players that won't be part of the team going foward.

Any list is meaningless. Give it up.
BlueSeats
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5/14/2006  11:08 PM
Posted by Rich:

By leadership, do you mean when AD went into the stands on behalf of his out of control wife, and then not reporting back to the team during his suspension?

Developing a player's talents on a team going nowhere is from more important than some mythical leadership by players that won't be part of the team going foward.

Any list is meaningless. Give it up.

I should give it up? Cause you've got nothing to support your case? So you can perpetuate your unfounded myth?

Why did GMs vote him the best coach of all at developing youth?

WOODMANnYk
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5/14/2006  11:08 PM
Honestly, LArry should've stayed in detriot and not bother coming home to NY..

WHy?? cause the idiots running the knicks are considered organization killers... I.T. Mills and bufoon DOlan has taken this team down to the toilet.


This knicks team went from the Patrick Ewing regime to a complete joke of the NBA.. It's really sad to actually witness what is going on..

The Future. GO KNICKS!
djsunyc
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5/14/2006  11:09 PM
would it be out of the realm of possibility that this was leaked by the isiah camp b/c he's scrambling. maybe it's isiah that's getting the boot?
WOODMANnYk
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5/14/2006  11:14 PM
Posted by WOODMANnYk:

Honestly, LArry should've stayed in detriot and not bother coming home to NY..

WHy?? cause the idiots running the knicks are considered organization killers... I.T. Mills and bufoon DOlan has taken this team down to the toilet.


This knicks team went from the Patrick Ewing regime to a complete joke of the NBA.. It's really sad to actually witness what is going on..

I said it before, while dolan is owner, not even Jordan palying for them along with Scottie can save the organization.

DOlan is a demon, born loser.. CAn a business out there buy the knicks???? PLEASE!!!!!!!!!! They are held in bondage!

The Future. GO KNICKS!
Bonn1997
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5/14/2006  11:15 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

would it be out of the realm of possibility that this was leaked by the isiah camp b/c he's scrambling. maybe it's isiah that's getting the boot?
That's very interesting. That would be better than firing Brown if we could only get one of the two, although it still is a disaster as long as the Knicks are run by Cablevision and Dolan. If your hypthothetical were the case, I'd think Larry or Dolan would jump out and correct the story, though.

Rich
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5/14/2006  11:16 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Rich:

By leadership, do you mean when AD went into the stands on behalf of his out of control wife, and then not reporting back to the team during his suspension?

Developing a player's talents on a team going nowhere is from more important than some mythical leadership by players that won't be part of the team going foward.

Any list is meaningless. Give it up.

I should give it up? Cause you've got nothing to support your case? So you can perpetuate your unfounded myth?

Why did GMs vote him the best coach of all at developing youth?

My case? Your case is to rank player by minutes, but to fail to provide contextual facts, like that Davis got most of the PF minutes until he left (while Rose sat), and then Rose got those minutes after he left. That's why your list is meaningless.

Notice also that Lee isn't on that list, even though he rebounded well almost every time he played, which is a skill that the team lacked.

Larry may once have been good at developing youth, but at 65, he isn't.

btw, Plenty of GMs are idiots.
knicks1248
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5/14/2006  11:18 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

would it be out of the realm of possibility that this was leaked by the isiah camp b/c he's scrambling. maybe it's isiah that's getting the boot?

What kills me is how much of a endorsement they give you then turn it around throw your ass overboard.

ES
BlueSeats
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5/14/2006  11:18 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

would it be out of the realm of possibility that this was leaked by the isiah camp b/c he's scrambling. maybe it's isiah that's getting the boot?

I think it's a preamble to a discussion about what Dolan and Isiah expect form Larry. Dolan is a horrible manager known to scream at underlings and such, he probably wants to put brown on his heels before they even speak. And I suspect isiah would be the concept man for a tactical maneuver like this.
BlueSeats
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5/14/2006  11:23 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Rich:

By leadership, do you mean when AD went into the stands on behalf of his out of control wife, and then not reporting back to the team during his suspension?

Developing a player's talents on a team going nowhere is from more important than some mythical leadership by players that won't be part of the team going foward.

Any list is meaningless. Give it up.

I should give it up? Cause you've got nothing to support your case? So you can perpetuate your unfounded myth?

Why did GMs vote him the best coach of all at developing youth?

My case? Your case is to rank player by minutes, but to fail to provide contextual facts, like that Davis got most of the PF minutes until he left (while Rose sat), and then Rose got those minutes after he left. That's why your list is meaningless.

Notice also that Lee isn't on that list, even though he rebounded well almost every time he played, which is a skill that the team lacked.

Larry may once have been good at developing youth, but at 65, he isn't.

btw, Plenty of GMs are idiots.


In your scenario the majority of GMs would need to be idiots. And of course you know more than them.

And while i didn't mention Lee he is ahead of Rose in minutes.

And why is it so bad that AD start alongside the defensively soft and poor rebounding Curry? Chicago did the same and got to the playoffs that way.

Keep some perspective, man.
joec32033
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5/14/2006  11:29 PM
^You are trying to kill Blue's case by mentioning the last pick of the first round didn't get meaningful minutes on a team where the 8th pick (who happens to play the same position)(Frye), another project who was on the team last year(Butler), a whatever-year veteran who LB loved (Antonio), another defensive vet(Malik) were ahead of him on the depth chart for most of the season at the 4 and it was almost a split on this board about whether he could earn minutes at the 3?
~You can't run from who you are.~
Rich
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5/14/2006  11:29 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Rich:

By leadership, do you mean when AD went into the stands on behalf of his out of control wife, and then not reporting back to the team during his suspension?

Developing a player's talents on a team going nowhere is from more important than some mythical leadership by players that won't be part of the team going foward.

Any list is meaningless. Give it up.

I should give it up? Cause you've got nothing to support your case? So you can perpetuate your unfounded myth?

Why did GMs vote him the best coach of all at developing youth?

My case? Your case is to rank player by minutes, but to fail to provide contextual facts, like that Davis got most of the PF minutes until he left (while Rose sat), and then Rose got those minutes after he left. That's why your list is meaningless.

Notice also that Lee isn't on that list, even though he rebounded well almost every time he played, which is a skill that the team lacked.

Larry may once have been good at developing youth, but at 65, he isn't.

btw, Plenty of GMs are idiots.


In your scenario the majority of GMs would need to be idiots. And of course you know more than them.

And while i didn't mention Lee he is ahead of Rose in minutes.

And why is it so bad that AD start alongside the defensively soft and poor rebounding Curry? Chicago did the same and got to the playoffs that way.

Keep some perspective, man.

I know enough to know what I don't know. Too many GMs don't understand their limitations because they don't understand simple business principles.

Right, Lee got far too few minutes. Afterall, our GM, refused to trade him for Curry, instead giving up an unprotected lottery pick, and the right to swap picks for another one.

First, Curry couldn't stay on the court as a result of foul problems, which is another issue. I actualy didn't mind AD starting. I minded him playing him down the stretch of 4th quarters because he is too offensively challenged.
Bippity10
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5/15/2006  12:03 AM
We just threw 50 bazillion dollars at another coach/player and after realizing that he is not our savior we are buying him out after one year. Another wonderful organizational move. Pi-ss money out the window and wait for the next savior. It was Allan, Latrell, Dice, Marbs, Curry, "franchise", and LB. Next it will be Isiah. Anyone want to get started early on figuring out who the next savior is after we fire Isiah?
I just hope that people will like me
djsunyc
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5/15/2006  12:03 AM
Knicks May Be Looking for Way to Part With Brown


Larry Brown, far left, with Isiah Thomas, James L. Dolan and Steve Mills when Brown was introduced as the Knicks' coach last July.

By HOWARD BECK and LIZ ROBBINS
Published: May 15, 2006

The Knicks are tethered to Coach Larry Brown by a contract guarantee of more than $40 million, and as the franchise ponders its next move, that hefty sum may be the main hurdle to a divorce.

Distraught over their worst season in 20 years, and with Brown's erratic leadership, Knicks officials have been mulling Brown's future for weeks. But they have yet to decide his fate, presumably because of the millions they owe him over the next four years and because of the picture of defeat a buyout of his contract would present.

The team's discontent with Brown is considerable, according to four people with ties to the Knicks' front office. They were granted anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss relations between the team and Brown.

A contract buyout has been discussed but not yet pursued, since it is not yet clear that team officials are ready to make that leap, according to two Eastern Conference executives and one of the four people tied to the Knicks.

The Knicks introduced Brown, a Hall of Fame coach, with great fanfare last July. But rather than lead a revival, Brown plunged the Knicks further into disarray as they finished 23-59, tying a franchise record for defeats in a season.

He alienated most of his players with his criticism, used a league-high 42 starting lineups and engaged in an embarrassing public spat with Stephon Marbury, the team's star point guard. By doing so, Brown upset James L. Dolan, the chairman of Madison Square Garden, who abhors public controversy and who expressed his displeasure with Brown's criticism in a meeting with reporters in February.

There are three ways the Knicks and Brown could part. If the Knicks conclude that parting is necessary, they could fire him and pay the more than $40 million he is owed, or they could negotiate a buyout for a lesser sum. The third alternative is that Brown could decide to walk away, if he finds another lucrative opportunity.

There are three coaching possibilities in the league: a vacancy in Sacramento, a potential vacancy in Charlotte, and a questionable situation in Golden State. It is believed that no team has asked the Knicks for permission to talk to Brown.

Near the end of the season, Brown made it clear that he wanted wholesale changes on the roster, and he emphasized that point privately with Knicks executives. The day after the season ended, Brown said he was "excited" about returning and Isiah Thomas, the team president, said the Knicks had not considered making a change.

Yesterday, Brown's agent, Joe Glass, and the Knicks declined to comment.

If Brown is dismissed, three people with ties to the Knicks' front office said, the team might ask Thomas to coach the roster he has assembled.

The New York Post reported yesterday that Dolan and Steve Mills, the president of Madison Square Garden Sports, endorsed' the buyout option and wanted Thomas to replace Brown.

If the Knicks decide to negotiate a buyout with Brown, they want Thomas to coach the team to offset the cost of the buyout, according to one person with ties to the Knicks.

Thomas has only coached the Indiana Pacers, who fired him in 2003 despite making the playoffs in all three of his seasons. For now, there are no obvious alternatives in the coaching market. A year ago, the Knicks interviewed Brown, Phil Jackson and Flip Saunders, all of whom boasted great résumés. Saunders was hired by Detroit, while Jackson returned to the Los Angeles Lakers.

Friends say that Thomas wants to coach again, but he has insisted that he does not plan to coach the Knicks.

Firing or buying out Brown — after only one season, no matter how dreadful — would present a painful moment for Knicks officials. It would be acknowledging a mistake — something Thomas has never done as team president — and would stand in awkward contrast to the buoyant celebration they staged upon hiring Brown just 10 months ago.

The Knicks would not be able to replicate that buzz this time around. The biggest names available are Don Nelson, who is in semiretirement, and Rick Adelman, who was fired last week by the Sacramento Kings.

The Kings' vacancy could present Brown with a landing spot if the Knicks let him go. The Charlotte Bobcats are another possibility. Brown's representatives have made inquiries with the Bobcats, according to one person with ties to the Knicks.

Bernie Bickerstaff has a dual role as Charlotte's coach and general manager, but he has considered giving up the coaching job. An Eastern Conference official with knowledge of Charlotte's plans denied that there was any contact with Brown.

Given Brown's long record of leaving teams before his contract is finished — and his frayed relations with the Knicks — his preparing for a future outside New York is not unlikely.

Brown and Glass negotiated a $7 million buyout with the Pistons last summer. Then Glass negotiated a five-year contract for more than $50 million with the Knicks, with Brown making $11 million this season.

Including his $6 million salary the final year in Detroit, Brown has made $24 million in 18 months. He could double that amount if he negotiates a buyout and finds another job.
holfresh
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5/15/2006  12:12 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

holfresh: Do you honestly think I run from you for any reason. These websites aren't that important. I have a kid and a wife and spent a nice time in Cape Cod this weekend. Didn't hear the news until a few minutes ago. My question is why would anyone be afraid to come on this site for any reason? Who has that low self-esteem?

Bonn: You've been posting with me for a looooooooooooooooooong time. YOu have heard me preach the same things for at least 3 years now. And yet you still target me when a coach is fired thinking that that coach is my "favorite". Every year it's the same thing. Every year I say "bonn you are better than that". Now I'm starting to think I give you too much credit



Bip I know you won't run from me or anyone for that matter..I just couldnt resist taking a shot across your bow..Much as you were a fierce defender of Larry and want to see some continuity, LB was not the guy for the job for a few reasons..First, he wasn't here for the long haul, Larry would have been here for two maybe three years max...Second, Larry wanted total control..It is almost safe to say if this goes through, tha the organization thought Larry sabotarged the season and didn't do all he can to win games for this organization...Third, he wanted to work with vets and after he is gone, what would we do then...We need to build with youth...He may have been the only one with a track record here but he was up to his own devices..Many here didn't mind turning a blind eye to it because they though Larry would have put them on better footing, more so than anyone else in the organization...They sold their souls for a chance to win with Larry...He was a bad seed and had to go..He used his 5 yr deal to wield power and he lost...No tears necessary for the cat..He's not a good guy...He's like a boat, it's looks great before you buy it and can't wait to get rid of it when you own it....

I like the direction that Zeke took with youth and athleticism...He needs help thought..he can't do it alone...I would love to see him coach this team and implement his vision...Maybe he can get some help in the GM position and build something from there..I'm not saying it's the perfect situation, but it will be better now that Brown isn't holding this organization hostage...Another year with
him, it would have been more of the same until he gets what he wants...And that's BS...So, Bip lets all hope that this will finally leads us into a situation where we can build something and win a few games...

[Edited by - holfresh on 05-15-2006 12:15 AM]
franco12
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5/15/2006  12:15 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Rich:

A side benefit is that the draft would be interesting again, because if Larry stays they would likely trade their picks.

Right, cause larry "hates rookies."

Can someone please remind me of the rookies and sophomores Brown has traded in his career?

He's been on 8 teams over 30 years and this insinuation that he hates youth is sooo prevalent, I'm dying to see this list.

Why should anyone bother? He wouldn't give regular minutes to the Knicks' rookies. Intead, he played Malik Rose or Antonio Davis or some other old man who won't be on the team if and when they become good.

he played AD and Rose because they offered leadership and interior defense, two things this team sorely needed.

In spite of that here are the top 5 minute earners for the season, in order:

Jamal
Marbury
Curry
Frye
Robinson

Marbury and Frye obviously would have been higher had they not both missed games to injury.

The much maligned Malik ranks 9th.

Frye logged more minutes in his 65 games than Sweets did last year in 82. Robinson logged more minutes than Ariza did last year. So why does Brown get dumped on when he plays rookies more than prior coaches who don't even have the power to chose their own assistants? Why was Brown voted the BEST at developing youth by the league's GMs?

Now where's your list?


Although the rookies did get some PT- there was no set rotation and about 10 players all got minutes- without checking, I am reasonably certan that every other team had 8 guys that got the majority of minutes.


Here is my list

Frye was inactive game one of season, made it to all rookie first team. Did Larry miss something in preseason?

Lee got no minutes, yet was so often the energizer for the team
Rich
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5/15/2006  12:35 AM
Posted by djsunyc:



Mills is the Teflon man.
Knicks may buy out Larry Brown

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