Even if you call Marbury a Shooting Guard in Point Guard's clothing, over 8 assists for his career is pretty good, especially for a player who if he were playing his natural position of Shooting Guard, would be commended for scoring lots of points instead of being disparaged.

In fact we should be applauding Marbury for taking on the added resposibility of bringing the ball up and running the team for 9 seasons, which is more than any team should ask of its Shooting Guard.

oohah

yep if Steph was played at 2 then his taking the bulk of the shots would be viewed in a different light.

However, this is the 1st season a coach [with power (Herb was a lame duck)] has ever spoke of playing Steph off the ball. Therefore his prior numbers where he had the ball from baseline to front court at his discretion for 30 or so possessions a night instead of working within a system like the triangle and LB's motion offense aren't valid for discussing how he would/should be viewed if we considered him a 2 in point's clothing.

[Edited by - McK1 on 10-25-2005 01:46 AM]

[Edited by - McK1 on 10-25-2005 01:47 AM]

Posted by McK1:

nixluv you are the one who wanted to include teammates in this discussion as proof as to why KG's shot attempts would increase. As rebuttal I introduced the 00-01 season numbers with Steph's replacement Brandon and how he faired with having to distribute the ball with several more than just himself KG and 1 other requiring shots.

I'm not complaining that you wanted to use a KG team, just that there was no direct comparison to be made, since Steph didn't have those players on the team when he played, so who's to say that he wouldn't have done the exact same thing as Terrell. It can't be proven or disproven, so its a bad example. In my examples the point was that none of his top teammates suffered from not getting the ball enough, in fact they had high scoring seasons with Steph. Which was the opposite of what you were saying.

Posted by McK1:

in 02-03 steph had 5 players averaging 9 or more with him which is comendable. Only thing though Steph took double the shots of his starting star bigman.

OK i'm going to have to stop you here. You can't call a rookie right out of high school a star bigman!!! Yeah he was talented, but really unproven. Who could know how he would really respond and how ready he really was. A lot of his game is pure athleticism, especially in his rookie year. He later added a lot more range and accuracy on his jumper, but you can't think that he was the same player he is now, in his rookie year! You make it sound like Steph was the reason he didn't get enough shots, why would Steph do that when he was the one saying that Amare was going to be a star, even before the season started. He even said Amare was better than KG. He didn't get more shots cuz he was a rookie and that's plain and simple. You make it seem like Steph has never had a bigman to pass the ball to. Well when he had 2 in KG and Gug's they saw the ball plenty. I just find your argument has no merit whatsoever. History doesn't show an overwhelming body of evidence in your favor. Only one instance, Amare in his rookie season.

Posted by McK1:

Steph was the point-guard. He is not supposed to take all the shots. The Suns didn't need that. Looking to get Amare and Joe Johnson the ball was key 1 when Nash tookover not because they went into a cacoon and finally emerged, but because only a BLIND MAN [or BLIND PG] couldn't see what type of potential was there. There is no age or years playing requirement for putting the ball in the hands of guys with the skill level of those 2.

Again you're using revisionist history to try and support your argument. JJ didn't get as many shots, simply because he didn't play as many minutes when Steph was on the team. He shared time with Penny. Once Penny was gone JJ had it all to himself. JJ went from avg. 31mpg in 01-02 and 27 mpg in 02-03 Then with Nash he avg 39mpg and 4 more shots per game, that's hardly beyond reason that he'd get a few more shots off in nearly 10 more minutes per game. Since Steph didn't decide JJ's or anyone else's minutes I don't think you can blame him for that.

Posted by McK1:

We're seeing it now with the rooks and Crawford is the one out there growing game by game with the youngins not Steph and I guess we'll get more insight these next 2 games whether its by attriton r by design. Either way, the fact that steph hasn't even attempted to feed Curry for 1 alley and he was top 5 in dunks lastseason is a brow-raiser. Nate and Craw have hit him.

Oh so now a preseason alleyoop is going to determine whether Steph is a good PG or not? Come on. Really you can't judge a player like Steph on the preseason. As if he needs to prove something. Man Steph is already one of the elite PG's in the league. You can hate on him all you want, but just cuz you don't like him, it doesn't make your arguments against him any stronger. I still haven't seen a real concrete set of evidence that Steph is somehow a team killer from the PG position. He is the Knicks best PG and that's all there is to it.

excellent points from all. Good pure basketball conversation! I enjoyed this!

That is what WE, meaning I, The Great Allanfan20 and my 356,352,345 fans, call F'in hilarious.

nixluva

all we have is Steph and the guys he has played with histories to go on. In their collective history we find the statistical evidence of Steph's failures thus far as a point.

Judging Steph against other points who played with the same guys he did is a fair measure of the positive or negative impact he had on the development of the team and teammates since after all he was considered a point guard!

Its fact that Steph's former star big men saw the ball alot more when Steph was replaced.

As per Amare, if a guy is giving you 20 ppg after missing a good portion of the start of the season in year 2, much of it coming with even more attention being focused on stopping him with Steph GONE, odds are he was capable of the same in year 1.

He avg'd 13.5 points while only taking about 12 shots. What bigger indicator is there than that? Amare being a rookie didn't stop the coach from starting him 71 games and playing him 31 minutes. He didn't have him out there because of his vast experience, he had him out there for his incredible scoring ability b/c afterall he was - as you continually state - a rookie straight out of high-school.

the oop thing:

you don't think Steph showing some inkling of chemistry with Curry is important? You don't think Steph showing he has the timing down on a play LB routinely calls is important? No suprise since you also believe the guys he has played with statistical histories shouldn't hold water in an argument against Steph being a good point guard.

Well nixluva, what evidence can you present to show that Steph was an effective floor general for his career and is the best NY has as well. Let me guess 20 and 8.

and in 02-03 JJ played 27.5 mpg.

-----

oohah

I doubt the self proclaimed World's Greatest Point would ever put such English on it. Its OK though because Isiah would. Of course noone would believe thats how Steph actually feels but it will still be fun to hear Isiah say it.

The only 2 bigs that had low FGA's were KMart a rookie and Amare a rookie.

I would like to add that Kenyon Martin and Amare Stoudamire were hardly suffering in their rookie years, they did both get Rookie of the Year Awards. I wonder how many point guards have been the primary feeder to two ROY's?

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 10-25-2005 1:57 PM]

Posted by oohah:

The only 2 bigs that had low FGA's were KMart a rookie and Amare a rookie.

I would like to add that Kenyon Martin and Amare Stoudamire were hardly suffering in their rookie years, they did both get Rookie of the Year Awards. I wonder how many point guards have been the primary feeder to two ROY's?

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 10-25-2005 1:57 PM]

I'll guess: Bob Cousey?

before that game and before the proclamation, steph was the man in terms of the last shot, after that proclamation, he was all alone...I don't see anything P.P. (post proclamation [sp?]) as an indicator of steph's career.

After he said he was the best point guard ever, the sky came crashing down on everyone.

New year, old steph, happy fan.

no doubt

Posted by efw:

Excellent question oohah.

This notiont that Steph didn't feed Amare enough his rookie year is ridiculous. Amare got more than enough touches. You don't treat a rookie as your MIP right away (Lebron is the exception to every rule, including gravity). Take Dwight Howard. He was better last year than Amare was his rookie season and he still wasn't the focal point.

What further makes this "Steph was holding Amare back" theory a non-point is the fact that KG in his rookie year (before Steph arrived) only got 735 attempts that season. They both were fresh out of high school and rookies and Amare got more shots in his rookie year than KG, was KG being held back? If he was, he sure was let loose when Steph stepped onto the scene when he got KG 1100 shots per game.

That argument is really stupid. There are a handful of players who come into the game averaging 1100 attempts per game. They are either superstars who dominate right away, or they are budding stars who are on really sucky teams. Amare doesn't fit into either category.

Furthermore to talk about the Nets team success, when more than half of the players on that squad missed more than 40% of the games in a shortened season, is ridiculous. 31 games to gel and take a team full of injured or fresh off of IR guys to the playoffs? Thats totally unreasonable.

McK1, thanks for recounting what was probably the worst finish of Steph's career, but I fail to see your point. That example that you highlighted was the exception and not the rule. The way you try to make the exception the rule and twist facts and bend logic is reminiscent of G.W. Bush connecting Iraq to the events on 9/11.

Mck1, you hate Steph with the passion of a jilted lover. Did he screw your highschool sweetheart or something?





[Edited by - killa4luv on 10-25-2005 2:46 PM]

it's wierd, in the end, mck1 just really hates marbury.

Suprised...I really didn't think any fans Hated their best player.

no doubt

its equally rediculous that some don't see a problem with Steph taking 1500 shots and Amare 8.

It certainly would be if this was true.