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Knight
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8/11/2005  1:31 PM
Posted by islesfan:

If being over the cap is so great then how come Isiah and the Knicks are the only ones in the entire NBA who completely disregard being over it? Any team could be over it if they wanted but every other team works to get under it to maintain financial flexibility.

Don't take my word for it. Don't take Fish's word for it or anybody else who has a brain and can understand it. Take the word and actions of every other GM in the NBA. I think they know more about the cap and the positives of being under the cap as opposed to the negatives of being over the cap, than any of us do. But you Kool-Aid drinkers will tell us how Isiah is right and everybody else is wrong.

With that in mind, why are you even bothering Fish?

But JJ isn't a cap killer--look at the rest of the Knicks salaries. Let's see if we are dedicating threads to JJ's "egregious" contract in two years... For some reason, I highly doubt it.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
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franco12
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8/11/2005  1:32 PM
Posted by islesfan:

If being over the cap is so great then how come Isiah and the Knicks are the only ones in the entire NBA who completely disregard being over it? Any team could be over it if they wanted but every other team works to get under it to maintain financial flexibility.

Don't take my word for it. Don't take Fish's word for it or anybody else who has a brain and can understand it. Take the word and actions of every other GM in the NBA. I think they know more about the cap and the positives of being under the cap as opposed to the negatives of being over the cap, than any of us do. But you Kool-Aid drinkers will tell us how Isiah is right and everybody else is wrong.

With that in mind, why are you even bothering Fish?

Not every team can afford to be over the cap- a lot of teams are like Atlanta.

You have Dallas, the sixers and you have portland re-working their whole roster.

I hope TT & Penny & Houston- or at least two of those three deals are allowed to just expire and come off the books. That is a $35M reduction potentially in salary from $105m to $70+M- still a high number, but more respectable.

I'll be with you & fish (can't believe you two are agreeing) if TT & Penny get converted into garbage.
Knight
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8/11/2005  1:51 PM
I think there's more to negotiations than people realize. Yes, it would have been nice to sign JJ to a 2 or 3 year deal but this is real life not a video game. If you really believe in a player you are bringing to your team, if you expect alot out of a player you are negotiating with--then you give him a contract that reflects that. Maybe you give him a little more money and an extra year or two to show him that not only do you believe in his talent but that you expect him to work hard and improve his game--it's a show of good faith and a player is more likely to respond to that than a team who says to him "You really haven't showed much in the past, so we don't know what to think of you, we hope you do well but we aren't sure, so we are giving you a short term contract." Who would go to an employer and work hard for an employer who acted like that? You know, sometimes people improve because they are lucky enough to have somebody who believes in them and makes an investment in them. James might not be great but if we are going to bring the best out of him then IT is going about it the right way.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
Bonn1997
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8/11/2005  2:21 PM
FYI: Min signed Kandi to 2 years and he was better than JAmes. He got banged up some. Thats a fair comparison.
Kandi signed a 3 year deal. JJ will probably make his 29 mil look like a bargain compared to what the T-Wolves got out of using the full MLE on Kandi.

If being over the cap is so great then how come Isiah and the Knicks are the only ones in the entire NBA who completely disregard being over it? Any team could be over it if they wanted but every other team works to get under it to maintain financial flexibility.
I don't think anyone's saying it's great or that you have to be over the cap. Many people are just saying that it's not terrible. Many championship teams have been over the cap. More importantly, you're statement is false as many teams completely disregard the cap. Many teams are 20 to 50 mil over it.
djsunyc
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8/11/2005  2:23 PM
Posted by Knight:

I think there's more to negotiations than people realize. Yes, it would have been nice to sign JJ to a 2 or 3 year deal but this is real life not a video game. If you really believe in a player you are bringing to your team, if you expect alot out of a player you are negotiating with--then you give him a contract that reflects that. Maybe you give him a little more money and an extra year or two to show him that not only do you believe in his talent but that you expect him to work hard and improve his game--it's a show of good faith and a player is more likely to respond to that than a team who says to him "You really haven't showed much in the past, so we don't know what to think of you, we hope you do well but we aren't sure, so we are giving you a short term contract." Who would go to an employer and work hard for an employer who acted like that? You know, sometimes people improve because they are lucky enough to have somebody who believes in them and makes an investment in them. James might not be great but if we are going to bring the best out of him then IT is going about it the right way.

then you say "thanks for stopping by, see ya later"

jerome james is not a difference maker. and it does seem like a small salary but it's only 1 MILLION LESS than shandon and remember how much we called it an albatross. it's the same as eisley's and spoon. and they stay on the court much much longer than james EVER did. granted they all were moved...but were moved to bigger and longer deals - a practice that needs to be stopped here.

i think james is a really good fit for us. i think he's going to help us next year, i think he's going to help us two years from now BUT what this deal really is about is years 3-5. only then can we really see whether it was worth it or not.

history has shown that he's NOT worth it.

now it's up to LB to get the most out of him, otherwise he'll just be added to the long list of overpaid stiffs we bring in here. if he stays on the floor 25+ mins a night, the signing is a COUP. but if he's 5/3 for 16 - then it's an AWFUL deal. i would think it's safe to assume we could get 5/3 from jackie butler in 17 mins a night for 1/100th of the price.

there's hope...but like fish said, that's all we have...hope - nothing tangible.

knicks 05/06 - ALL QUESTIONS
Bonn1997
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8/11/2005  2:24 PM
Bonn, this year's FA class sucked, and if the 07 class sucks also and your not confident you can use the cap space to trade for a bigtime player already under contract then you have the option to just keep Marbury and go with what you have.
FA classes far in advance (like 2007) always look great and then they usually suck like this one because the top superstars just sign extensions with their own teams before they even become FAs for a lot more than they could get from any team under the cap. Of course there are occasional exceptions, but they're extremely rare.
Bonn1997
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8/11/2005  2:25 PM
jerome james is not a difference maker.
In the playoffs he has been; he just hasn't been in the regular season. If you've watched him in the playoffs, you know that he can be a difference maker and it's simply unknown whether he will be.
islesfan
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8/11/2005  2:33 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

If being over the cap is so great then how come Isiah and the Knicks are the only ones in the entire NBA who completely disregard being over it? Any team could be over it if they wanted but every other team works to get under it to maintain financial flexibility.
I don't think anyone's saying it's great or that you have to be over the cap. Many people are just saying that it's not terrible. Many championship teams have been over the cap. More importantly, you're statement is false as many teams completely disregard the cap. Many teams are 20 to 50 mil over it.

And how many of those championship teams were this far over the cap as they built themselves into championship teams. Name them.

Use just a little bit of logic. Being over the cap and completely disregarding the cap are 2 completely different things. Just because you're over the cap doesn't mean that you dismiss it like Isiah does. Again, name the teams that completely disregard the cap like the Knicks are doing under Isiah.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
rvhoss
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8/11/2005  2:34 PM
Our point exactly.

Why blame JJ?
Posted by franco12:

I'll be with you & fish (can't believe you two are agreeing) if TT & Penny get converted into garbage.
all kool aid all the time.
djsunyc
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8/11/2005  2:39 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

Our point exactly.

Why blame JJ?

you're right. i blame YOU rv...i blame YOU
franco12
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8/11/2005  2:39 PM
Posted by djsunyc:



jerome james is not a difference maker. and it does seem like a small salary but it's only 1 MILLION LESS than shandon and remember how much we called it an albatross. it's the same as eisley's and spoon. and they stay on the court much much longer than james EVER did. granted they all were moved...but were moved to bigger and longer deals - a practice that needs to be stopped here.

Wrong- Shandon's contract was much worse:

08/17/01: TRADE FINALIZED: After being satisfied with the health of Glen Rice, the Rockets approved the Knicks/Mavs/Rockets trade from Aug. 10th. The Rockets signed Shandon Anderson to a 6-year, $41 million contract and traded him to the Knicks.

http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/293/shandon_anderson/

Clarence's #'s were similar.

And one difference- PF, SF & PG are supposed to be skilled positions- there are too many really outstanding players to have bad players there- 7 footers are rare and if you have someone like an Etan Thomas, or other player (Mihm?), you are happy to have a tall center
fishmike
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8/11/2005  2:46 PM
thank you DJ. This is such backwards thinking. So the FA calls the shots? Sorry, but 30 year old centers that play 50 games a year and average 5/4 and 4.5 fouls dont dictate their own market, unless they are dealing with idiots.

FA classes far in advance (like 2007) always look great and then they usually suck like this one because the top superstars just sign extensions with their own teams before they even become FAs for a lot more than they could get from any team under the cap. Of course there are occasional exceptions, but they're extremely rare.
right... so why ever participate right? ITs not just FAs. If you have cap space you can take back big $$$ without sending it. Something you should be a HUGE fan of. The whole point of this is we arent depending on cap space to yield us anything, we are just using it as an option, and whats the cost? Passing on guys like Jerome James and trading Malik Rose for crap. Some price to pay.

Again... what if Nate is great? Wouldnt it be nice to trade MArbury AND set ourselves up for a massive trade or FA signing?

Allow me: no, apparently not
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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8/11/2005  3:03 PM
i think what's getting lost in this whole discussion is FLEXIBILITY.

every GM has a plan. sometimes they work from the get-go, sometimes they don't. but UNLESS you have roster flexibility, if it doesn't work out, you're STUCK.

remember how we were stuck with layden's crap from 01-04? that's THREE years. isiah made ALOT of moves, some worked, some haven't. but the more moves he makes, the less flexible we're going to be in the event it doesn't work out. and that could mean anything, like craw doesn't develop or marbury breaks an ankle.

i understand giving up future cap space for a player like marbury - he's a stud. or a player like crawford who's shown GREAT potential before we brought him year. but losing future cap space to guys like jerome james, and possibly malik rose - that's what hurts us and may leave us STUCK from 05-08. it's like a cycle that doesn't want to get broken.

that's why isiah has been mediocre at best here. he has brought in a lot of young talent. he's paid for it, but he's brought it in. but he hasn't helped the cap situation any and has made mistakes with the non youth on the team.

i still think his defining moments will be this deadline and next summer. what he does with tim + penny + h20 will tell ALOT. and he kind of needs to step it up a bit with LB in tow now.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 08/11/2005 15:08:55]
Masterplan
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8/11/2005  3:06 PM
i'd also add, you guys downplay JJ's contract, but deos anyone else want it? can we trade it? i seriously doubt it for all the sugarcoating it gets here. that's another kind of flexibility that we are missing by accumulating contracts no one else wants.
djsunyc
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8/11/2005  3:10 PM
Posted by Masterplan:

i'd also add, you guys downplay JJ's contract, but deos anyone else want it? can we trade it? i seriously doubt it for all the sugarcoating it gets here. that's another kind of flexibility that we are missing by accumulating contracts no one else wants.

well that's the thing - i think we CAN trade it (probably after 3 years but we CAN) but it will perpetuate the vicious salary cap cycle. not once did we trade for a player with LESS or EQUAL years.
franco12
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8/11/2005  3:13 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

i think what's getting lost in this whole discussion is FLEXIBILITY.

every GM has a plan. sometimes they work from the get-go, sometimes they don't. but UNLESS you have roster flexibility, if it doesn't work out, you're STUCK.

remember how we were stuck with layden's crap from 01-04? that's THREE years. isiah made ALOT of moves, some worked, some haven't. but the more moves he makes, the less flexible we're going to be in the event it doesn't work out. and that could mean anything, like craw doesn't develop or marbury breaks an ankle.

i understand giving up future cap space for a player like marbury - he's a stud. or a player like crawford who's shown GREAT potential before we brought him year. but losing future cap space to guys like jerome james, and possibly malik rose - that's what hurts us and may leave us STUCK from 05-08. it's like a cycle that doesn't want to get broken.

that's why isiah has been mediocre at best here. he has brought in a lot of young talent. he's paid for it, but he's brought it in. but he hasn't helped the cap situation any and has made mistakes with the non youth on the team.

i still think his defining moments will be this deadline and next summer. what he does with tim + penny + h20 will tell ALOT. and he kind of needs to step it up a bit with LB in tow now.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 08/11/2005 15:08:55]

I'd argue getting Mo T enabled Isiah to move KT and get Q & Nate. Adding JJ might enable Isiah to move Sweets & that will depend on how frye does.

I think most of the moves isiah has made has increased flexibility-

Nazr was turned into Rose & David Lee & more youth.

You would have prefered we just let Nazr walk when his contract was up?

Like someone said- this isn't a video game. Isiah got here and there was garbage- its not like he had a lot to work with. Who was calling begging for our players?
simrud
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8/11/2005  3:38 PM
You think gettin Taylor somehow allows us to trade KT, are you insane?

Do you not notice Sweetney, Rose, and JYD already on the freakin roster?

Let me get this straight, we can only go into the season with at least 4 PF's on the roster, is that it? Thats why we got a 5th one just in case we trade one that we already have?

Idiots who liked the Mo Taylor trade man up!!!
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Bonn1997
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8/11/2005  3:54 PM
Posted by Masterplan:

i'd also add, you guys downplay JJ's contract, but deos anyone else want it? can we trade it? i seriously doubt it for all the sugarcoating it gets here. that's another kind of flexibility that we are missing by accumulating contracts no one else wants.
Again, it depends on how he plays. If he's half the player he was in the playoffs, then yes, his $5 mil annual salary will have great trade value.
fishmike
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8/11/2005  4:08 PM
you right Bonn, it does depend on how he plays. hopefully he doesnt play like he has for every year in his entire career.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knight
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8/11/2005  5:54 PM
Posted by fishmike:

you right Bonn, it does depend on how he plays. hopefully he doesnt play like he has for every year in his entire career.

I'll take his numbers in college. He just needs to learn to stay out of foul trouble, I think LB could help him with that.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
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