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Before we give Herb the Job...
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gunsnewing
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4/26/2005  11:59 AM
Herb comes from the school of Riley & JVG. He is not the right guy to have calling the shots and developing our young players. Aguirre can work with them all he likes but it comes down to whether Herb is going to trust them to put them in the game and risk his lame duct status job.

He's aready shown he's an inexperienced coach but maybe he will be a good coach after all the years under Riley and JVG but the problem is JVG coached a team that was already in place. He didn't have to develop players. I think Herb would be a lot better off coaching a decent veteran team than a rebuilding one.

We need a coach who is going to develop our players since the talent level of this team needs to be upgraded not play the Maliks, KTs of the world over our draft picks.

So after Phil turns us down to go into a much safer situation with Kobe, Butler & a great trade asset like Odom in place and every wants to resign Herb. Reason being that he will be a good transition for this team.

Think about how good a transition will he be if he doesn't develop the young players who are the players who will make this a good team eventually.

Now if we're going to trade for the Finley's, Ray Allens, Randolphs of the world then I guess we can give Herb the job and he can do what JVG did for the Knicks

Personally, I would go after a true transitional developemental coach who will get the most out of our young guys. 6

Problem is which coach out there is going to put his job at risk in New York? Flip Saunders played KG and Wally, Nate McMillian developed Rashard.

I really like Mark Jackson and I think he will be a great coach since he's such a professional & leader and a very smart veteran and will hopefully teach Marbury and Crawford how to play PG the right way. But will he play the youth knowing he will be under the microscope as every coach in New York will be unless they are Phil Jackson or Pat Riley?

We need a coach who won't be afraid to take chances because it can be more rewarding for them to develop the young players instead of losing with the Maliks, KT's of the world and getting fired after a 30win season anyway.

What do you guys think? think about it...

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 04/26/2005 12:01:07]
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TMS
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4/26/2005  12:05 PM
haven't we discussed possible coaching possibilities on like 10 other threads already?

get a bigname coach or stick w/Herb.

[Edited by - TMS on 04/26/2005 12:06:39]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
gunsnewing
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4/26/2005  12:19 PM
Posted by TMS:

haven't we discussed possible coaching possibilities on like 10 other threads already?

get a bigname coach or stick w/Herb.

[Edited by - TMS on 04/26/2005 12:06:39]

yeah but in those 5pages no one brought up how it takes a coach who will risk playing our draft picks not the veterans who lead us to 30win seasons.

A lot of people are ready to give Herb the job if Phil goes to LA without looking at the facts and seeing that Herb will not play our draft picks, ariza, sweetney and butler over the Maliks, KTs of the world.


All this effort and hope we're putting into the draft will go to waste with Herb as coach.

We'll be better off with Isiah coaching and developing is own players since he's already under contract and things can't get any worse for him.
TMS
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4/26/2005  12:29 PM
sure it has...i've heard names like Flip, Nate, Jax, Pitino & Izzo brought up for that specific reason...some posters would rather have a coach who'll give young guys a shot to play...even Isiah's name has been brought up by several posters, including myself, to take over this team because he can afford to let his young guys get playing time to show what they can do...afterall, he's the President of the Knicks & he'll have drafted or signed these kids to begin with...

the fact remains, you bring in a mediocre coach yet again into this situation & it just gives this team yet another excuse to stink next year...i don't want anymore interim coaches...i want a longterm solution who can build some continuity & nurture a definite philosophy of winning within this franchise...we need a guy w/clout & caché.
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gunsnewing
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4/26/2005  12:37 PM
Posted by TMS:

sure it has...i've heard names like Flip, Nate, Jax, Pitino & Izzo brought up for that specific reason...some posters would rather have a coach who'll give young guys a shot to play...even Isiah's name has been brought up by several posters, including myself, to take over this team because he can afford to let his young guys get playing time to show what they can do...afterall, he's the President of the Knicks & he'll have drafted or signed these kids to begin with...

the fact remains, you bring in a mediocre coach yet again into this situation & it just gives this team yet another excuse to stink next year...i don't want anymore interim coaches...i want a longterm solution who can build some continuity & nurture a definite philosophy of winning within this franchise...we need a guy w/clout & caché.

great post!
I just wanted to make a thread about it so that it is clear and not lost in those 5 pages because it is really important that they decide if they want a coach who is going to help the rebuilding process or hurt it by putting his needs ahead of the teams.
joec32033
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4/26/2005  12:45 PM
TMS I agree 100%, and I just wanted to add a little more to the conversation. In my opinion, I think that NY is not the best place for a rookie coach to develop and we NEED a coach who is confident in his skills and will not doubt himself when the media and the fans scream for his head. ANY new coach (Like a Greg Anthony, or a Mark Jackson) may not make it here with NY as the first stop. I just don't think NY has the type of fans or management that would be supportive a weak coach.

I also am weary of throwing out names of guys I have never seen coach (like Anthony or Jackson), I like the way Herb coaches and I like his focus on defense. Flip may also be a good decision.

On a side note, Phil Jackson is an intriguing choice if for no other reason it signals that there almost certainly will be a HUGE roster turnover.
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Pharzeone
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4/26/2005  1:02 PM
To follow your point, Guns, about getting a coach who likes to play younger guys. The best guy for the job, is actually Isiah. He loves to play young guys in Indiana. His players love him and developed nicely under him and Aquire. He is a better developer than he is an X and O's guy.
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TMS
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4/26/2005  1:02 PM
the 1 exception to that has been Jeff Van Gundy, but he learned under an elite coach in Pat Riley & he was set up perfectly by Riley to succeed after he left because he implemented the same defensive schemes & had good personnel & a talented roster to work with...we all saw what happened once VG saw that the roster would not be good enough to contend in the East...he bolted for greener pastures...how long would he have lasted in NY w/a roster like the one we have now before he became a "proven NBA" coach? my guess is not too long.

i say hand over the reigns to a guy like Riley, Jackson or Brown & let them develop a winning style & mentality...these players are so used to losing that it's become almost acceptable to them...you can see it in their body language...that needs to stop, & we need a proven WINNER to come here & make these guys start believing that having a loser's mentality only leads to being labeled as a loser yourself.

if you can't get any of those 3, either Isiah or Herb needs to stay on course until they get the type of roster that can contend...there's no other better options out there.

[Edited by - TMS on 04/26/2005 13:03:46]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
diderotn
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4/26/2005  1:08 PM
That is the biggest excuse I have ever heard. If we trade Kurt and Malik, there is no way our youngins won't get in the game. The bottom line is that Herb feels a certain solidarity for Kurt, that had rendered him blind to what our other youngins can offer.

Posted by joec32033:

TMS I agree 100%, and I just wanted to add a little more to the conversation. In my opinion, I think that NY is not the best place for a rookie coach to develop and we NEED a coach who is confident in his skills and will not doubt himself when the media and the fans scream for his head. ANY new coach (Like a Greg Anthony, or a Mark Jackson) may not make it here with NY as the first stop. I just don't think NY has the type of fans or management that would be supportive a weak coach.

I also am weary of throwing out names of guys I have never seen coach (like Anthony or Jackson), I like the way Herb coaches and I like his focus on defense. Flip may also be a good decision.

On a side note, Phil Jackson is an intriguing choice if for no other reason it signals that there almost certainly will be a HUGE roster turnover.
The true Knickabocker..........
joec32033
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4/26/2005  1:18 PM
Posted by diderotn:

That is the biggest excuse I have ever heard. If we trade Kurt and Malik, there is no way our youngins won't get in the game. The bottom line is that Herb feels a certain solidarity for Kurt, that had rendered him blind to what our other youngins can offer.

Posted by joec32033:

TMS I agree 100%, and I just wanted to add a little more to the conversation. In my opinion, I think that NY is not the best place for a rookie coach to develop and we NEED a coach who is confident in his skills and will not doubt himself when the media and the fans scream for his head. ANY new coach (Like a Greg Anthony, or a Mark Jackson) may not make it here with NY as the first stop. I just don't think NY has the type of fans or management that would be supportive a weak coach.

I also am weary of throwing out names of guys I have never seen coach (like Anthony or Jackson), I like the way Herb coaches and I like his focus on defense. Flip may also be a good decision.

On a side note, Phil Jackson is an intriguing choice if for no other reason it signals that there almost certainly will be a HUGE roster turnover.

Dider, what are you talking about? I have said nothing about getting our younger players in I focused soley on the coach and his reaction to coaching in NY. I also pointed out that if Phil comes here, there will be a HUGE roster shakeup.
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diderotn
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4/26/2005  1:22 PM
I replied by using that thread, but I do agree with your comments. Our youngins will only get in the game if and only if Herb is not our coach....He proves that he learned from Van Gundy and Riley by not playing our youngins enough.

Posted by joec32033:
Posted by diderotn:

That is the biggest excuse I have ever heard. If we trade Kurt and Malik, there is no way our youngins won't get in the game. The bottom line is that Herb feels a certain solidarity for Kurt, that had rendered him blind to what our other youngins can offer.

Posted by joec32033:

TMS I agree 100%, and I just wanted to add a little more to the conversation. In my opinion, I think that NY is not the best place for a rookie coach to develop and we NEED a coach who is confident in his skills and will not doubt himself when the media and the fans scream for his head. ANY new coach (Like a Greg Anthony, or a Mark Jackson) may not make it here with NY as the first stop. I just don't think NY has the type of fans or management that would be supportive a weak coach.

I also am weary of throwing out names of guys I have never seen coach (like Anthony or Jackson), I like the way Herb coaches and I like his focus on defense. Flip may also be a good decision.

On a side note, Phil Jackson is an intriguing choice if for no other reason it signals that there almost certainly will be a HUGE roster turnover.

Dider, what are you talking about? I have said nothing about getting our younger players in I focused soley on the coach and his reaction to coaching in NY. I also pointed out that if Phil comes here, there will be a HUGE roster shakeup.
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BigAppleStar3
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4/26/2005  1:36 PM
Herb Williams was 16-26 and the team quit in many games. How on can you bring him back?
Silverfuel
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4/26/2005  5:56 PM
I am really against bringing in guys like Flip and Mo Cheeks. They both had decent teams with more talent than the Knicks have and their teams quit on them. Flip and Mo Cheeks are both fired and their teams which both have good to very good players havent wont anything. I would be really worried about bringing in guys like that.

If we are going to bring in a coach thats a rookie and not sign Herb, I tihnk it should be Greg Anthony.
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rojasmas
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4/26/2005  6:09 PM
I agree with Big Apple. Herb did nothing to deserve a full time job. The team never accomplished anything for him like the Nets did for Frank when he replaced Byron Scott. He seems nice enough and probably relates to players well but in the end, they didn't get it done for him so he should be gone. It's a cold world, but I guarantee you a guy like Fratello would have gotten more out of this bunch down the stretch. And matter of fact should have been hired over Lenny in the first place. It's not about style, it's about W's.
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gunsnewing
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4/26/2005  11:21 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:

I am really against bringing in guys like Flip and Mo Cheeks. They both had decent teams with more talent than the Knicks have and their teams quit on them. Flip and Mo Cheeks are both fired and their teams which both have good to very good players havent wont anything. I would be really worried about bringing in guys like that.

If we are going to bring in a coach thats a rookie and not sign Herb, I tihnk it should be Greg Anthony.

but Greg Anthony has not coaching experience, he's a TV analyst not a coach. At least Herb had a ton of years as an assistant

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 04/26/2005 23:23:45]
Vmart
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4/26/2005  11:32 PM
I can not say it enough. Hiring Herb is a big mistake. It will be another stupid move in the many sti=upid decisons made by IT. People don't fall for that hype the players play hard for him and give Herb a training camp. This is the same stuff that the Knicks threw at the fans with Wilkens. Its a big mistake and its repeating mistakes over and over again. My first choice is Phil Jackson. Second choice is Mo Cheeks. Brown I think will stay in Detroit and I think they may win another title this year and why walk away from a good thing. My dark horse choice is Mark Ivaroni. But under no circumstance should Herb be given a chance with this team you might as well forfiet the season next year because Herb doesn't have it to be a good NBA coach.
TMS
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4/27/2005  1:10 AM
what's the difference between Maurice Cheeks & Herb Williams? the Blazers haven't been good for several years & they've had better talent on their team than the Knicks by far...at least Herb is familiar w/the players here & they are to him...if you don't want another year of excuses being placed on lack of a full training camp under a certain coach, then i don't see the point in even bothering w/a guy like Mo Cheeks.
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Rich
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4/27/2005  1:13 AM
Herb damaged the Knicks most valuable asset: their 1st round pick. He is a disgrace.
Silverfuel
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4/27/2005  1:41 AM
Posted by Rich:

Herb damaged the Knicks most valuable asset: their 1st round pick. He is a disgrace.
Its not just Herb that did that. The entire organization decided to do that. You think Herb would go agianst Isiah or Jim Dolan's wishes? No. It is not just Herbs fault that the Knicks didnt tank games.
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Rich
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4/27/2005  1:56 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by Rich:

Herb damaged the Knicks most valuable asset: their 1st round pick. He is a disgrace.
Its not just Herb that did that. The entire organization decided to do that. You think Herb would go agianst Isiah or Jim Dolan's wishes? No. It is not just Herbs fault that the Knicks didnt tank games.

I want them all gone. Isiah is a sellout, and Dolan is a moron, who, but for his father's money, would be selling pencils on Park Avenue.

But Herb is the only one who there is a chance to get rid of now.

btw, Do you think he was ordered to play an injured Marbury down the stretch, and forbidden from playing Butler?
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