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question... does anyone here doubt we are trying to win?
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fishmike
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4/4/2005  4:41 PM
Watching these games the last month does anyone doubt our goal is to win each one?

I'm watching these games... we play Crawford 40 minutes, Marbury 40 minutes, KT 40 minutes, TT 36 minutes, Ariza gets 1-2 subs, Sweetney is out at the first sign of trouble, the bench Mo T and Malik Rose... I mean we are playing every game to win right? These are the Knicks best players and Herb is riding them.

Only one thing... we cant win. Not only are we losing, but we are going up against teams with LONG losing streaks... 8 games, 6 games, 8 games.. thats 3 weeks of losing. Then the Knicks come to town and its W's for all. To boot these teams are tanking. GS doesnt care, Portland doesnt care, Milw doesnt care, we care and we still get smoked.

I've been harping about style of play and balancing the roster but this is one of the worst teams in the NBA, plain and simple. Its a little scary that we cant get wins against teams play < .400 ball.

Is anyone else concerned about this? I hate being pessimistic but man...show me something to be excited about.
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TMS
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4/4/2005  4:44 PM
i could care less at this point...baseball season is here & i'm not even concerned about what happens w/this team anymore until draft night to be totally honest...as much of a bandwagoner as that makes me sound, it's the result of 6 years of the same old crap every year...i automatically become numb to the team's situation after they're eliminated from playoff contention...it's a good thing Time Warner isn't showing the games right now because i don't need the grief of watching this team try their best to win only to fall short on a nightly basis & not even play their young guys to evaluate what they have going into the offseason.
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tomverve
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4/4/2005  4:49 PM
It's pretty clear that Herb is coaching to win, not so clear our players are playing as hard as they were immediately following the AS break (of course, I can't really tell since I haven't been able to watch the games). But in the last game, a big deal was made of the apparent fact that the players didn't play hard most of the game.

Why be pessimistic? Would you rather that we be winning these games? If not, why complain? If we were on a big winning streak, you'd probably be complaining about how we were blowing our draft position.

I think it's likely that there's not as complete of a team effort as there could be since our playoff chances are pretty much toast. Is it indicative of an underlying problem that could come back to bite us in the future? Maybe, maybe not. We don't know, especially with the specter of a coaching change and roster turnover on the horizon. What we DO know is we're getting a better draft pick if this keeps up. I, for one, am not complaining about that at all.
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djsunyc
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4/4/2005  4:50 PM
hence why i think this is the worst knicks team i have seen since 97.
gunsnewing
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4/4/2005  4:54 PM
it very alarming because it makes you think a guy like Green would rot on the bench for years and not even get 10mins a night
Bonn1997
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4/4/2005  4:55 PM
Posted by tomverve:

It's pretty clear that Herb is coaching to win, not so clear our players are playing as hard as they were immediately following the AS break (of course, I can't really tell since I haven't been able to watch the games). But in the last game, a big deal was made of the apparent fact that the players didn't play hard most of the game.

Why be pessimistic? Would you rather that we be winning these games? If not, why complain? If we were on a big winning streak, you'd probably be complaining about how we were blowing our draft position.

I think it's likely that there's not as complete of a team effort as there could be since our playoff chances are pretty much toast. Is it indicative of an underlying problem that could come back to bite us in the future? Maybe, maybe not. We don't know, especially with the specter of a coaching change and roster turnover on the horizon. What we DO know is we're getting a better draft pick if this keeps up. I, for one, am not complaining about that at all.
that's a great post!
gunsnewing
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4/4/2005  4:55 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

hence why i think this is the worst knicks team i have seen since 97.

97 was a great Knicks team! could've given the Bulls a run for their money. much more than the heat did!
fishmike
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4/4/2005  5:08 PM
my complaint is we have all new players signed to longer deals and we cant beat 20 win teams.

As much as I love Marbury had we just let McDyess walk, bought out Eiley, let Ward walk, let Deke, Harrington, and Travis walk, buyout Spoon and Shandon and fill the roster with whoever we got in the draft and CBA players I think we could have been as good as we are now. Only difference is we could offer Amare and Lebron max money in two years.

It nauseates me to be happy about losses. THATS what I am complaining about more than anything. That we are in WORSE position then we were with Layden when HE had the 7th pick and traded for McDyess. WORSE
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crzymdups
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4/4/2005  5:09 PM
I'm all about draft position. I wish Zeke would bench Kurt (for his injury) let Sweets and Ariza prove something. Get Jackie Butler some burn. Play Steph 30 minutes max. Give Jamal 18 minutes at the point and 20 at the SG, he needs the development time.

The problem here is that Herb is coaching for a job and some of the players are playing for him, while others have given up on the season, realizing the playoffs are shot (6.5 games out with 10 to go).

Personally, I can't blame these guys for giving in now when it's realistically over. I wish Zeke would help the process along by resting Kurt (then again, the last time we won was without Kurt) and maybe even resting Tim. I want a great draft pick. As for the team's resiliency, the fact that they showed up at all in February after the season imploded in January told me they had some heart.
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TMS
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4/4/2005  5:14 PM
Posted by tomverve:

It's pretty clear that Herb is coaching to win, not so clear our players are playing as hard as they were immediately following the AS break (of course, I can't really tell since I haven't been able to watch the games). But in the last game, a big deal was made of the apparent fact that the players didn't play hard most of the game.

Why be pessimistic? Would you rather that we be winning these games? If not, why complain? If we were on a big winning streak, you'd probably be complaining about how we were blowing our draft position.

I think it's likely that there's not as complete of a team effort as there could be since our playoff chances are pretty much toast. Is it indicative of an underlying problem that could come back to bite us in the future? Maybe, maybe not. We don't know, especially with the specter of a coaching change and roster turnover on the horizon. What we DO know is we're getting a better draft pick if this keeps up. I, for one, am not complaining about that at all.

i'm just stating the fact that it's sad to see this team try their best to win only to fall short on a nightly basis...i don't like watching them lose ever, no matter what the situation is & how much better it is to get a better draft position, which is why i don't tune in anymore to what's going on...i was happy as hell to see the scores on ESPN saying they had lost the game vs. MIL the other night, but if i had watched that game i'd be pulling my hair out the entire time over how futile it is to root for a team that can't even beat a crappy team like the MIL Bucks...don't try & assume what i'd be doing if the team were winning & making a push for the playoffs, because i'd be here rooting like hell every night for a win...that's the type of fan i am.
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tomverve
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4/4/2005  5:21 PM
Posted by fishmike:

It nauseates me to be happy about losses. THATS what I am complaining about more than anything. That we are in WORSE position then we were with Layden when HE had the 7th pick and traded for McDyess. WORSE

Sorry, disagree (although I was almost persuaded by the caps). What did that team have? The big pieces were Houston, Sprewell, Camby, and the #7 pick. Layden pissed away the latter two for nothing, leaving us essentially with just Houston and Sprewell. We traded Sprewell for KVH who begat TT; a lineage of more or less lateral moves. That leaves Houston, who's since become a McDyess in his own right.

Let's take stock. Of the major assets of that team, what remains? TT, via Sprewell. Everything else is gone. Any wonder why we're bad right now? Good teams keep chains of assets going over time, converting them as needed. Look at what Ernie did; instead of lose Oak and Starks to the ravanges of time, he turned them into Spree and Camby. Layden cut that process short, meaning that we're basically starting from (expensive) scratch.

Fortunately, Isiah managed to salvage McDyess by turning him into Marbury. So, what is it now... Marbury, Crawford, TT, KT, Sweets, Ariza, and a #6-9 instead of Houston, KVH, KT, and Frank Williams? As long as we don't lose two of our better assets for nothing, we're guaranteed to be in better shape this summer than 2 summers ago.
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crzymdups
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4/4/2005  5:24 PM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by fishmike:

It nauseates me to be happy about losses. THATS what I am complaining about more than anything. That we are in WORSE position then we were with Layden when HE had the 7th pick and traded for McDyess. WORSE

Sorry, disagree (although I was almost persuaded by the caps). What did that team have? The big pieces were Houston, Sprewell, Camby, and the #7 pick. Layden pissed away the latter two for nothing, leaving us essentially with just Houston and Sprewell. We traded Sprewell for KVH who begat TT; a lineage of more or less lateral moves. That leaves Houston, who's since become a McDyess in his own right.

Let's take stock. Of the major assets of that team, what remains? TT, via Sprewell. Everything else is gone. Any wonder why we're bad right now? Good teams keep chains of assets going over time, converting them as needed. Look at what Ernie did; instead of lose Oak and Starks to the ravanges of time, he turned them into Spree and Camby. Layden cut that process short, meaning that we're basically starting from (expensive) scratch.

Fortunately, Isiah managed to salvage McDyess by turning him into Marbury. So, what is it now... Marbury, Crawford, TT, KT, Sweets, Ariza, and a #6-9 instead of Houston, KVH, KT, and Frank Williams? As long as we don't lose two of our better assets for nothing, we're guaranteed to be in better shape this summer than 2 summers ago.

Yup. Agreed. (though, it would be nice to get Frank back this summer)
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Bonn1997
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4/4/2005  5:47 PM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by fishmike:

It nauseates me to be happy about losses. THATS what I am complaining about more than anything. That we are in WORSE position then we were with Layden when HE had the 7th pick and traded for McDyess. WORSE

Sorry, disagree (although I was almost persuaded by the caps). What did that team have? The big pieces were Houston, Sprewell, Camby, and the #7 pick. Layden pissed away the latter two for nothing, leaving us essentially with just Houston and Sprewell. We traded Sprewell for KVH who begat TT; a lineage of more or less lateral moves. That leaves Houston, who's since become a McDyess in his own right.

Let's take stock. Of the major assets of that team, what remains? TT, via Sprewell. Everything else is gone. Any wonder why we're bad right now? Good teams keep chains of assets going over time, converting them as needed. Look at what Ernie did; instead of lose Oak and Starks to the ravanges of time, he turned them into Spree and Camby. Layden cut that process short, meaning that we're basically starting from (expensive) scratch.

Fortunately, Isiah managed to salvage McDyess by turning him into Marbury. So, what is it now... Marbury, Crawford, TT, KT, Sweets, Ariza, and a #6-9 instead of Houston, KVH, KT, and Frank Williams? As long as we don't lose two of our better assets for nothing, we're guaranteed to be in better shape this summer than 2 summers ago.
I'm not distressed by the losses now because I want the team to lose now. You can't blindly look at a team's record Fishy. Many 30 win teams turn it around the next year because they had a lot of good pieces but just couldn't pull off wins that year. I'm glad we have Marbury for the future and Ariza and Crawford and maybe Sweetney. This team will be much better off in the future because it has those players (especially the first two) than it would be in the future without them, even if it finished the regular season somehow with the same record without them as it does with them. For example, when the Grizzlies won 28 games, it was still a good thing that they had Pau Gasol and look at how it's paying off now. They were not in the same shape as 28 win teams without a star like Pau. When the Pistons won 30 games, it was still a good thing that they had Ben Wallace and many of the players who are now still part of their team.
Bonn1997
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4/4/2005  5:49 PM
I was almost persuaded by the caps
LOL
Bonn1997
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4/4/2005  5:54 PM
The idea of getting Lebron or Amare here if we were under the cap is crazy. Superstar FAs almost always re-sign with their current teams because there's so much more money if they do that. You'd have more of a chance of pulling off a sign and trade (where they can get the extra money from their original team, which is technically signing them) and Marbury plus other assets that Isiah will be accumulating could get other teams to listen. (It would still be hard to get someone like Lebron, though, who I can't imagine wanting to leave his home state.)
gunsnewing
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4/4/2005  5:56 PM
lebron + New York = big money for lebron and the knicks!!
nyballer
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4/4/2005  6:36 PM
Can't blame Herb for trying to win though...he knows he won't be back next year, so what's the point in him tanking? So the next big name coach gets a higher draft pick and subsequently makes him look like that much worse of a coach? Granted, Herb's not winning a lot now but if he were to intentionally tank the season he wouldn't get another coaching job period. this is his time to show what he can do, you can't ask an essentially interim coach to tank the season, even if that's what the fans want.
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fishmike
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4/4/2005  7:13 PM
Posted by tomverve:

Sorry, disagree (although I was almost persuaded by the caps). What did that team have? The big pieces were Houston, Sprewell, Camby, and the #7 pick. Layden pissed away the latter two for nothing, leaving us essentially with just Houston and Sprewell. We traded Sprewell for KVH who begat TT; a lineage of more or less lateral moves. That leaves Houston, who's since become a McDyess in his own right.

Let's take stock. Of the major assets of that team, what remains? TT, via Sprewell. Everything else is gone. Any wonder why we're bad right now? Good teams keep chains of assets going over time, converting them as needed. Look at what Ernie did; instead of lose Oak and Starks to the ravanges of time, he turned them into Spree and Camby. Layden cut that process short, meaning that we're basically starting from (expensive) scratch.

Fortunately, Isiah managed to salvage McDyess by turning him into Marbury. So, what is it now... Marbury, Crawford, TT, KT, Sweets, Ariza, and a #6-9 instead of Houston, KVH, KT, and Frank Williams? As long as we don't lose two of our better assets for nothing, we're guaranteed to be in better shape this summer than 2 summers ago.
I think you misunderstood me... Of course Layden when on to fubar that situation. Whats sad is that when we had Houston, Spree, Camby and the #7 we were in a reasonable situtation to start building the team back. My point was just I would rather be in that spot then the one we are in now.

Its hard for me to be high on any of these players as having any solid value because they cant win... ever.

All these moves, all these trades and we are back to square one, hoping and praying that we win the lottery and get a player to save the franchise.

nyballer: you can ask Herb to play the kids and he's off the hook. Instead Isiah will let him kick and scream while the roster he assembled chokes loss after loss and then dump Herb like thats the problem.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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4/4/2005  7:20 PM
nyballer: you can ask Herb to play the kids and he's off the hook.
Not one of your brighter comments (no offense). Herb is not simply concerned with what Isiah thinks. He knows that if he wants a future coaching job on *any* team, he needs to get wins now on the Knicks.
Bonn1997
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4/4/2005  7:22 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

lebron + New York = big money for lebron and the knicks!!
Lebron will make huge endorsement money anywhere. If he really wants to come to NY (which is quiet unlikely), he'll force the Cavs to either do a sign and trade or lose him for nothing. I'd predict that whether we have all the cap room in the world or no cap room, he'll stay in his home state.
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question... does anyone here doubt we are trying to win?
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