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Isiah keeps missing the boat
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MS
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3/23/2005  10:05 AM
We have seen two nice moves for the price of nothing while isiah stands their and brings in players like Mo Taylor, or Jamaal Crawford for big money, players that aren't going to help you win....

Missed oppurtunity: Atlanta just gives people away, Wallace last year and Walker this year

Huge Missed Oppurtunity: Orlando has a terrible GM he gave away Drew Good and Varejo who is going to be a high energy game changer for years

Back-up Point: Carlos Arroyo for a second round pick and Elden Cambell

Jon Barry, David Wesley, Jim Jackson, all would have been cheap upgrades, but we never have any assets left

Instead of trading just to trade he needs to use his assets better, and stop giving them away and taking back low impact players....
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djsunyc
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3/23/2005  10:15 AM
Posted by MS:

We have seen two nice moves for the price of nothing while isiah stands their and brings in players like Mo Taylor, or Jamaal Crawford for big money, players that aren't going to help you win....

Missed oppurtunity: Atlanta just gives people away, Wallace last year and Walker this year

Huge Missed Oppurtunity: Orlando has a terrible GM he gave away Drew Good and Varejo who is going to be a high energy game changer for years

Back-up Point: Carlos Arroyo for a second round pick and Elden Cambell

Jon Barry, David Wesley, Jim Jackson, all would have been cheap upgrades, but we never have any assets left

Instead of trading just to trade he needs to use his assets better, and stop giving them away and taking back low impact players....

wallace was almost a knick last year until boston intervened - so he almost had marbury AND sheed last season but i guess almost is not good enough.

secondly, i'm glad he didn't go after arroyo b/c he's on the books for 4 years at $4mil/year. this draft is loaded with PG's so we can get one cheaper.

thirdly, i'm not sure if orlando wanted kurt or not but that was the only comparable player we could've shipped like battie and i think kurt has more years - the extension has hurt his value.

walker was not an option b/c we used all our expiring deals in the crawford trade.

you're right, there were people available but am i upset we didn't get barry, wesley, jim jackson? not at all plus we didn't have matching salaries that expired this year to get them. this season was lost in january. any moves made after that would probably not result in anything that positive unless #1's were coming back.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 03/23/2005 10:15:48]
knicks1248
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3/23/2005  10:16 AM
Mo taylor for Vin baker and moochie norris.. how many points did they combine for..3

Nazy for Rose, the only thing nazy has on rose is height,other then that he's( rose) a better defender, & shooter by far.

Contracts...please IT got rid of eisley and spoon 2 of the most unattractive contracts in the history of the game.
ES
Andrew
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3/23/2005  10:35 AM
Arryo was aquired for Elden Campbell and a future first-round pick.
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MS
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3/23/2005  10:38 AM
taking pack 25 million in hardaway, and spoon is better than mo taylor by the way who essentially is who he was traded for and mo is on the book two years past spoon

And your glad he didn't go after arroyo because he has a 4 year 16 million dollar deal, Taylor get paid 8, Rose 6, JYD 6, so thats cheap to get a great back-up that can play with Marbury
crzymdups
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3/23/2005  10:39 AM
I don't think you can say Isiah "missed the boat" in all those cases. For instance, Cleveland gave up Tony Battie, a player a lot of teams like who is big and can block shots for Gooden and Varejao. Remember, every team is making offers. Sometimes a team will just like a certain team's offer more than others.

The fact that our players are repeatedly killed in the national media probably doesn't help matters.
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crzymdups
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3/23/2005  10:59 AM
to me, where Isiah has missed the boat, more than trades where you can't control what other teams are doing, is signing a big man to the MLE. he missed Joel Pryzbila (sp) and Chris Andersen, both of whom signed to less than Vin Baker. Actually, both of whom signed for less than what we had LEFT of the MLE after signing Baker. This team needs size. Isiah needs to find a cheap, young guy with some size and rebounding and blocking ability. They're out there.

I don't blame him for the missed trades, but sometimes it's not getting a Dampier, it's about getting a Joel or a Chris.
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rvhoss
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3/23/2005  11:20 AM
Wasn't zeke held hostage by Crawford's manager and we had to resign vin to the mle? Also, Zeke is being black balled...when we tried to get vince carter, they wanted Crawford OR Marbs...did the Nets give up anybody of that calibar?

And I remember atlanta wanting more from the knicks than the celtics gave up...btw...didn't they trade gary payton to the hawks...why is he still on the celts?

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simrud
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3/23/2005  11:44 AM
IT is not liked around the league at all, so people don't want to deal with him, they would rather do worse trades then have to put up with his crap.

It's still better then Layden who was used as a doorman by the rest of the GM's in the league, but it still sucks.

A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
rvhoss
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3/23/2005  11:55 AM
so...what happens if we win tonight?
I don't think it helps the standings, but, makes me hopeful for next year.
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diderotn
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3/23/2005  12:00 PM
You are very right about that, but Isiah is doing his best...He brought in JB so far...I think that from this point on, he needs to stand pat....Trade Kurt Thomas if he is wanted by other teams, but use the draft as our source to improve our team...Who knows, we may find a Wayde, Michael Redd, Boozer, out there....instead of paying for overpaid players....Isiah learned, he will do the necessary for this Knicks team...Why blaming him, while Layden crippled our squad for the next 2 years...???

I don't blame him for the missed trades, but sometimes it's not getting a Dampier, it's about getting a Joel or a Chris.
The true Knickabocker..........
nyk4ever
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3/23/2005  12:09 PM
Just curious where you know this from. I've never seen any reports that say that Isiah isn't liked around the league. Just becuase you have a perception of him, does not mean its true.
Posted by simrud:

IT is not liked around the league at all, so people don't want to deal with him, they would rather do worse trades then have to put up with his crap.

It's still better then Layden who was used as a doorman by the rest of the GM's in the league, but it still sucks.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
diderotn
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3/23/2005  12:16 PM
Comeon dude! the whole world knows that Isiah will never be offered the best of deals around this league, especially with all of the ex-Celtics we have running the show as GMs, and the type of salaries that we have on our payroll...Anyone with Celtics' roots will not deal with Isiah fairly...That is why it is imperative for Isiah to breed players from within....

Posted by nyk4ever:

Just curious where you know this from. I've never seen any reports that say that Isiah isn't liked around the league. Just becuase you have a perception of him, does not mean its true.
Posted by simrud:

IT is not liked around the league at all, so people don't want to deal with him, they would rather do worse trades then have to put up with his crap.

It's still better then Layden who was used as a doorman by the rest of the GM's in the league, but it still sucks.
The true Knickabocker..........
MS
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3/23/2005  12:18 PM
I think there are a lot of people that don't like Isiah around the league, and I'm sure their is a certain level of resentment towards someone who is unproven and gets one of the best jobs in the league....

He is unprofessional, he doesn't handle people respectfully, he often says one thing and does another, he makes these statements about rebuilding and then goes back on his word.....Isiah has been here a year and a half and we might have our 4th different coach, because he doesn't have a plan he just keeps trying to fix the leak........

Nearly every deal he makes he gets taken to the cleaners, he should have never given away all the assets and picks in the Marbury deal

He had to resign Vin Baker

He ended up giving Crawford a ton of money while not getting rid of one player he set out too...
nyk4ever
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3/23/2005  12:18 PM
Now that, that's out of the way. I think Isiah has done a C+ job so far.

He made Spoon, Eisley and Shandon Anderson all disappear.
He acquired Stephon Marbury, Jamal Crawford, Malik Rose, Tim Thomas. Made an excellent draft pick in Trevor Ariza
Has stockpiled a few 1st round draft picks.

In my estimation he has made one questional move by acquiring Mo Taylor but I don't really see it as a big deal because he gave up 2 players that were nowhere near contributing for this team.

You guys are talking about how he missed the boat on Joel Pryzbilla? Geez he is one of the biggest busts ever in the first round and had done absolutely NOTHING in his first four seasons of his career. He's putting up some DECENT at best stats right now for the Blazers who are pathetic so I don't want to hear about that. Jimmy Jackson and Jon Barry are good role players on a championship calibur team, Im glad neither one of them are on the Knicks because right now they'd be a waste. All in all Isiah has been heading the Knicks for a little under 1.5 years and the good moves he has made far outnumber the bad, atleast in my opinion.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
nyk4ever
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3/23/2005  12:22 PM
You've to be kidding me if you think that Danny Ainge or ANY GM in the NBA for that matter would not accept a deal from Isiah Thomas just because they don't like him. The NBA is a buisness and in buisness alot of times you deal with people you don't like for whatever reason. Jerry Krause was one of the most hated people in basketball yet, he still made trades and when his team had the best offered, it was taken by the other team. This isn't kindergarten, this is a buisness.
Posted by diderotn:

Comeon dude! the whole world knows that Isiah will never be offered the best of deals around this league, especially with all of the ex-Celtics we have running the show as GMs, and the type of salaries that we have on our payroll...Anyone with Celtics' roots will not deal with Isiah fairly...That is why it is imperative for Isiah to breed players from within....

Posted by nyk4ever:

Just curious where you know this from. I've never seen any reports that say that Isiah isn't liked around the league. Just becuase you have a perception of him, does not mean its true.
Posted by simrud:

IT is not liked around the league at all, so people don't want to deal with him, they would rather do worse trades then have to put up with his crap.



It's still better then Layden who was used as a doorman by the rest of the GM's in the league, but it still sucks.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 03/23/2005 12:23:46]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
diderotn
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3/23/2005  12:26 PM
Dude! You failed to read the statement that I have in quotation marks..Here is a question for you, what did the Nets offered the Raptors for Vince? What did Atlanta received from the Celts for Toine?


Comeon dude! the whole world knows that Isiah will never be offered the best of deals around this league, especially with all of the ex-Celtics we have running the show as GMs, "and the type of salaries that we have on our payroll."



[quote]
Posted by nyk4ever:

You've to be kidding me if you think that Danny Ainge or ANY GM in the NBA for that matter would not accept a deal from Isiah Thomas just because they don't like him. The NBA is a buisness and in buisness alot of times you deal with people you don't like for whatever reason. Jerry Krause was one of the most hated people in basketball yet, he still made trades and when his team had the best offered, it was taken by the other team. This isn't kindergarten, this is a buisness.

[quote]Posted by diderotn:

Comeon dude! the whole world knows that Isiah will never be offered the best of deals around this league, especially with all of the ex-Celtics we have running the show as GMs, and the type of salaries that we have on our payroll...Anyone with Celtics' roots will not deal with Isiah fairly...That is why it is imperative for Isiah to breed players from within....


The true Knickabocker..........
crzymdups
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3/23/2005  12:55 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

Wasn't zeke held hostage by Crawford's manager and we had to resign vin to the mle? Also, Zeke is being black balled...when we tried to get vince carter, they wanted Crawford OR Marbs...did the Nets give up anybody of that calibar?

And I remember atlanta wanting more from the knicks than the celtics gave up...btw...didn't they trade gary payton to the hawks...why is he still on the celts?

Dude, Payton was an expiring contract. Atlanta did that trade to dump an unhappy player and get a pick. They took back less money and got a pick. IT was win win.

The Raptors got two mid first round picks. We're not talking the 29th pick, we're talking two picks in the teens where they'll be able to get two of the guys we've been talking about for the past two months. Can they add Warrick and Eric Williams plus their own lotto pick? That's a quick rebuild. The only reason Toronto even CONSIDERED trading Vince to New York was because we were going to take back Jalen's $55 million contract as well and they would've saved over $70 MILLION!!!!!
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crzymdups
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3/23/2005  1:28 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

You've to be kidding me if you think that Danny Ainge or ANY GM in the NBA for that matter would not accept a deal from Isiah Thomas just because they don't like him. The NBA is a buisness and in buisness alot of times you deal with people you don't like for whatever reason. Jerry Krause was one of the most hated people in basketball yet, he still made trades and when his team had the best offered, it was taken by the other team. This isn't kindergarten, this is a buisness.

perhaps explaining why he always got HOUSED in trades?

Brad Miller and Artest for Jalen?

Elton Brand for Tyson's chicken?
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diderotn
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3/23/2005  1:38 PM
With due time, Isiah will be an excellent GM...He will need a coach that he can trust to give him valuable input on who to bring in or who best fit his system...The problem is in the past, Lenny was such a yes sort of coach, he failed to concentrate in the areas that were the most important...As far as I am concerned, we really didn't need to do the trade with Chicago...We sent them a big man whom we are dearly missing in the paint....Yes, I like the fact that we got JYD with that trade, but Crawf is the starter....Frankly, Isiah would have been better off dealing with the Wiz instead...because they had players that wanted to get rid off...They could have perhaps traded Hughes and Haywood if those two were pursued heavily, because their main priority at the time was to develop Kwame...
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