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This just doesn't make much sense
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knicks1248
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3/5/2005  12:32 AM
Who's telling steph to walk the ball up damn near every single time we get a rebound or were just taking the ball out. This half court sht is absolutely hilarious. Were the shortest team probably in the history of the game & Steph walks the ball up like he's going to dump it in the post to tim Duncun/ewing/shaq/hakeem.

This idiot doesn't relize we have no post up threat, we have no height advantage, and we dont have allan behind the arc.
How idiotic is it to play the game methodical as if this squad is balance enough to follow X & Os.

I know this is no rude awaking to many of us, but steph can't not( and will not) have much success in NY without a healthy allan and serious threat in the post. He's just not a runner, and is not that gifted in the open court. My bet is he's just losing it slowly. I mean he ran much more with the suns,nets and wolves, but since he's been with the knicks, he's no better then charlie ward, and cris childs.

That fact that he can break his man down and blow by any and every one is testament to his big numbers for a point guard. If he was running he's more likely to feed some body for a lay up or a open 3.
but since he's come aboard, 67% of the playbook is pick and roll, pick and roll. This halh court crap that makes little to no sense at all.
ES
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gunsnewing
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3/5/2005  12:36 AM
I hate Stephon Marbury. Trade him!
matt
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3/5/2005  12:45 AM
I don't hate Stephon Marbury. Get some decent players around him, and then you can decide whether or not you hate him. Not to knock Crawford, but he should not be the second best option on a team right now.
Rich
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3/5/2005  12:45 AM
I don't hate him, but it's going to be a couple of years before the Knicks are more than a borderline playoff team, at which time Marbury will be > 30. I would definitely trade him.
gunsnewing
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3/5/2005  12:50 AM
he cant play defense and he doesn't push the ball up the way a PG which is why he doesn't make guys better unlike kidd and nash
nyk4ever
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3/5/2005  1:24 AM
Posted by gunsnewing:

he cant play defense and he doesn't push the ball up the way a PG which is why he doesn't make guys better unlike kidd and nash

Please. The fact that you are dissing Marbury is ridiculous. When the second and third best players on your team are Jamal Crawford and Kurt Thomas then you dont have a right to be dissing Marbury. Yeah I know he left Garnett but big deal everyone makes mistakes when they are young and this is no different. Marbury is playing "All Alone" right now.
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gunsnewing
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3/5/2005  1:36 AM
im just questioning if holding on to a guy who's signed through 2009 at $20mil per year when he is in his 30s is such a great idea. A guy with so many holes in his game. I would love to trade him and take advantage of this PG heavy draft but He will never be traded.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 03/05/2005 13:24:36]
simrud
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3/5/2005  8:49 AM
I'm glady you finally see the truth guns.

Marbury is a joke. He might be the most overrated player in a while.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
djsunyc
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3/5/2005  9:29 AM
one question, who on this knicks team can run the court and fill the lane? do we have ANY big man that can do that? the only players athletically capable of doing it are tim, ariza, and craw. tim is mr. invisible (4 games DO NOT define a season). ariza is young and raw as hell. as long as penny's here, ariza's minutes will be limited. and then you have crawford who's still learning the game and who settles for that jumper more often than not.

did you not see marbury make two wide open passes to penny and sweets on the break only to see them BLOW layups. he doesn't have the personnel to run.

marbury is flawed but he's really good. he's not jordan, kobe, or lebron...but he's not a joke either.

oh, btw, fastbreaks are generated after MISSED shots. i forgot, did this team suddenly start playing defense?

i don't buy the run and gun argument when it comes to marbury with this knicks team.
EnySpree
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3/5/2005  9:42 AM
I love Steph to death but I dunno if he is the right point guard for the Knicks. Some nights he is unstoppable on offense others he is just regular. Stephs whole game is driving to the basket or pick and rolls or kick outs.

Just as an example....Kirk Hinrich is constantly dribbling and working the ball from the three point line to the foul line causing alot of action out on the floor. Steph just kind of hangs out at the three point line till he can get a lane on the drive. Most of Marbs assists are on kick outs. I have yet to see Marbs put together a run where he is picking apart the defense like Nash, Kidd, or Baron Davis does for that matter.

Marbs has his games where he plays well but people tend to remember the times where Marbs doesn't score and he is play making.

Marbs needs to understand that he can score at will on anybody. His primary objective has to be getting guys involved. This doesn't mean just dumping it to Timmy, Sweets, Taylor, etc....or doing the pick and roll all day with KT. He has to work the defense and give his big men dunks and his perimeter guys shots in motion rather than spotting up all the time. At the same time he has to get himself off and take shots when they present themselves.

Pushing the ball up would help. Steph is crazy fast when he wants to be but usually if Marbs is flying up the court he is trying to score. He is definately not a good decision maker on the break.

Even after saying all that....I wish Steph had some real talent around him for once. To his defense he has never really had a good team around him.

[Edited by - enyspree on 03/05/2005 09:44:19]
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djsunyc
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3/5/2005  9:56 AM
Posted by EnySpree:

Marbs needs to understand that he can score at will on anybody. His primary objective has to be getting guys involved. This doesn't mean just dumping it to Timmy, Sweets, Taylor, etc....or doing the pick and roll all day with KT. He has to work the defense and give his big men dunks and his perimeter guys shots in motion rather than spotting up all the time. At the same time he has to get himself off and take shots when they present themselves

this is where you lose me? does he not set-up kurt, tim, and penny with WIDE OPEN 3's and midrange jumpers? everytime i see the shoot a jumper, they look pretty wide open to me. which big man can he get the ball to that can dunk like you're suggesting?

it's a domino effect. no defense equals less fast breaks equals more half court. combine that with undersized players with mediocre jumpers, no slashing ability, and non-aggressive attitudes, and you get rubber bullets to shoot at steph.

i wish they would move steph to SG full time so everybody that questions his PG ability can finally stop and he can do what he does best and that's score.
Pharzeone
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3/5/2005  9:58 AM
I guess we are giving Herb a pass. Watching Marbury play with the Timberwolves, I know he pushed the ball, I saw him do it with Suns, but I guess it is his fault as a Knick.
Now if a player follows what his coach says it is his fault. Guns, you sound crazy. Herb Williams, has Crawford walking the ball up. And please tell me, how this is a run and gun team. The only two players on this team that can run besides the guards are TT and Ariza. Sweets, TT take their time getting up court.
Marbury and Crawford are listening to Herb Williams, who is coaching a half court system like his mentor, Van Gundy. He lacks the superior post player (Sweetney's height has been exposed as a problem, unless he learns how to past out of a double team).
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
MaTT4281
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3/5/2005  10:41 AM
I don't have much of a problem with Stephon. I've just come to accept the fact that he can't carry a team. He is not a franchise player, although he is payed like one.
I'll agree that he is overrated, but I don't buy into the comments of him being a cancer, and that we will NEVER win anything with him on the team. We've just got to stock up the roster with more talents and reduce Marbury's role.
I don't think we should actively be looking to dump him, but in no way is he untradeable. I only wish that we could swing him for a Tony Parker type, but thats a dream and a half.
Pharzeone
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3/5/2005  10:57 AM
Posted by MaTT4281:

I don't have much of a problem with Stephon. I've just come to accept the fact that he can't carry a team. He is not a franchise player, although he is payed like one.
I'll agree that he is overrated, but I don't buy into the comments of him being a cancer, and that we will NEVER win anything with him on the team. We've just got to stock up the roster with more talents and reduce Marbury's role.
I don't think we should actively be looking to dump him, but in no way is he untradeable. I only wish that we could swing him for a Tony Parker type, but thats a dream and a half.
Please explain how that makes any sense unless you get Duncan too. That would be perfect, an out of control pg, who is an inconsisten scorer with no other true scorers on the team and no legit big man. There is no PG in the history of the NBA would be able to carry this team. No consistent shooter in the line up (the only on the team is scare to play not at 100%), the SF is consistent, the PF is undersized and doesn't know how to pass out of the double-team, the center is undersize and takes jumpers. No only explosive player on the team is an underage rookie. The bench is undersized. LOL, the SF is the tallest person on the team besides Bruno (enough said).
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
MaTT4281
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3/5/2005  11:08 AM
Posted by Pharzeone:

Please explain how that makes any sense unless you get Duncan too. That would be perfect, an out of control pg, who is an inconsisten scorer with no other true scorers on the team and no legit big man. There is no PG in the history of the NBA would be able to carry this team. No consistent shooter in the line up (the only on the team is scare to play not at 100%), the SF is consistent, the PF is undersized and doesn't know how to pass out of the double-team, the center is undersize and takes jumpers. No only explosive player on the team is an underage rookie. The bench is undersized. LOL, the SF is the tallest person on the team besides Bruno (enough said).
I wasn't looking for a PG to carry the team. I like Tony Parker in a limited role. He's quick and could hopefully push the ball upcourt quick, trying to get easy baskets for the likes of TT and Crawford. He's also a better defender than Marbury, but that still not saying much. Parker's only 23 and will be getting better, but like I just said, I wasn't looking for him to carry the team.
Knicksfan
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3/5/2005  12:10 PM
He was sick! You guys are human too, right? Wen you get sick you probably aren't as efficient at work as you normally are, right? He was feeling sick and still had a nice game. Give him some breathing room. He is a good player and with the right cast you would probably call him great because he would be winning a ton of games for us.
Knicks_Fan
Knicksfan
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3/5/2005  12:20 PM
Im starting to doubt that Isiah can really transform this team into a contender like the one he dreams. He traded for Marbury to make him the leader of the group so your guess would be that the Knicks would be contenders in the Marbury era, and with what has happened lately and the deals he has made, I doubt whether he can achieve that. This team is so flawed and no one is willing to help the Knicks without throwing us more terrible contracts, hurting us. Isiah made two trades that are supposedly going to make us a younger team next season, bus isn't the plan winning with Marbury? He isn't getting any younger and if Isiah does draft some nice talent, they will not be close to their prime to help Stephon win. And deals like Mo Taylor are not even close to making us contenders again. So, what does the future holds for the Knicks? I have no idea. I thought Isiah was on the right track when he got Tim, Nazr and Crawford. But then this disastrous season killed any hope. And Isiah trading Nazr, supposedly the key to the Van Horn deal, just leaves me thinking that he has no plan and no idea what he wants to do with NY. Its painful to be a Knicks fan...
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knicks1248
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3/5/2005  1:11 PM
See a lot of the blame goes to IT, lenny and now herb, in that exact order. I'm not knocking Marbs, because I see him look over at the coach for almost every damn play.

I would not trade steph under any circumstances, because good pg's are always hard to get. We went something like 12 years with out a young solid pg at both ends of the floor, and it's the primary reason ewing never got a lagitimate chance at a ring.

Other then steph everybody on this team should be part of a trade to pick up a star post player now.... IMO It's alright to have a half court game, as long as you have some kind of fast break unit in your line up ( see 99 knicks that went to the championship). That team had a half court starting line up, with lj, ewing, Allan and ward, as the core unit, then you you have spree, camby, childs an kt as a second fast break ( get back in the game) unit.
You don't have to be a top 10 defensive unit to run and put up points. I agree we don't have much of a perimeter team, and were' not that athletic. But there has been times when we surely could of taking advantage of the opposition if we hurried the ball up court, becuase the ( present NBA) has some of the worst defenders in the world, especially in transition.


IT is simply piling up trade bait, with all the picks and mediocre players he's getting. It's hard to believe he made that trade in response to making a solid run at a playoff birth. The only thing you can pray for at this point is CHEMISTRY.
Thats were herb comes in, and he does a poor poor job at evaluating the situation and making the appropriate substitution.

Why is rose not starting or recieving the bulk of minuts at PF, sweetny is just too inexperince to start,he's more effective ( for now) coming of the friggen bench.
ES
diderotn
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3/5/2005  1:20 PM
Do you realize that last night the only athletic player that Isiah had on the court was Ariza? You can only speed up the game when you are confident that the guys around you will run or trail the play as they are supposed to. With the lineup that he had, if he was to push the ball, he would have ended up with TO. Have you paid attention to Kurt, Penny, and Sweetney in the fast brake?????


Posted by knicks1248:

Who's telling steph to walk the ball up damn near every single time we get a rebound or were just taking the ball out. This half court sht is absolutely hilarious. Were the shortest team probably in the history of the game & Steph walks the ball up like he's going to dump it in the post to tim Duncun/ewing/shaq/hakeem.

This idiot doesn't relize we have no post up threat, we have no height advantage, and we dont have allan behind the arc.
How idiotic is it to play the game methodical as if this squad is balance enough to follow X & Os.

I know this is no rude awaking to many of us, but steph can't not( and will not) have much success in NY without a healthy allan and serious threat in the post. He's just not a runner, and is not that gifted in the open court. My bet is he's just losing it slowly. I mean he ran much more with the suns,nets and wolves, but since he's been with the knicks, he's no better then charlie ward, and cris childs.

That fact that he can break his man down and blow by any and every one is testament to his big numbers for a point guard. If he was running he's more likely to feed some body for a lay up or a open 3.
but since he's come aboard, 67% of the playbook is pick and roll, pick and roll. This halh court crap that makes little to no sense at all.
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knicks1248
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3/5/2005  2:03 PM
Why would you be running with sweetny kt and penny in the line up, Thats not a fastbreak unit. Now if you make certain adjustments, and have a lineup of Sm, JC, ariza, TT, and KT/Rose, you have some flexibility.
Secondly I'm not expecting us to be the suns, but we never ever take advantage and run the ball, even when we have the defense off guard.
Thats not herbs fault entirely, marbury has to run bottom line.

If steph was with the suns this year even with the signing of Q, he would still walk the ball up, and break his man down from the top of the arch.
Herb was absolutely right in trying to get steph to play the off guard position, but thats something you have to instilled in training camp, because JC despite his quickness, and speed, is more likely to run down the court and shoot a jumper. Q and jc have the same style in the open court, there jump shooters first and for most..
Marbury is the one of the best finishers in league history why not play him at the 2, I guaranty would they run more.
ES
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