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Tim Thomas & H20 are the X factors
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Killa4luv
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1/22/2005  12:22 PM
We have to remember that TT & H20 are the X factors. No one expected much from Nazr or Ariza and they have exceeded our expectations. JC, Steph, and KT have given us pretty much what we expected from them. Sweets has continued to develop and impress many. TT & H20 haven't. No one foresaw TT having a nightmare of a season or H20 barely being able to run. And no one really realized what the loss of both of them would mean to us. Had they been playing like they did last year, we would be an elite eastern conference team.

They both could open up alot of things for us with their offensive games. We have really missed what they can bring to the game. H20 could open the floor with his shooting and would certainly get his fair share of open shots. TT could post up the mainly smaller and weaker small fowards. These guys are having career lows this season and their poor and inconsistant play have costed us games and millions of dollars.

It is a shame that Tim hasn't been able to get his mind right (after dealing with such tragedy) and H20 hasn't been able to get his Knees right after surgery and months of rehab. More than Lenny, KT or any other thing you wanna blame our season on, these guys could have been giving us a combined 35 ppg. They are the real difference. When you think about how good this team could have been with them both just playing decent, its enought to make you cry.
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Bonn1997
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1/22/2005  12:34 PM
It's time to expect Houston to never contribute again (except maybe an occasional decent game).
gunsnewing
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1/22/2005  12:38 PM
as bad a year as TT's had he's never been that good a player so its not much of a drop off. His career averages are 14pts/4rebs/43%...this year its 10pts/3rebs/40%

$3% for a 6'10'' guy is terrible. it shows that he never was able to finish inside and his game always consisted of hanging around the perimeter.

And as far as Houston goes, anyone could've seen this coming after he refused to fix his knees. I predicted that he would last 15games, he lasted for 20
Silverfuel
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1/22/2005  1:07 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

And as far as Houston goes, anyone could've seen this coming after he refused to fix his knees. I predicted that he would last 15games, he lasted for 20
I prediceted 25 in the off season and I might still be right. He might still come back to give us his "lethal" jumpshooting at 44%!!!
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
gunsnewing
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1/22/2005  1:12 PM
lol boy that jumpshot sure is deadly isn't it....it's been causing havok in the league for 12years.

A jumpshooter who can do other things with the ball averages closer to 50% for their careers, but someone who can only jumpshoot averages closer to 40%
Silverfuel
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1/22/2005  2:06 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

lol boy that jumpshot sure is deadly isn't it....it's been causing havok in the league for 12years.

A jumpshooter who can do other things with the ball averages closer to 50% for their careers, but someone who can only jumpshoot averages closer to 40%
How dare you knock him now that he is injured. Dont you remember what he did when he was healthy!! He averaged 20 pts for 2 years and scored 50 points, TWICE! So what if our team missed the team missed the playoffs only those 2 years out of the last 20 when he was the best player? He has such a sweet jump shot and, and he played injured!
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OldFan
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1/22/2005  3:17 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

lol boy that jumpshot sure is deadly isn't it....it's been causing havok in the league for 12years.

A jumpshooter who can do other things with the ball averages closer to 50% for their careers, but someone who can only jumpshoot averages closer to 40%

Jump shooters that average near 50% are extemely rare. Reggie Miller had a great career averaging 45% (houston is 44.4%).

Houston has had a good career. No he should not be the best player on your team. But as far as I can see his big sin to most posters is having the nerve to accept the money the Knicks gave him.
gunsnewing
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1/22/2005  3:24 PM
Wally, Ray Allen, Mike Miller, Reggie Miller, Manu, Darius Miles, ricky davis and even hersey hawkins averge at least 46% some of those guys average 48% for their career. Houston averaged 48% once. Yet he was given 100million based on a "sweet jumpshot" He does have a very sweet jumpshot but they should've taken his career FG% into consideration. They gave him 100mil after he had his one and only 48% shooting season. Coincidently that was the one season where he actually drove the ball,dished 3assits, grabbed 3rebs and played defense. After getting the money he became a completely one dimensional jumpshooter.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 01/22/2005 15:28:52]
Silverfuel
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1/22/2005  3:26 PM
Posted by OldFan:

Jump shooters that average near 50% are extemely rare. Reggie Miller had a great career averaging 45% (houston is 44.4%).
Reggie Miller did a lot of things better than Houston. Most obvious was running without the ball and also getting open for last second shots.
But as far as I can see his big sin to most posters is having the nerve to accept the money the Knicks gave him.
His FG% was 48% averaging 20pts in his contract year. He also palyed a lot better defense and drove to the hoop a LOT more. That was in his contract year.

Then, he signed the max-contract and turned into JUST a jump shooter and his FG% dropped ot 45% and has been around 43-44% ever since. Seems to me like he stopped doing a lot of things that got his that contract.
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gunsnewing
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1/22/2005  3:32 PM
we said the exact same things Silver lol

I admit that I was fooled into believing that Allan Houston was ever a top player in this league too until me and Silver actually did some research and realized that Reggie Miller is not the only one who had a better career than Houston but so did Hersey Hawkins if you look up his career #'s. But Allan Houston is the one who got $100million and led the Knicks to two 30win seasons. and other great jumpshooters like Wally and Ray Allen have better FG% for their careers.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 01/22/2005 15:34:29]
Silverfuel
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1/22/2005  3:36 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

But Allan Houston is the one who got $100million
forget the contract. He is not even that great a jump shooter as most people think. Jeff Hornacek was a great jump shooter. Houston is a good jump shooter. 1-dimensional I might add.
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gunsnewing
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1/22/2005  3:39 PM
i forgot hornacek. H20 has a sweet jumpshoot. it looks really "cool" and smooth but it's not nearly as consist as the other great shooters like miller, hornacek and ray allen
franco12
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1/22/2005  3:43 PM
When the refs allow opponents to bully and grab Houston, he can't do much- and there were a ton of games where players did that to him- the refs should have blown their whistles.

But, when he was on, he was exceeding good- not worth the money though.

Coming into the season, I know I was wondering whether he would contribute anything.

That TT has been down- Yes- that is a definite factor that has contributed to the teams losses.
Nalod
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1/22/2005  3:46 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:

We have to remember that TT & H20 are the X factors. No one expected much from Nazr or Ariza and they have exceeded our expectations. JC, Steph, and KT have given us pretty much what we expected from them. Sweets has continued to develop and impress many. TT & H20 haven't. No one foresaw TT having a nightmare of a season or H20 barely being able to run. And no one really realized what the loss of both of them would mean to us. Had they been playing like they did last year, we would be an elite eastern conference team.

They both could open up alot of things for us with their offensive games. We have really missed what they can bring to the game. H20 could open the floor with his shooting and would certainly get his fair share of open shots. TT could post up the mainly smaller and weaker small fowards. These guys are having career lows this season and their poor and inconsistant play have costed us games and millions of dollars.

It is a shame that Tim hasn't been able to get his mind right (after dealing with such tragedy) and H20 hasn't been able to get his Knees right after surgery and months of rehab. More than Lenny, KT or any other thing you wanna blame our season on, these guys could have been giving us a combined 35 ppg. They are the real difference. When you think about how good this team could have been with them both just playing decent, its enought to make you cry.

Jamal was bought in as insurance and to be the future. If allan does not ever play again, Jamal was a big factor, and he does not fit in quite yet. Reezys and JYD good play to me cancel out TT's decline. Good teams have abilty to adapt to adversity.

Allan if he can return would be a huge plus, but we have moved on without him. My my how we forgoe our affections for our players and damm them when they are hurt. Shameful!
gunsnewing
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1/22/2005  3:47 PM
you can't blame the refs for his career 44% shooting! lol
Travla
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1/22/2005  3:55 PM
I'm not shooting down H20 but he should've averaged about 25 or more a game for a few years but he never took his game past jumpshooting. The players that averaged 25 to 28 points a game (Iverson, Kobe, Vinsanity, Amare or Paul Pierce) have a combination of jumpshots and taking it to the rack. I don't blame him for the 100 mil contract, he could've been signed for about 70 mil but the Knicks management over-reacted. Houston had the ability to be among the greats but he never changed his game. Two of the immediate names that I can think of was Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan who both came into the league with no outside games and they took it upon themselves to improve that aspect. Just like KT, who's been a 6'10 jumpshooter all of his carrer, to become better or great, you have to add additional abilities to your game, you have to want it.
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Killa4luv
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1/22/2005  5:51 PM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by Killa4luv:

We have to remember that TT & H20 are the X factors. No one expected much from Nazr or Ariza and they have exceeded our expectations. JC, Steph, and KT have given us pretty much what we expected from them. Sweets has continued to develop and impress many. TT & H20 haven't. No one foresaw TT having a nightmare of a season or H20 barely being able to run. And no one really realized what the loss of both of them would mean to us. Had they been playing like they did last year, we would be an elite eastern conference team.

They both could open up alot of things for us with their offensive games. We have really missed what they can bring to the game. H20 could open the floor with his shooting and would certainly get his fair share of open shots. TT could post up the mainly smaller and weaker small fowards. These guys are having career lows this season and their poor and inconsistant play have costed us games and millions of dollars.

It is a shame that Tim hasn't been able to get his mind right (after dealing with such tragedy) and H20 hasn't been able to get his Knees right after surgery and months of rehab. More than Lenny, KT or any other thing you wanna blame our season on, these guys could have been giving us a combined 35 ppg. They are the real difference. When you think about how good this team could have been with them both just playing decent, its enought to make you cry.

Jamal was bought in as insurance and to be the future. If allan does not ever play again, Jamal was a big factor, and he does not fit in quite yet. Reezys and JYD good play to me cancel out TT's decline. Good teams have abilty to adapt to adversity.

Allan if he can return would be a huge plus, but we have moved on without him. My my how we forgoe our affections for our players and damm them when they are hurt. Shameful!
I also think it is shameful. I was consistantly one of H20's biggest supporters. Blame the administration for pushing a 100 million dollar contract in his face. I liked Allan and I always thought he was the better offensive player than spreewell.

His 20 ppg seasons aren't why we tanked. He was the best player on some seriously flawed teams. We had no athleticism from our 'bigs' if you can call them that and not even a quality pg to run the offense. Spree and Allan as our two scorers was just a bad match. No one even discussed how spree was only bringing 15-16 ppg while Allan gave 20+. Allan was a flawed player on a seriously flawed team. Eisley, Anderson, Spoon, Creeky Deke? What is it that fans wanted Allan to accomplish with that group of winners?

I wish he was healthy, his one dimension would greatly help us. It is a dimension we are missing.
gunsnewing
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1/22/2005  5:58 PM
thats because sprewell was stuck guarding the opposing team's best perimeter player while houston was doing nothing more than jump shooting
Silverfuel
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1/22/2005  8:16 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

thats because sprewell was stuck guarding the opposing team's best perimeter player while houston was doing nothing more than jump shooting
I am surprised how easily people forget why Sprewell didnt score as much as Houston. Sprewell was always given the harder guy to guard on one end and Houston was always the focus of the Knick offense on the other end. This was mainly because Houston could do nothing on Defense.

So basically, Sprewell had to play defense against a guy taller and bigger than him and then try and score points on the same taller and bigger guy while playing out of position?? All this while everyone was standing around watching Houston, fake a drive, fake another drive, pump fake and then miss the shot 55% of the times.

Comparing Sprewell to Houston is a complete joke because Sprewell always was the better player. Of course, Houston's jump shot looked sweeter but thats about it. All the fickle fans should remember that Houston did play defense for a playoff run in 99 and the extire next season but then stopped as soon as he signed his contract.

He started to become more and more of a 1-dimensional jumpshooter after his contract year. I am really glad we dont have to depend on him for anything anymore. He is supposed to be a 3rd option on a championship team just like any shooting specialist.

I would take Spree in his Prime over Houston in his prime and I bet the rest of the NBA agrees. And I bet so does Isiah.
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OldFan
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1/22/2005  10:29 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

Wally, Ray Allen, Mike Miller, Reggie Miller, Manu, Darius Miles, ricky davis and even hersey hawkins averge at least 46% some of those guys average 48% for their career. Houston averaged 48% once. Yet he was given 100million based on a "sweet jumpshot" He does have a very sweet jumpshot but they should've taken his career FG% into consideration. They gave him 100mil after he had his one and only 48% shooting season. Coincidently that was the one season where he actually drove the ball,dished 3assits, grabbed 3rebs and played defense. After getting the money he became a completely one dimensional jumpshooter.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 01/22/2005 15:28:52]

I had Reggie wrong - he actually averaged 47%
None of them average 48%
Hawkins and Allen M Miller are 44%
Darias Miles is 46% but the guys has never averaged more the 12.6 per - you have to compare Houston to guys who actually score.

I don't want to say Houston is great he's not. But he is a very good shooter and there aren't then many who are better.
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