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i wouldnt add payroll UNLESS it was for a young player here is why
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BRIGGS
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1/14/2005  11:46 AM
OK, if there was 1 player that was a difference maker from the team's ability to be a player in the playoffs, by all means do it. Im just equating what I believe we can do against miami, which is not including the Pacers and pistons--who when they get things righted are well far above us. If we spent an EXTRA 16 mm$ on long term salary,will it put us on par with the ability to beat Miami in a 7 game series. answer NO jalen rose will not put us anywher near over the top. Hes 32 years old, hes not the player he once was, hes slow a foot and terrible on the D. To me, thats not worth an extra 16 mm

were in our so-called easiest stretch of the year, it becomes much harder very soon. if we cant win games now, no matter what excuse, i wouldnt be spending a nickel more UNLESS it netted me something like Kwame, whom Id be willing to wait out his injury and settle him in at starting C. Id be willing to do a lot there to get him here. I still go back to some of his games coming down the stretch last year when at 21 he had a 30 point 20 rebound 5 block game against a very good Sacremento team and I ask myself can this kid give me 18-20-10-2.5 when completely healthy next year, and I think he can.
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bigpimpin
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1/14/2005  11:56 AM
kwame brown is a bust. add to the fact now that he is unmotivated

i agree with you that the knicks should add a younger frontcourt player and i think isiah would agree with you also but i think the problem isiah is having, and i could be wrong now

but i don't think any team is trying to give away a solid young player

plus when you are over the cap with somewhat maxed players as the knicks are, it would seem they would have a better chance of finding WMD's in iraq than matching salaries

but like i said i could be wrong

it doesn't happen overnight, Briggs but i think isiah is going to put this franchise back into contention in due time
"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
djsunyc
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1/14/2005  11:56 AM
fair enough briggs, but what if rose came along with a #1 pick. i would NEVER do that trade unless we get a #1 in return.

don't you think having 2 #1's could net us a young big that much easier?

what if you turn nazr + #1 for kwame
then turn kurt + #1 into swift
then sign split the MLE with hunter/backup PG?

heck, even kurt + BOTH #1's for kwame - i know you'd do that one.


isn't acquiring that extra #1 worth the $16mil for one more year? or maybe even just using them to move up in the draft or heck, even just drafting the players. that would give us 5 players in all (2 #1's, craw, ariza, sweets) to really build something.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 01/14/2005 12:01:10]
bigpimpin
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1/14/2005  12:02 PM
kurt thomas AND a no.1 pick for stromile swift

say what

nazr AND a no.1 for Kwame

you may not believe me but nazr and kurt have better numbers than swift and kwame.

i think you are being unfair to our players
"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
fishmike
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1/14/2005  12:50 PM
I would take Penny for Rose and a #1, but not the Heat's #1. you can just buy a late pick in the draft for $1mill or so, it happens every year. Taking Rose is buying a #1 for $14mm. Thats just irresponsible.

If its for Tor's unrestricted pick OK. Maybe they can take Miami's #1 back and we get Toronto's.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
newyorknewyork
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1/14/2005  1:02 PM
I don't get the deal at all. I know Penny is making 14.6mil for basically no production. But why not just keep developing Ariza and let Penny walk. A few yrs down the road Ariza will be better than Rose or better for the team anyway. And we would save ourselves a ton of money. Penny next season when his salary is in its walking yr would have more value than Rose.
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franco12
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1/14/2005  1:25 PM
Posted by fishmike:

I would take Penny for Rose and a #1, but not the Heat's #1. you can just buy a late pick in the draft for $1mill or so, it happens every year. Taking Rose is buying a #1 for $14mm. Thats just irresponsible.

If its for Tor's unrestricted pick OK. Maybe they can take Miami's #1 back and we get Toronto's.

Would you trade Penny & Ariza for Rose & Toronto's #1 unrestricted?

I could see Toronto doing that- Ariza might be as good as anything they get in the draft- they get him now so he can develop, make mistakes this year.
djsunyc
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1/14/2005  1:27 PM
Posted by bigpimpin:

kurt thomas AND a no.1 pick for stromile swift

say what

nazr AND a no.1 for Kwame

you may not believe me but nazr and kurt have better numbers than swift and kwame.

i think you are being unfair to our players

this probably calls for another thread but moving kurt and nazr and #1's for two young players <25 that can be your starting frontcourt for the next 10 years who are athletic and fill needs is a no brainer to me. i think very highly of kwame's and swift's potential and very lowly of nazr's and kurt's impact.
djsunyc
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1/14/2005  1:29 PM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by fishmike:

I would take Penny for Rose and a #1, but not the Heat's #1. you can just buy a late pick in the draft for $1mill or so, it happens every year. Taking Rose is buying a #1 for $14mm. Thats just irresponsible.

If its for Tor's unrestricted pick OK. Maybe they can take Miami's #1 back and we get Toronto's.

Would you trade Penny & Ariza for Rose & Toronto's #1 unrestricted?

I could see Toronto doing that- Ariza might be as good as anything they get in the draft- they get him now so he can develop, make mistakes this year.

depends where the pick is and who's available.
Vmart
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1/14/2005  1:31 PM
I too want to see Kwame in NYK uni. This guy is big and athletic. Not taking away from Nazr or anything but if you have a choice between the two I think you take Kwame. His potential is great and he has improved steadily every year. He has the potential to be a 20-10 big man. Side him with Sweetney and you got a front line that will do damage against most teams. Not to high on Swift though I know he is an athletic freak but he remeinds me to much of Camby in that he has weak skill level.

This young core looks very promising for the KNicks:
Ariza sf
Sweetney pf
Brown C
Crawford sg
Marbury pg

Most of the peices are already there and its not a drastic change at all. Only thing that I would change in the future is probably Marbury and get a pure pg who is pass first. In the mold of a Nash or Kidd.
fishmike
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1/14/2005  1:53 PM
I would do the Rose +#1 for Penny/Ariza trade if the Tor pick is unrestricted. That pick will be a top 5 and possibly be a top 3. Only problem is the best players are smalls and you have big long term deals at every wind spot, but the thing with a pick like that is to just get the best player.

Ive been reading about Andrew Bogut some... seems like a hell of a player but a bit of a 4/5 tweener.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TMS
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1/14/2005  1:58 PM
man, i'd really hate to lose Ariza, but for a top 5 pick you have to consider it
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Pike
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1/14/2005  1:59 PM
I'll tell you someone else who would probably like to see Kwame Brown in a Knicks uniform.... Ernie Grunfeld!

Brown is having trouble getting minutes from two mediocre centers and appears to have the passion of a sleepwalker.
fishmike
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1/14/2005  2:04 PM
so trade him for Nazr straight up right now. Nazr would benfit from Arenas and Hughes just like he does from Marbury. He would give them a DD most nights if he got 25-32 minutes
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Pike
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1/14/2005  2:16 PM
... with Arenas, Jamison and Hughes, I think the Wizards would be better if they had Nazr. Brown is treated like a God by some around here and he hasn't done anything to earn it. So far, Kwame Brown = first pick in (weak) draft colassal bust... could this change? Possible but unlikely at this point.

Unlike the tin man, you can't acquire "heart".

[Edited by - Pike on 01/14/2005 14:17:11]
fishmike
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1/14/2005  2:30 PM
Brown's improved each year, he's dont things like attend that big man's camp in the offseason and has had some MONSTER games.

Nazr = nice player
Kwame = prospect with Jermain Oneil type upside and 6 years younger
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
kam77
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1/14/2005  2:35 PM
I'm for adding any contract or trading any player, as long as the Knicks can time things right to shed salary and sign LeBron James in summer of 2008 as an unrestricted FA, or go after him as a RFA in 2007.

Jalen's Rose contract runs as long as Allan Houston's. By the summer of 2008, the only guaranteed contracts we have are Marbury and Crawford (30mil). We may have resigned Ariza and Sweetney or have traded them by then (40mil?). At any rate, we need to be able to at least be under the cap enough to field a competetive offer to LeBron james. This I can't verify, but i've recently read somewhere (hoopshype.com?) that he has incentives in his contract with one or more of his corporate sponsors where his deal would increase in value if he were to play in either NY, CHI, or LA. The kind of money we are talking about would far surpass the MAX contract that CLE could give LeBron.

So the Knicks wouldn't have to offer LeBron a MAX deal in theory i guess. Maybe he could come here for the MLE for three years as long as he'd be sure that he would recoup the money in sponsorship deals and endorsement contracts.

Now realistically, LeBron figures he has enough money and all things being equal would prefer to stay in his home state and play for Cleveland. But if the CAVS are still a mediocre team by then, LeBron could decide that he wants to go somewhere with a better shot at winning a Championship, and all the better if that place is LA, NY, or CHI.

Now CHI could get him, as LeBron wears his #23 in honor of MJ. CHI would probably have a young and pretty good team by then, and able to field an offer to LeBron. LA would have Kobe and I don't see LeBron playing with Kobe in any Universe. But the Clips also play in LA. The NETS will be heading to Brooklyn and could also have a good team and an offer for LBJ.

This is an interesting subplot in the context of how Isiah should plan to build this team after the "PATCHWORK" period is over. By his own words isiah said that PATCHWORK would last 3 or 4 years (this was last yr) alluding to the length of NYs most onerous contract (Allan Houston).

Once Allan, Shandon, and Jalen Rose are off the books the summer after next, and we've maybe resigned Ariza and Sweets, who knows what we do with Nazr... we should at least be ready to make LeBron an offer in restricted free agency. That is the year LeBron will decide to sign a longterm extension with Cleveland, or just play out his final year as a restricted FA, and become a full FA in the summer of 2008. Isiah needs to make a case to LeBron by 2007, why he should come here and play out the rest of his 20s in a Knick uniform.

So is Jalen Rose the answer? No, but he helps in the near-term and we can put Allan on IR and JC all the rest he needs while Jalen picks up the slack. Jalen's extra year is insignificant. Who cares about fiscal responsibility when we are that far over the cap. Just make sure not to sign anyone that has a contract that extends any longer because we can't have anything threaten the LeBron plan.

And finally, if you think it is asking too much too soon to think about LeBron, when the % chance he will come to NY is 20% at best?

To that I say, there are consolation prizes like Dwayne Wade and Carmelo Anthony to be had as well. Any player who can rack up endorsements, will likely have escalating triggers in their contracts that would far surpass what they actually make in NBA $$$.



lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Pike
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1/14/2005  2:35 PM
In this league you can't afford to make mistakes, with players and contracts (i.e. see Scott Layden)... I will not spend all it would take to land a guy like him, with all that potential because the guy has no heart, questionable work ethic and the progress you allude to.. has been very underwhelming, as far as I'm concerned. Agree to disagree but, I wouldn't give up either Sweetney or Ariza for him.

I'd take a look if it cost me close to nothing as a reclamation project, that's it.
Pike
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1/14/2005  2:37 PM
p.s. to me Curry has shown that progress and is everything Brown is not. He's the player you seek, you just don't know it.
fishmike
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1/14/2005  2:54 PM
I would have no problem with that.. none at all. Curry's an interesting player.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
i wouldnt add payroll UNLESS it was for a young player here is why

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