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This is what we are missing from Brunson and MitchRob
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GustavBahler
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10/25/2023  10:38 PM

Not nearly enough of this
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BigDaddyG
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10/25/2023  11:46 PM
We don't do lobs. Brunson, IQ and RJ remember to do it every once in a while. Grimes does it but he don't really get the ball enough. Has been a thing going back to Elfrid Payton.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
martin
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10/25/2023  11:50 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:We don't do lobs. Brunson, IQ and RJ remember to do it every once in a while. Grimes does it but he don't really get the ball enough. Has been a thing going back to Elfrid Payton.

As well, Mitch’s overall offensive recognition is very low. Bad at coming out of PnRs. Poor hands except at lobs.

Just can’t force it.

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Nalod
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10/26/2023  7:56 AM
Teams are not worried about Mitch shooting so PNR are limited. ALso, Boston was huge last night so no easy lobs.
Ref’s screwed Brunson with is “flop”. He landed on Tatum’s foot who put it under him.
GustavBahler
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10/26/2023  9:25 AM
How many starting PGs have the Knicks gone through since Mitch was drafted? How much continuity?

Put Mitch on a team with a pass first PG, or at least one thats looking to get Mitch involved, we'll see the highlights we watched from earlier in his career IMO.

I believe its disingenuous to put it all on Mitch, continuity helps with an old school big who needs to be fed the ball. Another team will figure this out if the Knicks dont.
martin
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10/26/2023  9:34 AM
GustavBahler wrote:How many starting PGs have the Knicks gone through since Mitch was drafted? How much continuity?

Put Mitch on a team with a pass first PG, or at least one thats looking to get Mitch involved, we'll see the highlights we watched from earlier in his career IMO.

I believe its disingenuous to put it all on Mitch, continuity helps with an old school big who needs to be fed the ball. Another team will figure this out if the Knicks dont.

You are reading the room wrong cause no one has done so. It's pretty clear that the Knicks also have passers that are not at the level to maximize Mitch and his dunking (or Grimes and his shooting), and they need to do better.

Knicks just played one of the best teams in the league with maybe one of 3 or 4 centers in the league that'll give him and the team fits.

For me, it's just the evolution of a young'ish team that is still figuring things out. Brunson is at the top of that list followed by RJ and Randle and then IQ. Those are the guys with the ball in their hands and they need to do better.

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Clean
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10/26/2023  10:24 AM
This is something I was thinking about last night. This team does not fit well at all.

Mitch is a lob threat and no one throws lobs.
Grimes is a shooter and never gets the ball to shoot no matter how open he is.
Randle does not fit with anyone.

The starting lineup have too many negative defenders and poor shooters.
So the paint is always packed and we don't pass to the only shooter so our offense stinks unless we get offensive rebounds.
They then have to do dumb doubles because of all the bad defenders on the floor at the same time.

That is all I can remember after just waking up but I know there are more. The missmatch nature of our roster is why things are never easy for us.
martin
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10/26/2023  10:33 AM
Clean wrote:This is something I was thinking about last night. This team does not fit well at all.

Mitch is a lob threat and no one throws lobs.
Grimes is a shooter and never gets the ball to shoot no matter how open he is.
Randle does not fit with anyone.

The starting lineup have too many negative defenders and poor shooters.
So the paint is always packed and we don't pass to the only shooter so our offense stinks unless we get offensive rebounds.
They then have to do dumb doubles because of all the bad defenders on the floor at the same time.

That is all I can remember after just waking up but I know there are more. The missmatch nature of our roster is why things are never easy for us.

And yet, the Knicks have figured out how to be one of the better offensive teams on a per possession basis. While maintaining about the 5th best record in the league after they sat Fournier last year. So SOMETHING is working.

While trouncing one of the better young, defensive teams in the league last year who went all in with their assets to get DM.

There may be some in-between conclusions to get to.

It is not pretty but it is effective. Pretty may be the next step for the team.

I think the mismatch nature of the roster is exactly where they should be. And the Knicks know this too, that's why they setting themselves up for massive trades and maximizing everything to do so.

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Clean
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10/26/2023  10:37 AM
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:This is something I was thinking about last night. This team does not fit well at all.

Mitch is a lob threat and no one throws lobs.
Grimes is a shooter and never gets the ball to shoot no matter how open he is.
Randle does not fit with anyone.

The starting lineup have too many negative defenders and poor shooters.
So the paint is always packed and we don't pass to the only shooter so our offense stinks unless we get offensive rebounds.
They then have to do dumb doubles because of all the bad defenders on the floor at the same time.

That is all I can remember after just waking up but I know there are more. The missmatch nature of our roster is why things are never easy for us.

And yet, the Knicks have figured out how to be one of the better offensive teams on a per possession basis. While maintaining about the 5th best record in the league after they sat Fournier last year. So SOMETHING is working.

While trouncing one of the better young, defensive teams in the league last year who went all in with their assets to get DM.

There may be some in-between conclusions to get to.

It is not pretty but it is effective. Pretty may be the next step for the team.

I think the mismatch nature of the roster is exactly where they should be. And the Knicks know this too, that's why they setting themselves up for massive trades and maximizing everything to do so.

I did say unless we get offensive rebounds. Off rebounds are the reason why our offense was good. Without them the stats said we have bad offense. It is why once The Heat put an end to Mitch off rebounds we struggled to score the whole series.
VDesai
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10/26/2023  10:52 AM
There won't be any "unlocking" Mitch. He has bad hands. His inability to cleanly catch or dribble will always limit his offense. The best we can hope for is he improves his FTs. If he does he might get the ball thrown to him more. It's always fun when someone gives him a good drive and dish and he gets fouled, but gets the ball no where near the basket and misses two FTs.

That being said he is a very, very useful player. But he's not unlocking offense for us and won't.
GustavBahler
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10/26/2023  11:03 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/26/2023  11:04 AM
VDesai wrote:There won't be any "unlocking" Mitch. He has bad hands. His inability to cleanly catch or dribble will always limit his offense. The best we can hope for is he improves his FTs. If he does he might get the ball thrown to him more. It's always fun when someone gives him a good drive and dish and he gets fouled, but gets the ball no where near the basket and misses two FTs.

That being said he is a very, very useful player. But he's not unlocking offense for us and won't.

You're putting in quotes something that wasnt said. Mitch is in the same mold as Deandre Jordan and he just might make the HOF some day. If he gets there its because PGs were making the most of his skill set. Can anyone reasonably argue that the Knicks are making the best use of Mitch's skill set?

Spacing is a big part of it IMO. The better the spacing, the easier it will be to find a cutting MitchRob. Brunson and Randle dominating the offense, looking off Grimes (as clean pointed out) doesnt help.

I'm not expecting anyone to "unlock" Mitch, your words. I am hoping to see Brunson, other starters make more of a concerted effort to get Mitch the ball where he likes it. I dont see that right now.
BigDaddyG
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10/26/2023  11:44 AM
martin wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:We don't do lobs. Brunson, IQ and RJ remember to do it every once in a while. Grimes does it but he don't really get the ball enough. Has been a thing going back to Elfrid Payton.

As well, Mitch’s overall offensive recognition is very low. Bad at coming out of PnRs. Poor hands except at lobs.

Just can’t force it.


Yeah, but Obi faced the same situation and although his picks were soft, he had very good timing on the roll. And that's not even mentioning all the potential lobs off of ball cuts that are missed. I was listening to the Wolves radio feed during the Knicks. Mike Conley bluntly stated that their scouting report has us as very iso-centric and not the most willing passing team during halftime. And I'm kinda sugarcoating the way he worded that statement. I did not blame Thibs in the early going, because that's what the team needed. But this team isn't progressing unless it shows some evolution in it's offense system.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
martin
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10/26/2023  12:14 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
martin wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:We don't do lobs. Brunson, IQ and RJ remember to do it every once in a while. Grimes does it but he don't really get the ball enough. Has been a thing going back to Elfrid Payton.

As well, Mitch’s overall offensive recognition is very low. Bad at coming out of PnRs. Poor hands except at lobs.

Just can’t force it.


Yeah, but Obi faced the same situation and although his picks were soft, he had very good timing on the roll. And that's not even mentioning all the potential lobs off of ball cuts that are missed. I was listening to the Wolves radio feed during the Knicks. Mike Conley bluntly stated that their scouting report has us as very iso-centric and not the most willing passing team during halftime. And I'm kinda sugarcoating the way he worded that statement. I did not blame Thibs in the early going, because that's what the team needed. But this team isn't progressing unless it shows some evolution in it's offense system.

I don’t disagree with any of that.

It’s why there should be good reason to discuss what types of players that takes and what talent level you have and where those players are within their dev timeline. And then look hard at what RJ Randle mean to a team and what they mean to the Knicks.

Knicks have got a for-sure foundational piece in Brunson. Everything after that is up for grabs.

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Chandler
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10/26/2023  2:51 PM
Clean wrote:
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:This is something I was thinking about last night. This team does not fit well at all.

Mitch is a lob threat and no one throws lobs.
Grimes is a shooter and never gets the ball to shoot no matter how open he is.
Randle does not fit with anyone.

The starting lineup have too many negative defenders and poor shooters.
So the paint is always packed and we don't pass to the only shooter so our offense stinks unless we get offensive rebounds.
They then have to do dumb doubles because of all the bad defenders on the floor at the same time.

That is all I can remember after just waking up but I know there are more. The missmatch nature of our roster is why things are never easy for us.

And yet, the Knicks have figured out how to be one of the better offensive teams on a per possession basis. While maintaining about the 5th best record in the league after they sat Fournier last year. So SOMETHING is working.

While trouncing one of the better young, defensive teams in the league last year who went all in with their assets to get DM.

There may be some in-between conclusions to get to.

It is not pretty but it is effective. Pretty may be the next step for the team.

I think the mismatch nature of the roster is exactly where they should be. And the Knicks know this too, that's why they setting themselves up for massive trades and maximizing everything to do so.

I did say unless we get offensive rebounds. Off rebounds are the reason why our offense was good. Without them the stats said we have bad offense. It is why once The Heat put an end to Mitch off rebounds we struggled to score the whole series.

We also don't turn the ball over. SO the math turns into we have more shot attempts from offensive (and defensive) rebounding plus not coughing it up. Those are good things

Our shooting % needs to improve, but you have to admit if the guy you use to improve shooting % is a poor rebounder (or boxer-outer) and has turn overs you can end up moving backwards. there are a lot of moving pieces

(5)(7)
Chandler
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10/26/2023  2:56 PM
FWIW i think Mitch's hands are just fine and i would even say very good

What stinks is his anticipation not helped by the fact of his random usage. He gets hypnotized by the rim often, because he's at the point of not expecting the ball,

I'm not saying he needs more touches either, though it would be nice to look for him more when the opportunities present itself. I mean c'mnon guy does have a high %

(5)(7)
martin
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10/27/2023  9:40 AM
Clean wrote:
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:This is something I was thinking about last night. This team does not fit well at all.

Mitch is a lob threat and no one throws lobs.
Grimes is a shooter and never gets the ball to shoot no matter how open he is.
Randle does not fit with anyone.

The starting lineup have too many negative defenders and poor shooters.
So the paint is always packed and we don't pass to the only shooter so our offense stinks unless we get offensive rebounds.
They then have to do dumb doubles because of all the bad defenders on the floor at the same time.

That is all I can remember after just waking up but I know there are more. The missmatch nature of our roster is why things are never easy for us.

And yet, the Knicks have figured out how to be one of the better offensive teams on a per possession basis. While maintaining about the 5th best record in the league after they sat Fournier last year. So SOMETHING is working.

While trouncing one of the better young, defensive teams in the league last year who went all in with their assets to get DM.

There may be some in-between conclusions to get to.

It is not pretty but it is effective. Pretty may be the next step for the team.

I think the mismatch nature of the roster is exactly where they should be. And the Knicks know this too, that's why they setting themselves up for massive trades and maximizing everything to do so.

I did say unless we get offensive rebounds. Off rebounds are the reason why our offense was good. Without them the stats said we have bad offense. It is why once The Heat put an end to Mitch off rebounds we struggled to score the whole series.

I have to tell you Clean, I think the combo of Mitch/iHart got their share of offensive rebounds and rebounding in general during the playoffs. It's the shooters that weren't doing their job, and unusually so.

Knicks were dead last in 3pt% in the playoffs (both overall and specifically in second round at 29%). Mitch/iHart were able to corral their share of the rebounds but only so much you can do when everyone is missing everything from outside.

Again Miami, these are the main culprits: Randle 28%, Grimes 29%, Obi 27%, Hart 24%, IQ 19%. Only Brunson 35% and RJ 38% showed up.

Miami:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2023-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-heat-vs-knicks.html

Playoffs team stats, 3pt Shooting and ORebounding:
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/traditional?PORound=0&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Playoffs&dir=A&sort=FG3_PCT
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/traditional?PORound=0&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Playoffs&dir=A&sort=OREB

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LivingLegend
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10/27/2023  10:41 AM
This is a harsh take but Mitch sucks on offense and his offensive rebounding is highly overrated because he spends more time standing around.under the rim than +95% of the big men in the league…..basically saying he better be rebounding because he plays with a bunch of brick layers and he stands around the basket all night. He can’t score, screen or pass and he should wear a blindfold shooting free throws. He’s AWFUL offensively.

Was that harsh?

martin
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10/27/2023  2:22 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/27/2023  2:23 PM
LivingLegend wrote:This is a harsh take but Mitch sucks on offense and his offensive rebounding is highly overrated because he spends more time standing around.under the rim than +95% of the big men in the league…..basically saying he better be rebounding because he plays with a bunch of brick layers and he stands around the basket all night. He can’t score, screen or pass and he should wear a blindfold shooting free throws. He’s AWFUL offensively.

Was that harsh?

Harsh enough to thoroughly dominate the Cavs

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blkexec
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10/27/2023  5:42 PM
martin wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:This is a harsh take but Mitch sucks on offense and his offensive rebounding is highly overrated because he spends more time standing around.under the rim than +95% of the big men in the league…..basically saying he better be rebounding because he plays with a bunch of brick layers and he stands around the basket all night. He can’t score, screen or pass and he should wear a blindfold shooting free throws. He’s AWFUL offensively.

Was that harsh?

Harsh enough to thoroughly dominate the Cavs

I can understand your point, if you expected Mitch (who never played college ball) to all of a sudden become this offensive phenom?

Mitch full value is not in his current state, that’s only half way developed. But if or when s star center come over, Mitch goes to bench. Right now I’ll take a defensive force and rim protector waiting for his iso offense to come to fruition.

Personally I think we have 3 backup centers and hoping Mitch can grow into a solid starter.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
GustavBahler
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10/28/2023  12:50 AM
Mitch had a monster game on defense, but was repeatedly looked off of PnRs.

Mitch busted his butt on D, best way to keep him engaged on offense is to make him a part of it.

The coaching staff watches film. Ive never seen a starting PG freeze out their Center like that. Even one with suspect hands.
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