yr 1 3000 minutes 81 games Coach Vinnie (Rookie)
yr 2 2871 minutes 78 games coach Vinnie (Allstar)
yr 3 3026 minutes 81 games Coach Thibs (MVP) 32 seconds per game more his MVP season and Thibs first.
yr 4 played in 39 of 66 (short season) games and had avg'd 35.3 min that season.
Why he missed games?

From ESPN article April 29th, 2012,
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/7868819/derrick-rose-torn-acl-caps-injury-plagued-nba-season

It all began less than two weeks into the season when Rose fell hard enough on his elbow to warrant X-rays. He escaped unscathed (X-rays were negative) but that would be the last time he would be so lucky. Less than a week later a collision with Timberwolves forward Anthony Tolliver resulted in a sprained left big toe. He missed one game but returned to action three days later, despite persistent pain. He lasted two games but then was forced to miss the next four because of the toe. Rose returned to the lineup in late January and seemed to be off to a fresh start.
Then the problems really began. Back spasms cropped up in February and forced Rose out for more than a week. A few weeks later there were reports of a groin strain which led to another dozen absences. Rose returned for one game (yes, just one) before a sprained right ankle caused him to miss more time. Days later it was his right foot sidelining him. Rose, who had missed very little game action before this season, expressed frustration with the cumulative injuries, at the time telling reporters, "For someone to not miss more than seven, 10 games in a year (my first three seasons), to miss 20 something, 30 something games, it hurts, man."

Who else played big minutes that MVP season?
On the Bulls: Luol Deng, age 25 avg'd 39min per game that very season.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_totals.html#totals_stats::mp

Lets get some perspective.......

Drose in his MVP season was 9th in total minutes that year.
What about Avg. per game?? 14th.
Monta Ellis lead with 40.3, Rudy Gay, 39.9, Aldridge, 39.6.......Deng was 4th.

So, did Thibs run him in the ground or did it just suck that he blew out? This was the reigning MVP and just 23 years old. He did a jump stop and the leg gave out.

April 28, 2012, during Game 1 of the first round of the playoffs against the Philadelphia 76ers, Derrick Rose injured his left knee while trying to jump. He was immediately helped off the court. The injury occurred when the Bulls were leading by 12 points with 1:22 left to play. Rose came up just short of a triple-double, finishing with 23 points, 9 assists, and 9 rebounds in 37 minutes of action. An MRI later revealed that Rose tore the ACL in his left knee and would miss the rest of the playoffs.

Personally I think both Rose and Thibs are at fault, regarding Drose injuries.

The way Rose plays is prone to get injured. He uses so much energy on every move and he lands with his legs or one leg straight. So he was doomed from the jump unless he changed his mechanics.

Thibs is also at fault because he knows how rose plays and how explosive he was. It was also clear that rose doesn’t land well, after a monster dunk. You have to be careful with Guys like this. Just because other coaches have played Rose heavy mins. Or other mvp candidates play heavy mins. That has nothing to do with rose and his personal mechanic flaws on his landing and explosive jump hop moves in traffic.

So both can share the blame game. But taking a step back, why does this matter?

Thibs is old school and he’s stuck in his ways. I wish thibs was more like Steve Kerr who played 2 rookies off the bench during quality playoff mins. But the reality is thibs is not Kerr and Thibs is our coach. There’s nothing we can do but hope thibs has learned and can adjust next season. Otherwise the FO needs to put up bumper rails like in bowling. And give thibs a roster to succeed, without having too many roster options. Or overloading the roster with high priced roll player vets mixed with quality draft picks (or high draft picks in Obi) ready to step up.

blkexec wrote:Nalod you did a great job of laying out the details, but why? This seems like a personal response to someone in this forum. Otherwise why go so hard to protect thibs rep?

Personally I think both Rose and Thibs are at fault, regarding Drose injuries.

The way Rose plays is prone to get injured. He uses so much energy on every move and he lands with his legs or one leg straight. So he was doomed from the jump unless he changed his mechanics.

Thibs is also at fault because he knows how rose plays and how explosive he was. It was also clear that rose doesn’t land well, after a monster dunk. You have to be careful with Guys like this. Just because other coaches have played Rose heavy mins. Or other mvp candidates play heavy mins. That has nothing to do with rose and his personal mechanic flaws on his landing and explosive jump hop moves in traffic.

So both can share the blame game. But taking a step back, why does this matter?

Somehow a coach is at fault for.... playing a player? All coaches are to blame for their player's injuries? It's a dumb take.

blkexec wrote:Thibs is old school and he’s stuck in his ways. I wish thibs was more like Steve Kerr who played 2 rookies off the bench during quality playoff mins. But the reality is thibs is not Kerr and Thibs is our coach. There’s nothing we can do but hope thibs has learned and can adjust next season. Otherwise the FO needs to put up bumper rails like in bowling. And give thibs a roster to succeed, without having too many roster options. Or overloading the roster with high priced roll player vets mixed with quality draft picks (or high draft picks in Obi) ready to step up.

Thibs did, he played both Obi and IQ as much or more than Kerr played his rookies. You can actually look it up, you don't have to rely on anything more than that.

Let's be honest, you don't know much about Thibs or what he is or isn't doing. You just make stuff up to not like him based off of some predetermined misconception and then blindly run with it.

I think Thibs gets players to play really hard with his grind it out style. That is good, you want a coach to get guys to play hard. But I think there is a cost there.

Anyone think Randle struggled this year because he was burnt out from last year? Not everyone is Michael Jordan and can go all out all the time.

Thibs will get fired when the FO thinks the players have tuned him out, which may or may not happen.

blkexec wrote:Martin, are you ok?

What the hell is a dump take?

Yes a coach can be at fault for playing a player. Yes that’s correct. You play them when the game is out of reach and they get injured. Yes a coach takes part in that blame. But there’s always enough blame to go around, if you are that blame game type person.

Again WTF is a dump take? Are you responding to have s conversation or just TROLLING?

Martin, have you watched any games brother? Or do you just stare at stats? Thibs played IQ, Grimes Obi or whoever else that wasn’t a vet because of COVID and injuries. Stop giving thibs all this credit please, that he doesn’t deserve. And let’s just hope he learned his lesson. To me if we bring the same roster back next year and everybody is healthy and Covid free, and he continues to play the vets over the rookies, or the team starts off slow with Burks at point, you can now shift your energy away from me and to the garden crowd boo birds. 🤣 They will be louder than my little post reply. Just imagine if I started this thread.

Thibs played his roster. So did Kerr. Who did Kerr forgo to give minutes to his yoot?
And why has some of them been sitting?

Is it because Klay came back?

Draymond Green missed 36 games this season. I guess injuries game Kuminga minutes. Wiseman did not play.
Klay missed 50 games. They bought him back slowly too.

There were minutes to play yoot. It happens. Then you go with the players on the roster that are available.
Burks might not have been theh answer but he was not as awful as promoted here and your assuming if the kids got more run things would have happend sooner because it did eventually? Does learniing really happen like that? Or practice and confidence also play a role?
Most NBA players are good enough to play and have some level of success. Why does a Knox come out strong then not progress? Or Trier? Did Fiz ruin them? They got to play? I’ll use those two because they were not held to a high enough standard by their coach. They were not learning fast enough to evolve.
Look at Miami. You have to play the right type of defense and move fast or. You don’t play. That is the engine of that team. Thibs engine is similar. If your not scoring you better be doing other things. I know what I saw. IQ had turnovers, was not getting to the fouline, and he was not hitting his shot. Obis defense and outside shot suffered thru parts of the season.

If you read up Drose had multiple injuries that season and perhaps the smallest tweek and stress from compensating was the tipping point. NBA has hundreds of players who deal with injuries and don’t blow out the ACL. The simple fact is the outlier occurrence then becomes scrutinized and we look for reasons. Naturally you think the player should not have been in the game. Why? He got injured. OK, nothing wrong with that.
If he does not get injured nobody thinks about it.
How many games did Rose play in his life prior where he did not blow out his knee? Hours in the playground? Practicing to hone his craft to be not just one of the 1% to ever put on an NBA uniform but reach the very top of the list! How many kids in high school blow that knee out and never get the chance?
My point is occurrence and perception. If Rose does not put in those hours he does not succeed.
You read enough about ACL’s and you come to understand its not one game. Its accumulative. Pro’s are paid crazy money and there is pressure to play thru injuries. You know this going in to it.

blkexec wrote:Martin, are you ok?

What the hell is a dump take?

Yes a coach can be at fault for playing a player. Yes that’s correct. You play them when the game is out of reach and they get injured. Yes a coach takes part in that blame. But there’s always enough blame to go around, if you are that blame game type person.

Again WTF is a dump take? Are you responding to have s conversation or just TROLLING?

Martin, have you watched any games brother? Or do you just stare at stats? Thibs played IQ, Grimes Obi or whoever else that wasn’t a vet because of COVID and injuries. Stop giving thibs all this credit please, that he doesn’t deserve. And let’s just hope he learned his lesson. To me if we bring the same roster back next year and everybody is healthy and Covid free, and he continues to play the vets over the rookies, or the team starts off slow with Burks at point, you can now shift your energy away from me and to the garden crowd boo birds. 🤣 They will be louder than my little post reply. Just imagine if I started this thread.

Interestingly enough - the Knicks were .500 (22 - 22) with Burks starting (mostly at PG) last year. If Thibs is to be blamed for anything, it's that he wants to win every game no matter what - up until the point that the team is eliminated from playoff contention. I don't have an issue with this - and I think that it helps instill a winning culture across the Roster. The only conflict with this comes from my own selfish interest as a fan is to see what players like Deuce can do when the team appears to be floundering.

foosballnick wrote:

blkexec wrote:Martin, are you ok?

What the hell is a dump take?

Yes a coach can be at fault for playing a player. Yes that’s correct. You play them when the game is out of reach and they get injured. Yes a coach takes part in that blame. But there’s always enough blame to go around, if you are that blame game type person.

Again WTF is a dump take? Are you responding to have s conversation or just TROLLING?

Martin, have you watched any games brother? Or do you just stare at stats? Thibs played IQ, Grimes Obi or whoever else that wasn’t a vet because of COVID and injuries. Stop giving thibs all this credit please, that he doesn’t deserve. And let’s just hope he learned his lesson. To me if we bring the same roster back next year and everybody is healthy and Covid free, and he continues to play the vets over the rookies, or the team starts off slow with Burks at point, you can now shift your energy away from me and to the garden crowd boo birds. 🤣 They will be louder than my little post reply. Just imagine if I started this thread.

Interestingly enough - the Knicks were .500 (22 - 22) with Burks starting (mostly at PG) last year. If Thibs is to be blamed for anything, it's that he wants to win every game no matter what - up until the point that the team is eliminated from playoff contention. I don't have an issue with this - and I think that it helps instill a winning culture across the Roster. The only conflict with this comes from my own selfish interest as a fan is to see what players like Deuce can do when the team appears to be floundering.

First let me say blaming thibs or not blaming thibs is a discussion that gets old and stale real quick. I’m not sure I know and hear anybody today still debating that Thibs caused Rose to be injury prone or destroyed rose career or anything like that. What I hear or think about rose and Thibs impact is ROY. Thibs finds the guys he likes and runs them hard. DROSE can’t win ROY unless he has a coach like thibs. The first time in a very long time I’ve heard this discussion was in the thread title. Otherwise I thought it was water under the bridge.

He played Burks after elimination until the very end of the season. There’s a long line of yoots who should’ve got those mins with the season being over. For me, I didn’t need an automatic elimination algorithm to see these Knicks will either not make the playoffs or embarrassingly get swept. So to me he should’ve been pulled and IQ should’ve started earlier. Randle been acting like a brat and Obi should’ve played earlier. Would iq and Obi be ahead of where they at? Who knows that’s not my reason to play them earlier. It’s all about evaluating your yoots against real nba talent so that in the off season, the fans and FO will have more data to chew on. And the FO would make moves that makes since and the fans can follow. Play the yoots. Been yelling that half way through the season when it was clear we have regressed. You also see what you have in deuce, b4 you decide to shop him out or replace him and bury him further into the roster. In all people to not play deuce, I would not think thibs would be that guy. He played rose heavy mins and other rookies on other teams. He also hand picked deuce in the draft. So I thought it was a no braining. Unless I’m missing something, but playing Burks over the yoots when the team was trash, eliminated or both. And I’m one of the biggest Burks fan on this site. SORRY BUT HES NOT A PG. He definitely needs to be on the floor without a doubt.

The FO needs to do a better job building a team around thibs strengths while masking his weaknesses. Not sure how anything I’m saying is debatable but I’ll listen.

blkexec wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

blkexec wrote:Martin, are you ok?

What the hell is a dump take?

Yes a coach can be at fault for playing a player. Yes that’s correct. You play them when the game is out of reach and they get injured. Yes a coach takes part in that blame. But there’s always enough blame to go around, if you are that blame game type person.

Again WTF is a dump take? Are you responding to have s conversation or just TROLLING?

Martin, have you watched any games brother? Or do you just stare at stats? Thibs played IQ, Grimes Obi or whoever else that wasn’t a vet because of COVID and injuries. Stop giving thibs all this credit please, that he doesn’t deserve. And let’s just hope he learned his lesson. To me if we bring the same roster back next year and everybody is healthy and Covid free, and he continues to play the vets over the rookies, or the team starts off slow with Burks at point, you can now shift your energy away from me and to the garden crowd boo birds. 🤣 They will be louder than my little post reply. Just imagine if I started this thread.

Interestingly enough - the Knicks were .500 (22 - 22) with Burks starting (mostly at PG) last year. If Thibs is to be blamed for anything, it's that he wants to win every game no matter what - up until the point that the team is eliminated from playoff contention. I don't have an issue with this - and I think that it helps instill a winning culture across the Roster. The only conflict with this comes from my own selfish interest as a fan is to see what players like Deuce can do when the team appears to be floundering.

First let me say blaming thibs or not blaming thibs is a discussion that gets old and stale real quick. I’m not sure I know and hear anybody today still debating that Thibs caused Rose to be injury prone or destroyed rose career or anything like that. What I hear or think about rose and Thibs impact is ROY. Thibs finds the guys he likes and runs them hard. DROSE can’t win ROY unless he has a coach like thibs. The first time in a very long time I’ve heard this discussion was in the thread title. Otherwise I thought it was water under the bridge.

He played Burks after elimination until the very end of the season. There’s a long line of yoots who should’ve got those mins with the season being over. For me, I didn’t need an automatic elimination algorithm to see these Knicks will either not make the playoffs or embarrassingly get swept. So to me he should’ve been pulled and IQ should’ve started earlier. Randle been acting like a brat and Obi should’ve played earlier. Would iq and Obi be ahead of where they at? Who knows that’s not my reason to play them earlier. It’s all about evaluating your yoots against real nba talent so that in the off season, the fans and FO will have more data to chew on. And the FO would make moves that makes since and the fans can follow. Play the yoots. Been yelling that half way through the season when it was clear we have regressed. You also see what you have in deuce, b4 you decide to shop him out or replace him and bury him further into the roster. In all people to not play deuce, I would not think thibs would be that guy. He played rose heavy mins and other rookies on other teams. He also hand picked deuce in the draft. So I thought it was a no braining. Unless I’m missing something, but playing Burks over the yoots when the team was trash, eliminated or both. And I’m one of the biggest Burks fan on this site. SORRY BUT HES NOT A PG. He definitely needs to be on the floor without a doubt.

The FO needs to do a better job building a team around thibs strengths while masking his weaknesses. Not sure how anything I’m saying is debatable but I’ll listen.

It was mentioned in another thread that Thibs ran Drose into the ground.
Again, you just blew off the fact that Vinnie Del Negro was Drose coach his first two years. And I broke down his minutes.
Has Thibs run down anyone on the knicks?

Knicks finished 6 games out of final play in spot. Half way thru the season was your preference to go yoot. Knicks were eliminated on March 30th with loss to Hornets. Deuce played 9 min. Burks 40min , IQ 23 min
We did finish last 10 games 7-3
Final 5 games Things change.

Then Loss to Cavs. Burks plays 28 min, IQ 30. Mcbride DNP Was he dinged or being suppressed?

Win vs. Magic. They were tanking. Burks and IQ played 33 and 34min. Deuce 11

Loss to Nets, Burkes had a good game, 24 pts. IQ played 26 min and only 6 pts. Duece 7 min. Yoot get the hook for bad play?

Win vs. Wiz: Burks 33 min, IQ 36min and 23pts vs Wiz. Deuce 19min

Last game vs. Toronto Burks 40min. IQ 43 min, and 34 pts. I believe Deuce was hurt last game.

Not in those games or ones previous before eliminated how did IQ or Deuce play? Did they get the hook for missing assignments or just because Thibs is stubborn and wanted to make play in game?
And.........are his bosses telling him to please make the play in game? Like the owner? Did fans too?
Is winning beneficial to team growth? If the team is young, its also important.

We can build cases to defend our positions. Im defending facts and present what is in the gray area or not.
Also most teams go 9-10 deep in rotation.

Lets not forget that RJ played alot, and more important seemed to get better week to week. HE was responding and demonstrated proficient growth were IQ and OBI were not until the end of the season. If Thibs knew Jimmy Butler would Be Jimmy butler might he accelerated his curve if possible? Maybe. What is the end result for IQ, Deuce and OBI? Maybe in a year or two in hindsight we can say the same. Its easy to look back when you know the end result.

blkexec wrote:Yep….Vinny was the coach. I understand. If MDA was the coach instead of thibs I would’ve said the same thing about MDA because of his up and down style of play. Thibs is known to run his practices harder than the game. Personally that’s how I like to train. But I can also see how that can take a load on your body. Did Vinny run his practice like thibs? 🤷‍♂️ I honestly don’t know Vinny offensive style or structure. But I clearly said the blame can be spread around, and not just one coach. And thank you for clarifying that this was mentioned in another thread and not by me. Im past the blame game between them two.

Since you created this thread, what’s your take on who is blamed for Rose injuries? Interesting bar discussion. Because there’s no right or wrong answer.

Martin and others already convinced me that a lot of coaches play their starters heavy mins so I get it. But if someone blames thibs for heavy mins then in turn they are blaming the heavy mins and long hours of grinding. Everybody is not built to handle certain mins without breaking down. Maybe I just don’t like thibs and trying to find excuses why I dont. I loved Larry Brown hiring but it didn’t take me long to hate him. I loved thibs coming back to the garden but it didn’t take me long to see that thibs rotation and in game or half time adjustments was off or out played by the other coach. I didn’t know he was that stubborn until I saw in personally. That’s good and bad. Good for the players and stats and even wins. Bad on the body of a player who’s not built to handle that load. Like somebody said every is not MJ. But blaming thibs is not a long term discussion for me because at the end it really means nothing. My main concern with thibs is more about the other things than if he’s at fault for rose. He’s a contributor but how much? I don’t know. And it don’t matter anymore. We all want both to come back healthy and ready.

Thank you for bring up facts and data and stats. I personally don’t always go by stats for everything. Just the eye test. And I’m sure that rubs people the wrong way. But I don’t knock anybody for pulling up stats and voicing their issues. So please don’t knock me for not pulling up rose injury stats or iq mins played. I watched almost 80 of the 82 games.

But stats in this case can definitely reveal things I may have miss calculated, no doubt. You are 100% correct. No argued here. We just going to agree to disagree and hope thibs proves me wrong. Sorry I don’t have any stats to back up what I’m saying so if you want to ignore my take I’m fine with that. This forum is still the best site to release my Knicks energy so thank you Martin.

I’ve really been unhappy with a lot of our past coaches which makes me become super critical like an abused wife trying to date someone new. Your going to be super critical of every move. But after the dust clears I’m not made at thibs just don’t understand certain decisions and movements. For example:

1. Why bench Kemba so early then play him again. Then sit him for good?
2. Why can’t thibs hold Randle to the same standards as the rooks. One missed shot from Obi and he’s yanked. But others have a longer lease.

Thibs is loved by most players he coached. That speaks volumes about thibs. But I still have my second thoughts on him and I’m now in wait and see mode.

One last thing Nolads….I’m on record saying this very early in the season. We not going anywhere and if we make the playoffs we not winning the first round. So why go through the hassle and end up with the 11th pick. We sucked early on which is why thibs pulled Kemba. The signs was already there. Why lose with the vets when you can lose with the rooks? What does playing Burks do for you? Everybody know who he is how he moves, his impact. So what have we learned? That Burks is not a PG? I could’ve told thibs that without playing him at point. 😂

Your parroting others emotions and yours. You go by "feel". You also forgot all the good thibs did in Chicago and Minny, and his COTY here were it all came together. Instead you ride the frustrations and perhaps want a new coach with new hope.
Its understandable but you can't be going off on emotions and not facts.

Why bench Kemba so early then try again? Maybe he said he felt better, or he did it to satisfy the FO that bought him in. I don't know. Kemba knows Thibs is hard then why he sign here? For that matter, if Thibs ran Drose in the ground, why he come back to Knicks? Thibs did help elevate Drose but he was ROY and Allstar prior this his arrival in ChiTown. Not like he made him. Not like he did with Jimmy Butler. Jimmy worked his ass off and he loved Thibs.
Forget that Randle was allstar and all NBA? That and an extenstion does earn you rights over rooks/yoot. Thats reality. He still hung 20-10. He had mental lapses but he was not a bad defender. What has Obi and IQ earned to get that kind of cred? Not yet at least. Did any knick other than randle look out of sorts this year? If you watched Randle 80 games, how many did he really have the **** face on him? Not all of them.

Larry was out of line a lot but not in theory. He was like "Pro's should act like pro's and come prepared". He the only coach to win an NCAA and NBA chip. He Played at UNC and a nice career in ABA. Dude is enshrined in HOF. Yes, good hire, wrong guy to coach that group and be under Isiah. MDA forget how to coach or have the wrong roster? The latter.

Losing with Rooks vs losing with Vets? So you called it. Good for you. I disagree. Losing with Rooks ruins them. You also lose your locker room. The rooks get messed up and its hard to come back from. Maybe Frank and Knox had some of that by getting too much too early and not succeeding?

LIn was a 4 year college player and bounced around I think Two years before he got to us. MDA plugged him in and he took off. IQ was not having an easy time of it for much of this season.
With all that to discuss, are we not enthralled with RJ and his ascension? 80 games you watched him thats all you got? Curious, did Thibs sort of give games away to develop him or did he actually see as a path to win?
Doe it matter that Grimes got a chance because of injury? Or the fact his number was called and he did in fact rise to the occasion where Deuce, IQ and OBI were slow to? Looked also like when Cam came in Thibs held him to a higher standard than might have been in ATL? You saw when he got playing time after sitting he was doing much better.

Losing with Rooks vs losing with Vets? So you called it. Good for you. I disagree. Losing with Rooks ruins them. You also lose your locker room. The rooks get messed up and its hard to come back from. Maybe Frank and Knox had some of that by getting too much too early and not succeeding?

If you want to talk vets vs rooks, that comment is based on thibs decision to play Burks at point instead of IQ. Not moving deuce into the rotation when rose was out and working his way back. Perfect time to start IQ and bring deuce off the bench.

The move that thibs refused to do was EF to the bench. We had Burks on the bench and he’s a SG/ SF. Plus we are slim at PG so removing Kemba off the roster? Instead of benching him was weird. I don’t care about all the scenarios that probably happened in practice that we don’t know about. Those series of moves wasn’t normal and didn’t seem like it was well thought out. Does that mean he doesn’t deserve to be coy? Hell no so please don’t confuse the two sides.

Then I said during the season, ok maybe iq not ready or don’t mess with chemistry blah….blah….blah. Fine….then move up the next PG who was deuce. It’s like football….2nd string goes down and 3rd string comes in. 3rd goes down then bring in Burks to pitch. Lol. U get my point. Then I said again ok, this is thibs guy….I GET IT. But when it was clear maybe 10 or more games after the Burks experiment was failing and deuce was cooking and rose was out and iQ was either ready to start cause he was killing and deuce was playing good even in spot mins. I don’t look at his stats. I watch him play and his impact on the game. I said this as well with deuce. In the beginning that’s how he will impact games. Once he breaks out of his shell, you will see spurts of his gleague performance at the nba level.

So yes play the yoots and be better prepared for the off season. But we just have to disagree on this point. That’s fair. And I also see your point in teaching yoots to lose or the damage it can have on them. Which is probably why thibs kept the yoot rotation together because they were growing as a unit at the same time. So yes I see your side and still disagree 🤣

And nice try. But Frank and knox are not on the same level as Grimes, IQ, obi or even sims. Not to mention deuce who would lock them both up. So no…can’t compare them. And I like Frank and knox. Still do.