We need to trade Burks and the other veteran guys so Thibs will be forced to play the youngsters and help develop them.

We need to hold Randle accountable when he holds the ball too much and give Toppin more minutes.

We need more spacing and could be more creative with front court lineups.

Will we draft best player available at #11 or do we trade for a veteran since Thibs is unlikely to incorporate more rookies?

(Possible) Solutions

Burks stays as a terrific off the bench reserve but doesn't play as much in the 4th quarters as Thibs learns to trust his young guys

Thibs sits Randle when he doesn't move the ball, push the pace, slow on rotations, doesn't hustle. Thibs could bring Randle off the bench

Thibs would experiment with using more small ball lineups to increase Toppin's minutes and use a combo of Cam and Toppin at the PF spots

These are just a few - and there are many more that should be approached by a collaborative effort - instead of the FO trying to limit Thibs somewhat rigid approach. Thibs deserves a lot of credit but eventually these issues will come to a head and probably result in Thibs getting fired unless FO shifts by making a big trade and veteran push. Probably should have went with Kenny Atkinson and youth...

Thoughts and other examples where it seems like the FO and Thibs differences are negatively impacting our progress?

jskinny35 wrote:A few Examples

We need to trade Burks and the other veteran guys so Thibs will be forced to play the youngsters and help develop them.

We need to hold Randle accountable when he holds the ball too much and give Toppin more minutes.

We need more spacing and could be more creative with front court lineups.

Will we draft best player available at #11 or do we trade for a veteran since Thibs is unlikely to incorporate more rookies?

(Possible) Solutions

Burks stays as a terrific off the bench reserve but doesn't play as much in the 4th quarters as Thibs learns to trust his young guys

Thibs sits Randle when he doesn't move the ball, push the pace, slow on rotations, doesn't hustle. Thibs could bring Randle off the bench

Thibs would experiment with using more small ball lineups to increase Toppin's minutes and use a combo of Cam and Toppin at the PF spots

These are just a few - and there are many more that should be approached by a collaborative effort - instead of the FO trying to limit Thibs somewhat rigid approach. Thibs deserves a lot of credit but eventually these issues will come to a head and probably result in Thibs getting fired unless FO shifts by making a big trade and veteran push. Probably should have went with Kenny Atkinson and youth...

Thoughts and other examples where it seems like the FO and Thibs differences are negatively impacting our progress?

A lot of them not being on the same page is media driven. I understand the reddish deal shows some lack of coordination there, but can’t judge that type of deal right away.

Seems like this forum is divided. Some thinks thibs doesn’t develop the yoots. Others thinks he does. To me this argument is flawed. The real discussion is with the FO and if they believe in thibs. For me if I’m the FO you can’t give thibs any options. He’s already showed you when push comes to shove, he’s calling on rose, taj or Randle. The FO can no longer give this guy a choice.

So some want to argue that he can develop yoots. For me that’s not the argument if he can or cannot. He’s a professional nba coach who helped d.rose win rookie of the year. So obviously he can. Not sure why we continue to have this argument or discussion. But if d.rose had a legit vet that was in front of rose before he joined the bulls, I believe thibs would’ve played the vet over rose or waited til the last min to play him significantly. And rose would not have won ROY. But thibs was forced to play rose. Next season, the FO MUST force thibs to play the yoots. I don’t see any other strategy than that, with one of the younger rosters in the league.

KnickDanger wrote:The myth that Thibs doesn’t develop young players is ridiculous. You’ll read that and later the same person is talking about a “core” of RJ, Mitch, Obi, IQ, Grimes, Sims, McBride……

Sheesh.

Thibs has developed young players before. Rose and Noah are the two biggest examples

His problem is he’s too loyal to veterans he already knows that he’s been in the wars with. Bill Parcells in football had a similar issue

Philc1 wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:The myth that Thibs doesn’t develop young players is ridiculous. You’ll read that and later the same person is talking about a “core” of RJ, Mitch, Obi, IQ, Grimes, Sims, McBride……

Sheesh.

Thibs has developed young players before. Rose and Noah are the two biggest examples

His problem is he’s too loyal to veterans he already knows that he’s been in the wars with. Bill Parcells in football had a similar issue

Who do you feel should have played more? Worth mentioning that, under Thibs, a Rookie (IQ)played considerable minutes. And yet another rookie, Grimes, played good minutes once he proved himself. Obi, who despite showing no more than an occasional crowd pleasing dunk was the backup as a rookie to our best player and a tenured producer.

Think that most that object to the way Thibs handled the yoots should just admit that what they really mean is that Thibs screwed up their dreams of what they thought some of these kids could be on draft night. The dream that these really young players would come in and be considerable difference makers in year one. Understandable since rookie saviors are a popular dream.

Did Deuce really show anything worth giving him more minutes? And I don't mean the G League. Did obi show that he could hit the side of a barn early on? One thing that is surprising is that old timers are the biggest complainers. Odd since it was the norm back in the day that rookies would ride the pine for a couple of years. This despite FOUR years of college.

Let’s look at Obi even he had to come out and take matters to media and call Thibs out for his inconsistent playing time. Thibs is awful at making adjustments because he gets set in his ways. Adjustments just aren’t his strongest attributes. The front office had to intervene to tell him to play the young players.

Nalod wrote:

Vmart wrote:Thibs is a good coach. But he doesn’t trust himself when it comes to young players and looks to vets to cover up his mistakes. He rides them and that is his biggest mistake. Rose may have gotten a MVP under him but he rode him into the ground. He doesn’t know how to incorporate players and create a rotation where you are going 12 deep at least. Last year was an example of he doesn’t have a clue as to how to manage player rotations. You needed a point guard once he lost Rose his crutch he basically lost his marbles. He played Burks at point guard. You have Quickly and McBride but no let’s have Burks play at point guard.

Let’s look at Obi even he had to come out and take matters to media and call Thibs out for his inconsistent playing time. Thibs is awful at making adjustments because he gets set in his ways. Adjustments just aren’t his strongest attributes. The front office had to intervene to tell him to play the young players.

Under coach Vinnie Del negro, DRose was in his second year. Rookie year he avged 37min. year two 36.8min and fist time allstar. Thibs comes year three, and his wins MVP at age 22 avg 37.4 min per game. Lets look at total min.

yr 1 3000 minutes 81 games Coach Vinnie
yr 2 2871 minutes 78 games coach Vinnie
yr 3 3026 minutes 81 games Coach Thibs

32 seconds per game more.

Luol Deng, age 25 avg'd 39min per game.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_totals.html#totals_stats::mp

Lets get some perspective.......

Drose in his MVP season was 9th in total minutes that year.
What about Avg. per game?? 14th. Monta Ellis lead with 40.3, Rudy Gay, 39.9, Aldridge, 39.6.......

So, did Thibs run him in the ground or did it just suck that he blew out?

As For Burks? He was better starting than IQ and Mcbride. I know what I saw. If IQ played well he stayed in the game and finished. If not, Burks came in.
Im not saying Thibs is not inflexible, but there are myths too that are not accurate. OBI had some stinkers also. He was inconsistent.
Also, Randle got his act together and played well down the stretch too.

You weren’t going to win with Burks playing PG. Quickly wasn’t going to get better playing PG unless he got PT. Same with Obi and McBride. You don’t f’ing play Burks when the future is right there in front of him at PG knowing that he would be better off for the future. But he held this ridiculous idea that playoffs were possible if he played Burks. His logic backfired on him he didn’t make the playoffs and he didn’t give the young players the necessary playing time to step into their roles for the up and coming year. When you have a coach who just plays for the moment it’s going to be very hard for him to think about the future.

Vmart wrote:Thibs is a good coach. But he doesn’t trust himself when it comes to young players and looks to vets to cover up his mistakes. He rides them and that is his biggest mistake. Rose may have gotten a MVP under him but he rode him into the ground. He doesn’t know how to incorporate players and create a rotation where you are going 12 deep at least. Last year was an example of he doesn’t have a clue as to how to manage player rotations. You needed a point guard once he lost Rose his crutch he basically lost his marbles. He played Burks at point guard. You have Quickly and McBride but no let’s have Burks play at point guard.

Let’s look at Obi even he had to come out and take matters to media and call Thibs out for his inconsistent playing time. Thibs is awful at making adjustments because he gets set in his ways. Adjustments just aren’t his strongest attributes. The front office had to intervene to tell him to play the young players.

Please go back and look at the schedule and not the record! This season the Knicks schedule was heavily weighted with a ton of easy games in the beginning and two brutal West Coast trips at the end. The Knicks played at basically the same level as last season once Burks started- they won the games they should, played 50/50 against the middle class and were competitive against the good teams.

A quick look at the stats show the majority of the problems came with Kemba in the lineup. Should Thibs have pulled the plug on Kemba after Cole Anthony went for a career high in the garden? I think it's reasonable that if Kemba could "figure it out" enough to not collapse the defense we would have at least gotten into the play in.

Hey, how about Atlanta making it to the ECF last season and having a forgettable season this time at the rodeo? Pretty indicative of the improved play in the East.

Sims was a late second round pick and played more than Taj. You have to explain me this if you want to go on about Thibs being biased towards vets and "his guys".

Vmart wrote:Thaj played 52 games last year. Noel played in 25 only ten Thibs played any young player was when injuries made the decisions for him. Like the case for Grimes he got playing time due to Covid protocols. Or management stepping in to get Reddish playing time.

Thibs was pretty clear at the time that Reddish was traded for a guy outside of the rotation so he wasn't going to bump someone off the court until Reddish had proven himself at practice.

gradyandrew wrote:

Vmart wrote:Thibs is a good coach. But he doesn’t trust himself when it comes to young players and looks to vets to cover up his mistakes. He rides them and that is his biggest mistake. Rose may have gotten a MVP under him but he rode him into the ground. He doesn’t know how to incorporate players and create a rotation where you are going 12 deep at least. Last year was an example of he doesn’t have a clue as to how to manage player rotations. You needed a point guard once he lost Rose his crutch he basically lost his marbles. He played Burks at point guard. You have Quickly and McBride but no let’s have Burks play at point guard.

Let’s look at Obi even he had to come out and take matters to media and call Thibs out for his inconsistent playing time. Thibs is awful at making adjustments because he gets set in his ways. Adjustments just aren’t his strongest attributes. The front office had to intervene to tell him to play the young players.

Please go back and look at the schedule and not the record! This season the Knicks schedule was heavily weighted with a ton of easy games in the beginning and two brutal West Coast trips at the end. The Knicks played at basically the same level as last season once Burks started- they won the games they should, played 50/50 against the middle class and were competitive against the good teams.

A quick look at the stats show the majority of the problems came with Kemba in the lineup. Should Thibs have pulled the plug on Kemba after Cole Anthony went for a career high in the garden? I think it's reasonable that if Kemba could "figure it out" enough to not collapse the defense we would have at least gotten into the play in.

Hey, how about Atlanta making it to the ECF last season and having a forgettable season this time at the rodeo? Pretty indicative of the improved play in the East.

Sims was a late second round pick and played more than Taj. You have to explain me this if you want to go on about Thibs being biased towards vets and "his guys".

Good point. “Respect the timeline”. Seasonal aggregate results don’t tell the whole story. Players are not even thru 82 games.