BRIGGS wrote:I still can’t believe in 2022 that we are witnessing this event.

But it’s come to a pivotal time to STOP with war—- sit down and talk things through. Too much recent talk about using nuclear weapons. No one can win and the world loses. Sit down with Russia TOMORROW and figure out what it will take to stop this war and overall cycle and move on to peace. What’s done is done— we need to get the world back on a plain of peace. If that means half of Ukraine goes back to Russia— so be it

In the future the us who spends more money on weapons that all nations combined Should have never let themselves get behind Russia — find a way to a technology that will stop nuclear weapons from being deployed. Stop war before it can start. And hopefully a new age of human can spawn a new world order of peace with stability
But right now it’s CRUCIAL to get this to an endgame and not advancing it.

BRIGGS wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I still can’t believe in 2022 that we are witnessing this event.

But it’s come to a pivotal time to STOP with war—- sit down and talk things through. Too much recent talk about using nuclear weapons. No one can win and the world loses. Sit down with Russia TOMORROW and figure out what it will take to stop this war and overall cycle and move on to peace. What’s done is done— we need to get the world back on a plain of peace. If that means half of Ukraine goes back to Russia— so be it

In the future the us who spends more money on weapons that all nations combined Should have never let themselves get behind Russia — find a way to a technology that will stop nuclear weapons from being deployed. Stop war before it can start. And hopefully a new age of human can spawn a new world order of peace with stability
But right now it’s CRUCIAL to get this to an endgame and not advancing it.

Sure whatever it takes..why not all of Ukraine reparations for Russian loses, sacrifice the Baltic NATO States and maybe throw in Alaska just to sweeten the pot? It worked out well in the 1940s it will work today. Rewarding Russia for mass atrocities and unprovoked invasion will surely stop them from ever doing that again. Then again your orange saviour gets in all this may happen for you.

Nothing we can do about it. Whats in the worlds best interest? Expansion of war or alleviation? Some kind of common ground needs to be found. 2020 is not 1940 its a scarier world now. Its the best and only move

Hiroshima and Nagasaki say hello. If Hitler had thrown all the resources he expended on the Holocaust at developing atomic weapons...? World was scary back then too.

I doubt seriously that even the Cheetoh could negotiate with a psychotic maniac who's now trying to rebuild the Soviet Union by conventional force.
Give Putin half of Ukraine. So nice of you BRIGGS. Suppose they want to throw in your section of Connecticut too, that fine with you as well?

By the way, who's actually going to be doing these best and only moves you're proposing? The clown show that's in office right now busying themselves with trying to save Twitter from that other crazy billionaire?

NYKBocker wrote:Anybody ask Ukrainians yet if they are OK giving half of their country to Russia?

We gotta slunk out. Part of ukraine is the price. The next level price is way above that. Play a long game here. Lose the battle here--win the war. Let young Russians and Americans decide 20-40 years from now

BRIGGS wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Anybody ask Ukrainians yet if they are OK giving half of their country to Russia?

We gotta slunk out. Part of ukraine is the price. The next level price is way above that. Play a long game here. Lose the battle here--win the war. Let young Russians and Americans decide 20-40 years from now

Your thoughts, Briggs, are well intentioned, but I am afraid this is not how things work in this situation. Putin is an obdurate sociopathic tyrant whose only preoccupation is to keep his grip on power and cement his image in history as that of a great and powerful leader. Ukraine agreeing to his demands will not placate him or the broader Russian populace - they are too high on militaristic frenzy right now. In fact, giving in will only embolden them by proving that their approach of bullying, harrassing and physically destroying opponents works. Think back to Hitler at the outcome of the Munich agreements, appeasing him only made things worse. And Putin is even more dangerous, because he holds the nuclear button.

So the West is following the only course possible: do not give in, but also do not engage in open military confrontation, and rather help Ukraine by supplying it modern weapons and slowly suffocating Russia economically, to severely impair Russia's ability to wage war. Not great, but I do not see any other way.

I used to hope that in 20 years young Russians would reject the ideology of wounded imperial pride as being destructive to their country and their future. They are certainly in a different place mentally than the older generation, which desperately clings to vestiges of former "greatness". But Putin has now fixed up the young people too by making them complicit in the ongoing criminal war against a neighboring state. I fear that we Russians have no way of disentangling ourselves from this complicity, at least not during my lifetime. Everything I hoped for as a young man in the late 1980s/early 1990s, which was for a free, peaceful, virtuous and prosperous Russia that is an integral part of the global community, it has all come crashing down, with my generation having nothing to look forward to any more. The time for the long game has run out.

ESOMKnicks wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Anybody ask Ukrainians yet if they are OK giving half of their country to Russia?

We gotta slunk out. Part of ukraine is the price. The next level price is way above that. Play a long game here. Lose the battle here--win the war. Let young Russians and Americans decide 20-40 years from now

Your thoughts, Briggs, are well intentioned, but I am afraid this is not how things work in this situation. Putin is an obdurate sociopathic tyrant whose only preoccupation is to keep his grip on power and cement his image in history as that of a great and powerful leader. Ukraine agreeing to his demands will not placate him or the broader Russian populace - they are too high on militaristic frenzy right now. In fact, giving in will only embolden them by proving that their approach of bullying, harrassing and physically destroying opponents works. Think back to Hitler at the outcome of the Munich agreements, appeasing him only made things worse. And Putin is even more dangerous, because he holds the nuclear button.

So the West is following the only course possible: do not give in, but also do not engage in open military confrontation, and rather help Ukraine by supplying it modern weapons and slowly suffocating Russia economically, to severely impair Russia's ability to wage war. Not great, but I do not see any other way.

I used to hope that in 20 years young Russians would reject the ideology of wounded imperial pride as being destructive to their country and their future. They are certainly in a different place mentally than the older generation, which desperately clings to vestiges of former "greatness". But Putin has now fixed up the young people too by making them complicit in the ongoing criminal war against a neighboring state. I fear that we Russians have no way of disentangling ourselves from this complicity, at least not during my lifetime. Everything I hoped for as a young man in the late 1980s/early 1990s, which was for a free, peaceful, virtuous and prosperous Russia that is an integral part of the global community, it has all come crashing down, with my generation having nothing to look forward to any more. The time for the long game has run out.

Thanks for the perspective.

ESOMKnicks wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Anybody ask Ukrainians yet if they are OK giving half of their country to Russia?

We gotta slunk out. Part of ukraine is the price. The next level price is way above that. Play a long game here. Lose the battle here--win the war. Let young Russians and Americans decide 20-40 years from now

Your thoughts, Briggs, are well intentioned, but I am afraid this is not how things work in this situation. Putin is an obdurate sociopathic tyrant whose only preoccupation is to keep his grip on power and cement his image in history as that of a great and powerful leader. Ukraine agreeing to his demands will not placate him or the broader Russian populace - they are too high on militaristic frenzy right now. In fact, giving in will only embolden them by proving that their approach of bullying, harrassing and physically destroying opponents works. Think back to Hitler at the outcome of the Munich agreements, appeasing him only made things worse. And Putin is even more dangerous, because he holds the nuclear button.

So the West is following the only course possible: do not give in, but also do not engage in open military confrontation, and rather help Ukraine by supplying it modern weapons and slowly suffocating Russia economically, to severely impair Russia's ability to wage war. Not great, but I do not see any other way.

I used to hope that in 20 years young Russians would reject the ideology of wounded imperial pride as being destructive to their country and their future. They are certainly in a different place mentally than the older generation, which desperately clings to vestiges of former "greatness". But Putin has now fixed up the young people too by making them complicit in the ongoing criminal war against a neighboring state. I fear that we Russians have no way of disentangling ourselves from this complicity, at least not during my lifetime. Everything I hoped for as a young man in the late 1980s/early 1990s, which was for a free, peaceful, virtuous and prosperous Russia that is an integral part of the global community, it has all come crashing down, with my generation having nothing to look forward to any more. The time for the long game has run out.

Putin will be dead/ out of power in much less than 10 years. I hate to say it but we gotta wait him out. I could think of many things that would help engage Ukraine BUT what could be the cost? If u say nuclear bomb shot at Ny Miami La wherever— than anything we stood for is over.at some point in time Russian occupation of parcels of Ukraine would end. If that is the cost of maneuvering around nuclear confrontation it’s a no brainer. Sometimes losing is winning. Winning here unfortunately is giving into some negotiated demands. Don’t poke a bear.

ESOMKnicks wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Anybody ask Ukrainians yet if they are OK giving half of their country to Russia?

We gotta slunk out. Part of ukraine is the price. The next level price is way above that. Play a long game here. Lose the battle here--win the war. Let young Russians and Americans decide 20-40 years from now

Your thoughts, Briggs, are well intentioned, but I am afraid this is not how things work in this situation. Putin is an obdurate sociopathic tyrant whose only preoccupation is to keep his grip on power and cement his image in history as that of a great and powerful leader. Ukraine agreeing to his demands will not placate him or the broader Russian populace - they are too high on militaristic frenzy right now. In fact, giving in will only embolden them by proving that their approach of bullying, harrassing and physically destroying opponents works. Think back to Hitler at the outcome of the Munich agreements, appeasing him only made things worse. And Putin is even more dangerous, because he holds the nuclear button.

So the West is following the only course possible: do not give in, but also do not engage in open military confrontation, and rather help Ukraine by supplying it modern weapons and slowly suffocating Russia economically, to severely impair Russia's ability to wage war. Not great, but I do not see any other way.

I used to hope that in 20 years young Russians would reject the ideology of wounded imperial pride as being destructive to their country and their future. They are certainly in a different place mentally than the older generation, which desperately clings to vestiges of former "greatness". But Putin has now fixed up the young people too by making them complicit in the ongoing criminal war against a neighboring state. I fear that we Russians have no way of disentangling ourselves from this complicity, at least not during my lifetime. Everything I hoped for as a young man in the late 1980s/early 1990s, which was for a free, peaceful, virtuous and prosperous Russia that is an integral part of the global community, it has all come crashing down, with my generation having nothing to look forward to any more. The time for the long game has run out.

The West had a golden opportunity to help Russia in the 90's but dropped the ball. Jeffrey Sachs pushed overnight liberalization of the economy that led to today's crony capitalism and also wiped out the savings of the older generation when the financial crisis hit in 1997. Putin was a savior when brought in by Yeltsin and was able to provide stability. The first hint should have been when Putin became prime minister when he should have retired. Plenty of ways for the West to have protested then but the 'war on terror' in Iraq sucked all of the oxygen out of the room. But hey, McDonald's somehow got 10% of its revenue out of Russia so I guess there were some benefits to continuing to do business there. I thought the US should have welcomed Russia into NATO sometime in 2002 since everyone was on the same page in fighting radical Islam. Unfortunately, that would have eventually resulted in lower defense spending so better to keep that bogeyman available to justify continued purchases of weapons systems.