Vmart wrote:This team is missing a glue guy. The player that sacrifices his stats for the good of the team. This player is usually in the mold of Draymond Green, Ben Simmons, Lonzo Ball, every team has this guy that plays defense, makes the pass and doesn’t need the shots. Every good team has one of these guys. That’s right you pick a good team and you can name their one guy who sacrifices for the betterment of the team. Once the Knicks find that guy to go with their starters that is when it gets better for them.

Agree. Just brought this up on another thread. Think Bullock's defense (the reason why Thibs started him) was underrated. And yes, as crazy as it sounds, maybe Payton's defense. (Cue PhilC busting a vein). However, we will do as our best player does. Unfortunately, Randle has not played as well this year.

martin wrote:Glue guy? Knicks need a PG

Is it a pg we need or is it Thibs offensive system?

I'll agree, we need a pg in the worst way - I wanted Ball for that reason. I'd be happy with Langston Galloway, Emmanuel Mudiay, Trey Burke. Even Ron Baker.

I still think we have to give Kemba another shot - we just have to pair him with IQ, Fournier, RJ & Randle.

And Randle was the glue guy in many ways last year. He is the guy that holds everything together. I believe he can get back to preforming at a high level.

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:Glue guy? Knicks need a PG

Is it a pg we need or is it Thibs offensive system?

I'll agree, we need a pg in the worst way - I wanted Ball for that reason. I'd be happy with Langston Galloway, Emmanuel Mudiay, Trey Burke. Even Ron Baker.

I still think we have to give Kemba another shot - we just have to pair him with IQ, Fournier, RJ & Randle.

And Randle was the glue guy in many ways last year. He is the guy that holds everything together. I believe he can get back to preforming at a high level.

Is it the offensive system or is it the lack of certain parts to have a complete system?

I don't know.

I've said this before- MDA got great offensive production out of players like Chris Duhon and Landry Fields.

So part of me wants to say Thibs should be able to get more out of this group. We have seen them play better for stretches (usually the bench and when Randle is on the bench).

Benching Walker and starting Burks as the PG reminds me of Fizdale starting was it Trier as the PG?

I don't think he needs to go Larry Brown on the starting line ups- but he seems he is overly hesitant to make moves that other coaches might.

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:Glue guy? Knicks need a PG

Is it a pg we need or is it Thibs offensive system?

I'll agree, we need a pg in the worst way - I wanted Ball for that reason. I'd be happy with Langston Galloway, Emmanuel Mudiay, Trey Burke. Even Ron Baker.

I still think we have to give Kemba another shot - we just have to pair him with IQ, Fournier, RJ & Randle.

And Randle was the glue guy in many ways last year. He is the guy that holds everything together. I believe he can get back to preforming at a high level.

Is it the offensive system or is it the lack of certain parts to have a complete system?

I don't know.

I've said this before- MDA got great offensive production out of players like Chris Duhon and Landry Fields.

So part of me wants to say Thibs should be able to get more out of this group. We have seen them play better for stretches (usually the bench and when Randle is on the bench).

Benching Walker and starting Burks as the PG reminds me of Fizdale starting was it Trier as the PG?

I don't think he needs to go Larry Brown on the starting line ups- but he seems he is overly hesitant to make moves that other coaches might.

Thibs just got Randle to play near MVP level, or at least get passing consideration for it. Not just one 22 assist game like MDA got out of Duhon, he got a historic season from Randle.

He got 4 mid level 3pt shooters to all average more than 40%.

He got Rose turned the f around as a backup PG.

Thibs also took a 21-45 team to the 4th seed.

Can we put to rest that Thibs is clueless in this area?

and as soon as Randle started playing in front of fans, that went away.

The FO gave him more offensive tools, he doesn't use them.

I don't think we can put anything to rest with as poor as we have been playing.

Thibs has a reputation as a defensive, grind it out kind of guy.

Found this on the google- I think it's relevant:

https://theknickswall.com/how-tom-thibodeau-can-avoid-knicks-one-hit-wonder-distinction/

Off-ball movement on offense

Funny enough, if you just glanced at the numbers and formed your opinion on them alone, you’d think the Knicks were moving plenty. R.J. Barrett (14,105.3 feet) and Julius Randle (13,982.9) both ranked inside the league’s top 10 for total distance traveled. The next Knick on the list, though? Reggie Bullock, with 11,699.9 feet in total. And after him, it’s Mitchell Robinson (10,494 feet), who literally played less than half of last season, for what it’s worth.

It’s worth a lot, actually. It gives us a window into one of the team’s biggest issues, something they seriously need to nip in the bud moving forward: they don’t move. Aside from Barrett and Randle, the team operated in a stationary position. That Robinson can miss half the season and move close to 1,000 more feet than, say, Elfrid Payton (while only playing four more minutes per game, mind you) feels disastrous. Holy calamity, indeed.

Now, Second Spectrum doesn’t split their measurements by whether a player is on the ball or off it. That’s where touches come into play. Randle was fourth in the league with 5,936 in total. The next Knick? Barrett, obviously, with 3,414. Sure, Randle was the team’s primary scorer and creator. But for him to be positioned, at times, as the only scorer and creator? That won’t work.

To keep it simple, the off-ball Knicks need to fly around more. That’s how my high school coach always put it; I’m sure Spadoni won’t mind if Thibodeau steals his lingo. He always pushed us to keep moving if the ball wasn’t in our hands, if we weren’t the man concerned with directing traffic. This isn’t necessarily something you see a lot of in the NBA—these guys are pros, and have been grandfathered into perpetual laziness—but for the Knicks to succeed long-term, this will be crucial to implement.

The absence of a true point guard last season (a void now filled by Kemba Walker) and/or a second consistent shot-creator (Walker; Evan Fournier, even more so) didn’t help. So, now that they’re on board, this change should be natural. If it isn’t, a plug of some kind is going to get pulled.

That was before the season started and the analysis of last year. So fluid, movement offense is not what Thibs ran last year.

I've said this before - we got career years out of a bunch of players - we should have sold some of them (like Randle) high.

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:Glue guy? Knicks need a PG

Is it a pg we need or is it Thibs offensive system?

I'll agree, we need a pg in the worst way - I wanted Ball for that reason. I'd be happy with Langston Galloway, Emmanuel Mudiay, Trey Burke. Even Ron Baker.

I still think we have to give Kemba another shot - we just have to pair him with IQ, Fournier, RJ & Randle.

And Randle was the glue guy in many ways last year. He is the guy that holds everything together. I believe he can get back to preforming at a high level.

Is it the offensive system or is it the lack of certain parts to have a complete system?

I don't know.

I've said this before- MDA got great offensive production out of players like Chris Duhon and Landry Fields.

So part of me wants to say Thibs should be able to get more out of this group. We have seen them play better for stretches (usually the bench and when Randle is on the bench).

Benching Walker and starting Burks as the PG reminds me of Fizdale starting was it Trier as the PG?

I don't think he needs to go Larry Brown on the starting line ups- but he seems he is overly hesitant to make moves that other coaches might.

Thibs just got Randle to play near MVP level, or at least get passing consideration for it. Not just one 22 assist game like MDA got out of Duhon, he got a historic season from Randle.

He got 4 mid level 3pt shooters to all average more than 40%.

He got Rose turned the f around as a backup PG.

Thibs also took a 21-45 team to the 4th seed.

Can we put to rest that Thibs is clueless in this area?

and as soon as Randle started playing in front of fans, that went away.

The FO gave him more offensive tools, he doesn't use them.

Obi is bursting at the seems, gets easy baskets, Thibs won't play him. He should have played the entire second half. Randle would have played the entire second half.

I don't think we can put anything to rest with as poor as we have been playing.

Thibs has a reputation as a defensive, grind it out kind of guy.

Found this on the google- I think it's relevant:

https://theknickswall.com/how-tom-thibodeau-can-avoid-knicks-one-hit-wonder-distinction/

Off-ball movement on offense

Funny enough, if you just glanced at the numbers and formed your opinion on them alone, you’d think the Knicks were moving plenty. R.J. Barrett (14,105.3 feet) and Julius Randle (13,982.9) both ranked inside the league’s top 10 for total distance traveled. The next Knick on the list, though? Reggie Bullock, with 11,699.9 feet in total. And after him, it’s Mitchell Robinson (10,494 feet), who literally played less than half of last season, for what it’s worth.

It’s worth a lot, actually. It gives us a window into one of the team’s biggest issues, something they seriously need to nip in the bud moving forward: they don’t move. Aside from Barrett and Randle, the team operated in a stationary position. That Robinson can miss half the season and move close to 1,000 more feet than, say, Elfrid Payton (while only playing four more minutes per game, mind you) feels disastrous. Holy calamity, indeed.

Now, Second Spectrum doesn’t split their measurements by whether a player is on the ball or off it. That’s where touches come into play. Randle was fourth in the league with 5,936 in total. The next Knick? Barrett, obviously, with 3,414. Sure, Randle was the team’s primary scorer and creator. But for him to be positioned, at times, as the only scorer and creator? That won’t work.

To keep it simple, the off-ball Knicks need to fly around more. That’s how my high school coach always put it; I’m sure Spadoni won’t mind if Thibodeau steals his lingo. He always pushed us to keep moving if the ball wasn’t in our hands, if we weren’t the man concerned with directing traffic. This isn’t necessarily something you see a lot of in the NBA—these guys are pros, and have been grandfathered into perpetual laziness—but for the Knicks to succeed long-term, this will be crucial to implement.

The absence of a true point guard last season (a void now filled by Kemba Walker) and/or a second consistent shot-creator (Walker; Evan Fournier, even more so) didn’t help. So, now that they’re on board, this change should be natural. If it isn’t, a plug of some kind is going to get pulled.

That was before the season started and the analysis of last year. So fluid, movement offense is not what Thibs ran last year.

I've said this before - we got career years out of a bunch of players - we should have sold some of them (like Randle) high.

Preaching to the choir bro I said to trade Randle after the hawks series

We are now locked into long term deals for several not great players

Nalod wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:We had a glue guy - Bullock. Now we don’t really have a guy that does the important dirty work. Bullock was great, played spirited defense, only wanted the ball when he was open

His legacy magnifies with each loss.
We assume that reggie and Elf here would still accomplish what happend last year as a given?
So many variables to consider.

Well this is what we had always said about the Knicks. How long do they go and fall for names like Kemba and Fournier. They miss out in the targets and go for lower tier names. These are not players that were going to put the Knicks over the top much-less replicate last season. I understand the Kenna pick up as he was pennies on the dollar, but Fournier mand what was Leon smoking a perennial loser who has defensive lapses. That was just opposite what the team identity was. Once you start screwing with your identity good thing will not happen. Especially if you can’t improve in the identity. Which is Defense first.

That's the glue.