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Kemba vs Elf
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NYStateOfMind
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11/27/2021  10:14 AM
Unfortunately, this upgrade has been a major downgrade. Elf played 63 games last year for a team worse +/- of -97, Kemba in just 18 games is a team worse -122. Pts Kemba 11.7 to 10.1, assists 3.1 to 3.2, rebounds 2.6 to 3.2, FG/3PT% 42.9/41.3% to 43.2/28.6%, even Elf slightly got to the line more often. Other than the 3PT%, Elf had the better stats in every other category while not scoring less and destabilizing the starting defense. Kemba can back home and is motivated and yet these are the results so far. Big shocker to me.

Let's go Knicks. People wanted some McBride time, well Kemba & Rose might not play against the ATL.
AUTOADVERT
Philc1
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11/27/2021  10:14 AM
Elf looked amazing on the bench in his warmup suit last night
NYStateOfMind
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11/27/2021  10:15 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/27/2021  10:17 AM
Philc1 wrote:Elf looked amazing on the bench in his warmup suit last night

Still did better than Kemba. Elf +/- of 0 and Kemba -13. A rare addition by subtraction scenario.
Nalod
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11/27/2021  10:37 AM
Simple minds offer simple thoughts and one liners.
Elf looked great on the bench. Lets put this in perspective, Elf started 63 games of 72 and with all the goodness of Randle, thibs, etc, was good enough to help the team win 10 games over .500 and the 4th seed. Now he sits as 3rd string on a chip contending team.
shows how far was still have to go and how good PHX is. Simple mind thinks him on the bench elevates us. Nope.
No reason to **** on Elf. We got beat by a very superior team last night.

Also their second unit was awesome. So is ours. Watching other teams is a revelation sometimes.

Elf was bought here to be the back up. In two years nobody could outplay him until Rose hit his stride and one started and the other finished. Was ELF the reason we won last year? Not really, but he did not hurt us. He was good enough.
Kemba is an issue for us that needs to be solved. I can’t say what it is but my hope is we figure it out.

I know most of us are disappointed thus far. Its Legit. Elf is not the answer, but he was not the problem either.
Philc1
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11/27/2021  11:25 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/27/2021  11:29 AM
NYStateOfMind wrote:
Philc1 wrote:Elf looked amazing on the bench in his warmup suit last night

Still did better than Kemba. Elf +/- of 0 and Kemba -13. A rare addition by subtraction scenario.

Nalod wrote:Simple minds offer simple thoughts and one liners.
Elf looked great on the bench. Lets put this in perspective, Elf started 63 games of 72 and with all the goodness of Randle, thibs, etc, was good enough to help the team win 10 games over .500 and the 4th seed. Now he sits as 3rd string on a chip contending team.
shows how far was still have to go and how good PHX is. Simple mind thinks him on the bench elevates us. Nope.
No reason to **** on Elf. We got beat by a very superior team last night.

Also their second unit was awesome. So is ours. Watching other teams is a revelation sometimes.

Elf was bought here to be the back up. In two years nobody could outplay him until Rose hit his stride and one started and the other finished. Was ELF the reason we won last year? Not really, but he did not hurt us. He was good enough.
Kemba is an issue for us that needs to be solved. I can’t say what it is but my hope is we figure it out.

I know most of us are disappointed thus far. Its Legit. Elf is not the answer, but he was not the problem either.


Elf blows. He and DSJ will look great in China together in 2 years

No one outside of this messageboard thinks Elfrid Payton is anything other than a borderline 12th man
NYStateOfMind
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11/27/2021  11:39 AM
The point of the thread is Kemba has been even worse but was supposed to be a big upgrade. Not that Elf was great nor of starter quality.
Philc1
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11/27/2021  11:42 AM
NYStateOfMind wrote:The point of the thread is Kemba has been even worse but was supposed to be a big upgrade. Not that Elf was great nor of starter quality.

Whoever said he was a “great upgrade?”

We were getting Kemba on the cheap because 2 separate teams had just dumped him. He is a better player than Elf. This is a team whose talent is hovering around .500.
Knixkik
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11/27/2021  12:35 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/27/2021  12:35 PM
NYStateOfMind wrote:The point of the thread is Kemba has been even worse but was supposed to be a big upgrade. Not that Elf was great nor of starter quality.

I agree that Kemba was a 20 ppg guy. There’s been a huge falloff. I’m hoping it’s more of a maintenance issue though and he will get better as the season progresses. Hopefully.
HofstraBBall
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11/27/2021  12:42 PM
Philc1 wrote:Elf looked amazing on the bench in his warmup suit last night

Kemba > Elf
Elf > Frankie.

Ball don't lie nor does large sample sizes.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
HofstraBBall
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11/27/2021  12:42 PM
Nalod wrote:Simple minds offer simple thoughts and one liners.
Elf looked great on the bench. Lets put this in perspective, Elf started 63 games of 72 and with all the goodness of Randle, thibs, etc, was good enough to help the team win 10 games over .500 and the 4th seed. Now he sits as 3rd string on a chip contending team.
shows how far was still have to go and how good PHX is. Simple mind thinks him on the bench elevates us. Nope.
No reason to **** on Elf. We got beat by a very superior team last night.

Also their second unit was awesome. So is ours. Watching other teams is a revelation sometimes.

Elf was bought here to be the back up. In two years nobody could outplay him until Rose hit his stride and one started and the other finished. Was ELF the reason we won last year? Not really, but he did not hurt us. He was good enough.
Kemba is an issue for us that needs to be solved. I can’t say what it is but my hope is we figure it out.

I know most of us are disappointed thus far. Its Legit. Elf is not the answer, but he was not the problem either.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
Nalod
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11/27/2021  1:15 PM
Philc1 wrote:
NYStateOfMind wrote:
Philc1 wrote:Elf looked amazing on the bench in his warmup suit last night

Still did better than Kemba. Elf +/- of 0 and Kemba -13. A rare addition by subtraction scenario.

Nalod wrote:Simple minds offer simple thoughts and one liners.
Elf looked great on the bench. Lets put this in perspective, Elf started 63 games of 72 and with all the goodness of Randle, thibs, etc, was good enough to help the team win 10 games over .500 and the 4th seed. Now he sits as 3rd string on a chip contending team.
shows how far was still have to go and how good PHX is. Simple mind thinks him on the bench elevates us. Nope.
No reason to **** on Elf. We got beat by a very superior team last night.

Also their second unit was awesome. So is ours. Watching other teams is a revelation sometimes.

Elf was bought here to be the back up. In two years nobody could outplay him until Rose hit his stride and one started and the other finished. Was ELF the reason we won last year? Not really, but he did not hurt us. He was good enough.
Kemba is an issue for us that needs to be solved. I can’t say what it is but my hope is we figure it out.

I know most of us are disappointed thus far. Its Legit. Elf is not the answer, but he was not the problem either.


Elf blows. He and DSJ will look great in China together in 2 years

No one outside of this messageboard thinks Elfrid Payton is anything other than a borderline 12th man


OMG, what is wrong with you? Nobody is talking up Elf.
Nobody said Elf is more than a back up.
Philc1
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11/27/2021  3:03 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
Philc1 wrote:Elf looked amazing on the bench in his warmup suit last night

Kemba > Elf
Elf > Frankie.

Ball don't lie nor does large sample sizes.

Well Frankie is actually getting playing time this season while Elf rots on the bench even during garbage time facing us
BigDaddyG
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11/27/2021  3:20 PM
NYStateOfMind wrote:Unfortunately, this upgrade has been a major downgrade. Elf played 63 games last year for a team worse +/- of -97, Kemba in just 18 games is a team worse -122. Pts Kemba 11.7 to 10.1, assists 3.1 to 3.2, rebounds 2.6 to 3.2, FG/3PT% 42.9/41.3% to 43.2/28.6%, even Elf slightly got to the line more often. Other than the 3PT%, Elf had the better stats in every other category while not scoring less and destabilizing the starting defense. Kemba can back home and is motivated and yet these are the results so far. Big shocker to me.

Let's go Knicks. People wanted some McBride time, well Kemba & Rose might not play against the ATL.


https://stathead.com/tiny/Mx26S
When you do per 36 mins, none of Elfrid's offensive advantages don't hold up. Same when you look at some other advanced stats like PER and TS%. Something is definitely wrong with chemistry and I won't deny Elfrid is a better defender. But I think better comparisons would come from Randle and RJs stats compared to last year.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
ToddTT
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11/27/2021  3:38 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/27/2021  3:39 PM
There have been many times this season where I’d put Elf in over Kemba. Well, the Elf we had before his mid-season meltdown.

If we’re desperate for buckets, it’s great having Kemba as an option. But as a starting PG his defense is not what I want or expect as a Knicks fan.

I hope our next solution at starting PG is closer to 6’4”, and a demon on defense. And capable of alley ooping all day long. We should get SO MANY easy buckets with Obi/Mitch/RJ/Noel.

Oh good lord... https://www.youtube.com/shorts/XkmGrX7O0lQ
Uptown
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11/27/2021  4:13 PM
Why argue about who is better between a 3rd string pg and a lead guard that is damaged goods? We have a lead guard coming off the bench that is performing better than both of them. So the question is, when or will Thibs move IQ into the starting unit?

NYStateOfMind
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11/27/2021  5:19 PM
Philc1 wrote:
NYStateOfMind wrote:The point of the thread is Kemba has been even worse but was supposed to be a big upgrade. Not that Elf was great nor of starter quality.

Whoever said he was a “great upgrade?”

We were getting Kemba on the cheap because 2 separate teams had just dumped him. He is a better player than Elf. This is a team whose talent is hovering around .500.

I don't see anyone saying a great upgrade, but Kemba was bought in to be an upgrade and the fans expected him to be one. Yet, he has been worse than Elf this season so far. I don't want either on my starting unit and have many options I prefer over them in a 2nd unit, like Rubio or Shroder.

Also, it is hard to compare Randle & RJs numbers to last year when the starting defense is a lot worse.
HofstraBBall
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11/27/2021  10:26 PM
NYStateOfMind wrote:
Philc1 wrote:
NYStateOfMind wrote:The point of the thread is Kemba has been even worse but was supposed to be a big upgrade. Not that Elf was great nor of starter quality.

Whoever said he was a “great upgrade?”

We were getting Kemba on the cheap because 2 separate teams had just dumped him. He is a better player than Elf. This is a team whose talent is hovering around .500.

I don't see anyone saying a great upgrade, but Kemba was bought in to be an upgrade and the fans expected him to be one. Yet, he has been worse than Elf this season so far. I don't want either on my starting unit and have many options I prefer over them in a 2nd unit, like Rubio or Shroder.

Also, it is hard to compare Randle & RJs numbers to last year when the starting defense is a lot worse.

Do not see how fans forget so quickly. How many times have we complained about not having PG that can't shoot a three? Yet you want to go back to a PG that can't shoot from three?
Despite Walker having a tough time of late. He started with one of the highest three-point percentages in the league. He is still shooting 41% despite the lack of confidence given and the number of minutes per game slotted to him. Assuming you have seen Rubio throughout his 11-year career? So there is that. Shroeder at 32%. Would love to see playoff defenses doubling down on Randle because Shroeder cant hit a three. Fans are so quick to forget and so quick to want to give up on guys. Walker is an elite scorer. His value is in the playoffs when those types of players will change a series. Can't say the same for Ricky Freakin Rubio. smh. Goal needs to be to get these additions comfortable and playing well together. And NO, Grimes. Simms and Mcbribe are not the answer in a tough playoff match-up.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
HofstraBBall
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11/27/2021  10:30 PM
Philc1 wrote:
NYStateOfMind wrote:
Philc1 wrote:Elf looked amazing on the bench in his warmup suit last night

Still did better than Kemba. Elf +/- of 0 and Kemba -13. A rare addition by subtraction scenario.

Nalod wrote:Simple minds offer simple thoughts and one liners.
Elf looked great on the bench. Lets put this in perspective, Elf started 63 games of 72 and with all the goodness of Randle, thibs, etc, was good enough to help the team win 10 games over .500 and the 4th seed. Now he sits as 3rd string on a chip contending team.
shows how far was still have to go and how good PHX is. Simple mind thinks him on the bench elevates us. Nope.
No reason to **** on Elf. We got beat by a very superior team last night.

Also their second unit was awesome. So is ours. Watching other teams is a revelation sometimes.

Elf was bought here to be the back up. In two years nobody could outplay him until Rose hit his stride and one started and the other finished. Was ELF the reason we won last year? Not really, but he did not hurt us. He was good enough.
Kemba is an issue for us that needs to be solved. I can’t say what it is but my hope is we figure it out.

I know most of us are disappointed thus far. Its Legit. Elf is not the answer, but he was not the problem either.


Elf blows. He and DSJ will look great in China together in 2 years

No one outside of this messageboard thinks Elfrid Payton is anything other than a borderline 12th man

Elf is not Frankie!! Meaning that Frankie would never end up in China. France definitely!
Btw. IT IS A FACT that ELF was better than Frank or any other PG we have had or have based on winning percentage. No matter what you say, Elf led the team to a better record in many years.
You can claim what you want but that is the reality.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
NYStateOfMind
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11/27/2021  10:35 PM
No one said nor wants ELF back!

HofstraBBall wrote:
NYStateOfMind wrote:
Philc1 wrote:
NYStateOfMind wrote:The point of the thread is Kemba has been even worse but was supposed to be a big upgrade. Not that Elf was great nor of starter quality.

Whoever said he was a “great upgrade?”

We were getting Kemba on the cheap because 2 separate teams had just dumped him. He is a better player than Elf. This is a team whose talent is hovering around .500.

I don't see anyone saying a great upgrade, but Kemba was bought in to be an upgrade and the fans expected him to be one. Yet, he has been worse than Elf this season so far. I don't want either on my starting unit and have many options I prefer over them in a 2nd unit, like Rubio or Shroder.

Also, it is hard to compare Randle & RJs numbers to last year when the starting defense is a lot worse.

Do not see how fans forget so quickly. How many times have we complained about not having PG that can't shoot a three? Yet you want to go back to a PG that can't shoot from three?
Despite Walker having a tough time of late. He started with one of the highest three-point percentages in the league. He is still shooting 41% despite the lack of confidence given and the number of minutes per game slotted to him. Assuming you have seen Rubio throughout his 11-year career? So there is that. Shroeder at 32%. Would love to see playoff defenses doubling down on Randle because Shroeder cant hit a three. Fans are so quick to forget and so quick to want to give up on guys. Walker is an elite scorer. His value is in the playoffs when those types of players will change a series. Can't say the same for Ricky Freakin Rubio. smh. Goal needs to be to get these additions comfortable and playing well together. And NO, Grimes. Simms and Mcbribe are not the answer in a tough playoff match-up.
HofstraBBall
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11/27/2021  10:38 PM
Philc1 wrote:
NYStateOfMind wrote:
Philc1 wrote:Elf looked amazing on the bench in his warmup suit last night

Still did better than Kemba. Elf +/- of 0 and Kemba -13. A rare addition by subtraction scenario.

Nalod wrote:Simple minds offer simple thoughts and one liners.
Elf looked great on the bench. Lets put this in perspective, Elf started 63 games of 72 and with all the goodness of Randle, thibs, etc, was good enough to help the team win 10 games over .500 and the 4th seed. Now he sits as 3rd string on a chip contending team.
shows how far was still have to go and how good PHX is. Simple mind thinks him on the bench elevates us. Nope.
No reason to **** on Elf. We got beat by a very superior team last night.

Also their second unit was awesome. So is ours. Watching other teams is a revelation sometimes.

Elf was bought here to be the back up. In two years nobody could outplay him until Rose hit his stride and one started and the other finished. Was ELF the reason we won last year? Not really, but he did not hurt us. He was good enough.
Kemba is an issue for us that needs to be solved. I can’t say what it is but my hope is we figure it out.

I know most of us are disappointed thus far. Its Legit. Elf is not the answer, but he was not the problem either.


Elf blows. He and DSJ will look great in China together in 2 years

No one outside of this messageboard thinks Elfrid Payton is anything other than a borderline 12th man

Elf has the record for being our best PG since 2014. Them are the facts! No matter how you try to erase them. For instance, let's say we compare him to hmmm I don't know, Frank, his winning percentage is like 3000% better. Think Elf will always have a home in the NBA. Decent defense and can run an offense. Frankie may as well due to his defense, unless he gets tired of riding the third-string PG role. DSJR will probably be in China. Do not think anyone is claiming Elf should have been kept. Just pointing out that he was not as bad as some may claim.
Still confident that Kemba will fit in and makes us better.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
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