Randle, Mitch, #19 for Andrew Wiggins, Wiseman, #7, #14

Knicks do this to fully reset around a young team and upgrade talent pool. Must swallow 2 years of Wiggins contract ($31.5M, $33.5M). FO and Brock love it, Thibs will steam at a young team but the coaching staff overall will step up to push and hone a team of listson’ers and learners who go all out. Knicks would need to convince themselves of the long term value in Wiseman and that his knee is AOK.

GS gets a PF who is a ball mover, rebounder, extra scorer, bully, and spacer. Allows Green to play more SF. Mitch adds a defender who can guard out to the perimeter and would be a dunk machine on this team of passers. After 2 years off of basketball, gives Thompson some time to really slowly come back without needing to carry a scoring load. GS also get 2 guys who were definitive cogs in a premier defense; shores up their frontcourt. GS also gets a younger player in Randle who maybe they could convince before trade to extend his contract NOW at max for 3 years with 4th as an option (starting at $26M seems fair value for Julius). They get playoff certainty, a balanced lineup, possible trade exception, lots of luxury tax savings. Team goes from $40M in contracts to $23M; no idea the trade logistics but Knicks got cap room and I think GS can come away with trade exception to possibly use later. Randle becomes an outlet player instead of a team focus, his stats will go down but his efficiency will go up now that he is a 3rd or so option on team. Mitch gets some guys who are HUGE spacers and passers and his offense is enhanced because of that and next to Green he is better on the court defender; GS has to believe Mitch can stay on court enough but I think they have enough small ball bigs. GS adds a value guy like Chris Duarte to their rotation at #19. Maybe they demand the #32 also and get a players like Miles McBride for their bench too.

Knicks scouting staff would have to convince me that there are 2 guys in the #7 and #14 who are consensus picks by the staff that will fulfill upside. Between picks #7, 14, 21, 32 I would want 2 guards and a big. Players who go all out and maybe that would still be a team that Thibs and staff could coach up. Use #21 or 32 to move up or down or back into another draft as need be.

I like Keon Johnson and Garuba as defensive, high energy/motor guys with upside. Staff would have to let me know what they think of Scottie, Moody, Davion, if Keon is not their choice. Keon reminds me of a different Dywane Wade and his shot will just take time. I think Garuba is there at #14 and I like his switchability, endless motor, huge frame, and ability to possibly guard 1-5. Staff would need to convince me that Garuba has the on-court defensive coordinator upside and that his shot is workable.

Maybe the Knicks want to solidify the PG spot with Davion and a SF at #14 with a big pick amongst trio of Kai, Garuba, Isiah Jackson falling to #21.

Maybe they can use the #21 to move the #14 up a few spots to grab that second high level guy they love. Davion, Moody (or Wagner).

Maybe draft wing at #7 in Keon, Giddy at #14. Backcourt of Keon, RJ, Giddy.

Knicks core players of Wiseman, RJ, IQ, Obi, #7, #14 are all between 19 and 23. Start Wiseman, PF, Wiggins, RJ, PG. Bench: IQ, Keon, Garuba, Luca, Obi. I'd use cap space on PF, PG, and wing shooter vets.

Next season will be a painful growth one but fans would love the hustle and grit.

martin wrote:Going to put forth a Knicks-GS trade structure. Provide some outlines and reasoning to it. Make it your own by adjusting to what you think both teams would find palpable and why. IMHO it’s the picks that would be super adjustable.

Randle, Mitch, #19 for Andrew Wiggins, Wiseman, #7, #14

Knicks do this to fully reset around a young team and upgrade talent pool. Must swallow 2 years of Wiggins contract ($31.5M, $33.5M). FO and Brock love it, Thibs will steam at a young team but the coaching staff overall will step up to push and hone a team of listson’ers and learners who go all out. Knicks would need to convince themselves of the long term value in Wiseman and that his knee is AOK.

GS gets a PF who is a ball mover, rebounder, extra scorer, bully, and spacer. Allows Green to play more SF. Mitch adds a defender who can guard out to the perimeter and would be a dunk machine on this team of passers. After 2 years off of basketball, gives Thompson some time to really slowly come back without needing to carry a scoring load. GS also get 2 guys who were definitive cogs in a premier defense; shores up their frontcourt. GS also gets a younger player in Randle who maybe they could convince before trade to extend his contract NOW at max for 3 years with 4th as an option (starting at $26M seems fair value for Julius). They get playoff certainty, a balanced lineup, possible trade exception, lots of luxury tax savings. Team goes from $40M in contracts to $23M; no idea the trade logistics but Knicks got cap room and I think GS can come away with trade exception to possibly use later. Randle becomes an outlet player instead of a team focus, his stats will go down but his efficiency will go up now that he is a 3rd or so option on team. Mitch gets some guys who are HUGE spacers and passers and his offense is enhanced because of that and next to Green he is better on the court defender; GS has to believe Mitch can stay on court enough but I think they have enough small ball bigs. GS adds a value guy like Chris Duarte to their rotation at #19. Maybe they demand the #32 also and get a players like Miles McBride for their bench too.

Knicks scouting staff would have to convince me that there are 2 guys in the #7 and #14 who are consensus picks by the staff that will fulfill upside. Between picks #7, 14, 21, 32 I would want 2 guards and a big. Players who go all out and maybe that would still be a team that Thibs and staff could coach up. Use #21 or 32 to move up or down or back into another draft as need be.

I like Keon Johnson and Garuba as defensive, high energy/motor guys with upside. Staff would have to let me know what they think of Scottie, Moody, Davion, if Keon is not their choice. Keon reminds me of a different Dywane Wade and his shot will just take time. I think Garuba is there at #14 and I like his switchability, endless motor, huge frame, and ability to possibly guard 1-5. Staff would need to convince me that Garuba has the on-court defensive coordinator upside and that his shot is workable.

Maybe the Knicks want to solidify the PG spot with Davion and a SF at #14 with a big pick amongst trio of Kai, Garuba, Isiah Jackson falling to #21.

Maybe they can use the #21 to move the #14 up a few spots to grab that second high level guy they love. Davion, Moody (or Wagner).

Maybe draft wing at #7 in Keon, Giddy at #14. Backcourt of Keon, RJ, Giddy.

Knicks core players of Wiseman, RJ, IQ, Obi, #7, #14 are all between 19 and 23. Start Wiseman, PF, Wiggins, RJ, PG. Bench: IQ, Keon, Garuba, Luca, Obi. I'd use cap space on PF, PG, and wing shooter vets.

Next season will be a painful growth one but fans would love the hustle and grit.

I proposed a similar modeling for a trade with GS in the offseason thread. I think there is a lot of merit to it for both sides. And I think the Knicks will be better sooner than expected.

My gut is that Randle will actually be traded this offseason. Can’t tell you where or how for certain. Feels like they fattened him up for the kill (proverbially speaking). Padded his stats a bit with a heliocentric offensive model. If I had to guess, it’s to GS for Wiggins and the Minnesota pick if it passes to GS. Including Mitch Robinson, Wiseman and picks could make sense for both sides. GS gets TPEs and vet players. Knicks get a core squad going forward.

I like your addition of the 19 and 14. Moving up there actually might benefit both sides as we take on more salary and a better pick, but I think that tier of players runs through 27 or so.

I thinking shifting that heliocentric model to Barrett is a stronger position long term. He is less prone to forcing shots. I love your thoughts. I’d try and work Jericho Sims into the model as his combine knocked my socks off.

With that said I don’t think the Knicks are trading Randle and Mitch. At most they may move one or the other.

Randle and 19 for 7 and 14 feels more fair. They get a PF who fits their timeline and can draft one more piece, Knicks get two Lottery picks and keep 21.

BigDaddyG wrote:I like the general idea, but I think this deal needs more tweaking. Green isn't playing small forward and would likely have to go if GSW went forward. I think the deal could be simplified.I think GSW would definitely consider some kind of package involving Mitch, maybe a sign and trade for Bullock, for maybe Oubre and Wiseman. Maybe include a package of the Knicks picks for one of their lottery picks. GSW would use the other pick to package Wiggins for another vet elsewhere.

Why can't Green play SF?

Or, why can't Green/Randle play C/PF in a small ball lineup?

I don't think GS are packaging Wiggins with a pick to get a vet. You need cap space for that to make sense or zero luxury tax savings. Offer up a possibility that makes sense.

Also don't understand any reasoning behind why Mitch would be swapped for Wiseman and trash. GS does not do that trade at all. Wiseman has much more value as a former #2 with 3 more years left while Mitch can leave as an UFA the following year and Knicks can outright sign Oubre.

EwingsGlass wrote:
I proposed a similar modeling for a trade with GS in the offseason thread. I think there is a lot of merit to it for both sides. And I think the Knicks will be better sooner than expected.

My gut is that Randle will actually be traded this offseason. Can’t tell you where or how for certain. Feels like they fattened him up for the kill (proverbially speaking). Padded his stats a bit with a heliocentric offensive model. If I had to guess, it’s to GS for Wiggins and the Minnesota pick if it passes to GS. Including Mitch Robinson, Wiseman and picks could make sense for both sides. GS gets TPEs and vet players. Knicks get a core squad going forward.

I like your addition of the 19 and 14. Moving up there actually might benefit both sides as we take on more salary and a better pick, but I think that tier of players runs through 27 or so.

I thinking shifting that heliocentric model to Barrett is a stronger position long term. He is less prone to forcing shots. I love your thoughts. I’d try and work Jericho Sims into the model as his combine knocked my socks off.

So I either do not understand or just don't know college players well enough to tier them out. But broadly, when people generalize by saying 14-27 may be the next tier, I don't fully buy it.

Guys may fall who you don't expect but I think teams should be targeting players they like and would like on their roster, maybe that player has a range he will be drafted in but I don't equate that out.

I would want my scouting team to target players and then figure out where he may go by gaming out what other teams would generally pick and then have alternate players to target if your main guy(s) are not there.

martin wrote:

wargames wrote:I crap on Randle a lot but I don’t like that trade. At most send two assets between Randle, Mitch, and 19

With that said I don’t think the Knicks are trading Randle and Mitch. At most they may move one or the other.

Randle and 19 for 7 and 14 feels more fair. They get a PF who fits their timeline and can draft one more piece, Knicks get two Lottery picks and keep 21.

I don't get the trade you are proposing. Randle, #19 for who plus #7, #14? Cause GS is over the cap and you need to send someone to the Knicks.

Wiggins, 7 and 14

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:

wargames wrote:I crap on Randle a lot but I don’t like that trade. At most send two assets between Randle, Mitch, and 19

With that said I don’t think the Knicks are trading Randle and Mitch. At most they may move one or the other.

Randle and 19 for 7 and 14 feels more fair. They get a PF who fits their timeline and can draft one more piece, Knicks get two Lottery picks and keep 21.

I don't get the trade you are proposing. Randle, #19 for who plus #7, #14? Cause GS is over the cap and you need to send someone to the Knicks.

Wiggins, 7 and 14

I don't even understand the value of Wiseman v Mitch other than what their salaries are and just throw it out there with the feeling that Wiseman has more value and that's why the Knicks would want to swap.

Wiseman has a guaranteed 3 year deal left. Mitch has 1 at uber low cost. The swap of both guys could have benefits for both teams. Wiseman: 3 year contract, unrealized potential to be a 2-way player who is a deep threat. Mitch, you know a little more about what you are getting as a player for next year. Low salary. Luxury tax savings which will be a LOT. Much better defensive player and rebounder (I think). Possible extra trade exception. On a team like GS, solid probability of re-sign at value to play on contending team (or maybe not).

If Mitch does not come back with a change to his offensive arsenal after this offseason he is a deficit situation for the Knicks IMHO.

martin wrote:Knicks core players of Wiseman, RJ, IQ, Obi, #7, #14 are all between 19 and 23. Start Wiseman, PF, Wiggins, RJ, PG. Bench: IQ, Keon, Garuba, Luca, Obi. I'd use cap space on PF, PG, and wing shooter vets.

By FA vets I would mean Richaun Holmes at PF and I'd now be less uncomfortable with making Ball an offer at PG but I'd have to think on that. Obi would get a lot more opportunities at playing time too.

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:

wargames wrote:I crap on Randle a lot but I don’t like that trade. At most send two assets between Randle, Mitch, and 19

With that said I don’t think the Knicks are trading Randle and Mitch. At most they may move one or the other.

Randle and 19 for 7 and 14 feels more fair. They get a PF who fits their timeline and can draft one more piece, Knicks get two Lottery picks and keep 21.

I don't get the trade you are proposing. Randle, #19 for who plus #7, #14? Cause GS is over the cap and you need to send someone to the Knicks.

Wiggins, 7 and 14

I don't even understand the value of Wiseman v Mitch other than what their salaries are and just throw it out there with the feeling that Wiseman has more value and that's why the Knicks would want to swap.

Wiseman has a guaranteed 3 year deal left. Mitch has 1 at uber low cost. The swap of both guys could have benefits for both teams. Wiseman: 3 year contract, unrealized potential to be a 2-way player who is a deep threat. Mitch, you know a little more about what you are getting as a player for next year. Low salary. Luxury tax savings which will be a LOT. Much better defensive player and rebounder (I think). Possible extra trade exception. On a team like GS, solid probability of re-sign at value to play on contending team (or maybe not).

If Mitch does not come back with a change to his offensive arsenal after this offseason he is a deficit situation for the Knicks IMHO.

You have a valid point. I guess it would have to come down to how well a defender they think Wiseman can become. I know they want a Big who can shoot the three, but Mitch’s defensive versatility is underrated. If wiseman is not a liability on the perimeter it does make sense, he wouldn’t have to be nearly as good at Mitch, just not someone guards hunt off switches.